Talk:Contentious Allies

Groups/movements that don’t live up to our ethical standard, but who we may find useful to collaborate with to achieve our campaign goals.

Animal rights legislation

More expensive high welfare regulation

Work with welfare reformists where we can help make the industry less profitable.

Speceisist slaughter/hunting abolition

Advise better messaging in campaigns such as against yulin dog meat festival and whaling.

Wildlife Habitat Expansion

Shoot hunting & pole fishing

So types of hunting and horse riding under the title of allies in achieving the goal of wildlife habitat expansion, so for example a shoot hunting club with a lot of members is able to buy up a lot of farm land and they achieve it with grants from the government because vegans have been petitioning to restore that area to wetland, I'd see that as a win. Then just hope our advocacy further down the line stop's people hunting altogether. I'm not for allying with blood-sports like fox hunting or animal entertainment like horse racing.

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Hunting groups generally only do things that benefit hunting. Sometimes this involves creating habitats that sustain more animals, but the objective is basically always to boost their numbers so there are more to hunt. We should firmly oppose this.

Yes we should still advocate against artificially boosted numbers of deer, but all still while being happy that we were able to help convert farmland back to a thriving eco-system, which is a step in the right direction.

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Shoot hunting like for subsistance or supplement your pantry on the cheap isn't done for sport, so wouldn't fit the definition of a blood sport. I think it's honestly tricky and has to do with intent. I think the order by which we focus to bring the most amount of people to veganism in the shortest amount of time is:

   Blood sports

   Animal farming

   Shoot hunting

We can politicize the sadism of activities such as bull fighting and fox hunting, done to get to enjoy dogs ripping apart another dog species for no reason.

Then the confinement/ forced breeding in animal farming.

Then the least objectionable ecologically, where the animal has lived a good life and hunter is at least taking responsibility for what they're eating. But still obviously ending a life earlier than necessary so not something you should want to do.

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Why is "wildlife management" considered a vegan gray area but "invasive species hunting" considered "not living up to ethical standards?" Surely, hunting invasive species is at least as ethically justifiable as hunting in general

Wildlife management can mean absolutely necessary culling with a plan to solve the problem as quickly as possible.

wildlife management can also mean unnecessary culling. whereas invasive species hunting i would argue is always a good thing even if motivated by reasons not related to ecology.

No as categories both can be done badly, but invasive species hunting is certainly not always good, people can be terrible shots and torture the animals or develop a sadistic joy from it which they transfer onto people like the high rate of slaughtehouse workers who commit domestic violence. At the end of the day you just shouldn't want to involve yourself in killing, you should cherish the wonder of every life you can observe in nature, if another animal kills a prey species 5 minutes later for survival and the only way it can get strong to pass on it's genes, then that's all wonderful too and it's 5 minutes extra alive.

Yeah but what I don't understand is... All of that applies to ordinary hunting as well?

I guess what you meant by "wildlife management" is genuinely intelligent caring wildlife management and not just a generic term which is often an excuse, in that case I 100% agree

Yeah I'm thinking of trained and researched wildlife officers following the best plan available.

Wild animal farming

By way of re-introducing the indigenous animals that are better suited to the environment, like musk ox in canada rather than cows which have to be kept in sheds most of the year.

Dog sledding and horse riding

Against blood sports and other competitive animal sports, which should be first in line to go as we're able to get the most public support behind ending them.

Potential to work with horse riding and dog sledding trainers, who can be part of an eco-tourist attraction and help pay for land to be freed up for wildlife and managed.

Foxhound drag-hunt racecourse & Bloodhound hunting

Foxhound drag hunting clubs have been around since the 1800s and are courses that horse, rider and foxhounds simply ride around with interesting obstacles. The more courses like it that country social life can form around, the more foxes get saved from actual fox hunting clubs who are pretending to trail hunt an artificial scent.

Bloodhounds are dogs which follow the scent of humans and are used in search and rescue.

Sighthounds, coonhounds, pointers, retrievers, ferreting & falconry to eat

No compromise with torture for example domesticated animals bred solely to help hunters by using non-lethal bites to pin the prey. Or in the case of lifelong wild animal confinement e.g. Elephant logging, plus cormorant and otter fishing.

Potential to work with shoot hunting communities that use dogs simply to scent track, point, flush, corner or retrieve prey. As well as communities who allow sighthounds and ferrets to catch prey as they would in the wild, as well as those who keep birds of prey for a short time which gives them a better chance of surviving their first few winters.

Low Impact Lifestyle

Locavore

The most important positive attribute to acknowledge about this lifestyle is it's another broad food category that in it's wholefood form is easy to distinguish on the shelf. Therefore experimenting with the diet doesn't need to feel like a burden to take on board in the same way researching and seeking out conflict-free minerals in everything you buy can be for example.

Also of those whose reasons for wanting to be vegan encompass the environment, it's good to acknowledge how you can be using multiple metrics to align your actions with your principles.

This helps vegans to be seen for a diverse group drawing upon many philosophies and not the stereotype of a purity club where the sole purpose is to funnel you down more restrictive levels of the same monolithic ideology.

So in tern if we look at what motivates a majority of locavores e.g. community cohesion, climate change, etc. We can then relate how the most environmental friendly vegan diet of course incorporates local food schemes to cut down on fossil fuel use in transport. As well as mention how locavores can draw upon veganism in seeking to satisfy the environmental reasons they decided to eat more locally in the first place.

Reducitarian

More psychologically inviting, but does the label long term hinder people from ever making concrete steps? And do we lessen the chance of making new vegans who will get organized and make some of the next big innovative differences?

Vegetarian

Vegan under the radar, distance from some polarizing vegan activism.

Them helping us tailor our advocacy to people eating meat against their own religious code.

Us helping them see how the the practical inclusion of animal products as ceremonial today should be avoided for not holding the same historical context.

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