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| − | == Impractical to follow ==
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| − | === Independence from Substantive Ethical Premises ===
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| − | Isaac claims this argument works on the basis of essentially no substantive ethical premises other than (1) one's view that one is of value - as manifest by one's resistance to being killed - and one's (2) conviction that one would not lose value if one were to lose any of the traits that one currently has but (sentient) animals lack - as manifest, it seems, by one's simply wanting not to be killed if one were to lack those traits.<br>
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| − | If true, that would be extremely impressive - particularly if one were committed to valuing oneself simply in virtue of one's having a desire / propensity to resist being killed. It might be the most impressive argument created for anything in philosophy, let alone veganism. As is often the case, if something seems too good to be true it probably is.<br>
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| − | Unfortunately this desire for a one-size-fits-all argument has led him to an argument that fails in so many ways it achieves a state of fractal wrongness -- outlined in [[#Issues|issues]]. The attempt to dispense with dependence upon substantive premises found in other normative arguments in order to create the ''best'' argument ever has instead resulted in what is at best a failed attempt to dispense with such premises (which ends up looking a lot like the argument from less able humans / "marginal cases") and what is at worse an extremely unconvincing argument. Some speculate that his rejection of corrections and insistence in his argument's soundness in its present form is a consequence of that monomaniacal focus on independence from substantive ethical premises (others may attribute it to general arrogance and refusal to admit to errors of any kind).<br>
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| − | However, calling something independent doesn't make it so. The way he uses this argument and the way it's *supposed to* work (despite its non sequitur and other fallacies) demonstrates a series of hidden premises. And while some of these hidden premises Isaac agrees with -- even claiming a few are just definitions -- he doesn't realize the substantive ethical implications of these hidden premises, and how they contradict his own claimed positions.<br>
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| − | For his part, on a personal level Isaac He claims to be a moral [[subjectivist]] (specifically an "ontological subjectivist, and an epistemological objectivist"), his definition of these terms is colloquial and incorrect in the context of philosophy because it generates contradictions and false dichotomies of its own (see [[objective-subjective distinction]]), but where it really stands out as a problem is its conflict with the substantive ethical assumptions necessitated by #NameTheTrait (if it is to function in any capacity the way he believes it does), and more specifically a conflict with his own [[#Personal_Contradictions|deontological views]]).
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| − | Brief outline of necessary substantive ethical assumptions:<br>
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| − | #Rejection of value on the basis of arbitrary traits. Obviously P2 needs another premise to function, although Isaac believes some kind of [[#Circular_References|circular reference]] is adequate instead.
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| − | #Assertion of the view that non-arbitrary traits must be traits such that, if one were to lack them, one would be willing to agree that one would lack moral value. This may be functionally because he believes a double standard is a [[#Logical_Contradiction_Meaning|"logical contradiction"]]
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| − | #Assertion of one's having moral value, and one's having it even if one were to lack certain traits. He does not seem to realize that one could desire to be treated in a certain way even if one did not have value that would give others good reasons to treat one in that way. E.g. he seems to have overlooked the response 'I don't have moral value; you'd be justified in killing me, it's just that I reasonably don't want that to happen - much like, if we were in a chess game, and you were about to check-mate me, you'd be justified in doing that, but I'd reasonably want that not to happen.' In practice, this may be due to his denial of valid [[#Dissonant_Actions|dissonant actions]], but can also be derived from his [[#The_Brick_Analogy|brick analogy]].
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| − | #Assertion of deontological moral evaluation due to [[#Pt2_P2_Empirically_False|assertions of P2]] in the second part of the argument.
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| − | Beyond his actions and claims which clearly indicate these positions, the mere fact that Isaac believes that it is ''possible'' to construct any kind of persuasive and logically valid normative argument outside a specified meta-ethical system should be demonstration enough.
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| | = White Board = | | = White Board = |
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| − | Working on my own youtube channel project at the moment, but assume some will eventually filter into pages on [[Companion Animal Care]], [[Environmentalist]], [[Consequentialist]], [[Virtue]] and [[Nihilist]]. So really happy to get suggestions.
| + | |- |
| − | | + | ||[https://www.youtube.com/user/russellbrand Russell Brand] |
| − | | + | ||1.7M |
| − | = Unnatural Vegan vs. à-bas-le-ciel On Domestication =
| + | |- |
| − | | + | ||[https://www.youtube.com/user/JimSterling Jim Sterling] |
| − | '''Unnatural Vegan
| + | ||812K |
| − | | + | |- |
| − | Accessible Advocacy:'''
| + | ||[https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCG1h-Wqjtwz7uUANw6gazRw Lindsay Ellis] |
| − | You’re vegan, already got a cat and only just thinking about the implications of feeding them meat, no point stressing, try to get waste meat from butchers and let’s look out for a research team to fund a kick-starter to get better vegan/mostly vegan cat food.
| + | ||690K |
| − | You want to rescue omniv/herbiv pet? Not effective altruism but might improve your well-being and compassion towards nonhuman animals, go you.
| + | |- |
| − | No harm breeding dogs if return to stable world population.
| + | ||[https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCNvsIonJdJ5E4EXMa65VYpA Contra Points] |
| − | Advocates against cat adoption on basis of oblig carniv, diseases, etc.
| + | ||620K |
| − | | + | |- |
| − | '''Energy:'''
| + | ||[https://www.youtube.com/user/SamSeder The Majority Report w/ Sam Seder] |
| − | Give to mercy for animals, fund possible vegan cat food kickstarter, more accessible sanctuaries, adopt if it’s important to you.
| + | ||565K |
| − | | + | |- |
| − | '''Questions: '''
| + | ||[https://www.youtube.com/user/democracynow Democracy Now!] |
| − | In an ideal future are you against all predation e.g. lions eating antelopes? In a future where we’re not reliant on animals in any way (e.g, bees for pollination) would they like to see all land taken up by humans with only a few reserve habitats for museum purposes?
| + | ||540K |
| − | | + | |- |
| − | '''a-bas-le-ciel
| + | ||[https://www.youtube.com/user/tomwalker78 Jonathan Pie] |
| − | | + | ||532K |
| − | Productivity/ Goals:'''
| + | |- |
| − | Maximizing ability to use all of our/their capabilities/character virtue of humans and non-human animals: not about settling or everyone as individuals reducing suffering around them, but a political movement to move from livestock and pet industry to getting well managed wildlife habitat, where the most amount of animals can fill their needs.
| + | ||[https://youtube.com/channel/UClt01z1wHHT7c5lKcU8pxRQ HBomber Guy] |
| − | | + | ||425K |
| − | '''Psychology:'''
| + | |- |
| − | Child-like dependent domesticated animals being something distasteful that we wouldn’t wish on humans so why other animals?
| + | ||[https://www.youtube.com/user/PlaceauPeuple JEAN-LUC MÉLENCHON] |
| − | | + | ||415K |
| − | '''Symbolically:'''
| + | |- |
| − | Having pets is like walking around with 2nd hand leather, someone irresponsibly bred it, you’re perpetuating the industry.
| + | ||[https://youtube.com/channel/UC2PA-AKmVpU6NKCGtZq_rKQ Philosophy Tube] |
| − | | + | ||400K |
| − | '''Energy:'''
| + | |- |
| − | Don’t adopt pets like video games or drugs.
| + | ||[https://www.youtube.com/user/TheRealNews The Real News Network] |
| − | Provide options to fulfil some of herb pets needs even if risks disease or predation.
| + | ||325K |
| − | Open a vegan bakery/restaurant before opening a sanctuary, acknowledges useful revenue source from running shelter that can go into advocacy.
| + | |- |
| − | | + | ||[https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCM0V8r4kuIWIl6Sy-NHj2lg Quinton Reviews] |
| − | '''Question:''' Got a wealth of videos and patreon feed so I think I have everything, but be useful to read what questions are felt left unanswered after watching 1 or 2 videos from Eisel.
| + | ||322K |
| − | | + | |- |
| − | | + | ||[https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyNtlmLB73-7gtlBz00XOQQ Folding Ideas] |
| − | == Quotes ==
| + | ||285K |
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| − | | + | ||[https://www.youtube.com/user/petercoffin Peter Coffin] |
| − | === Practical/ Individual Advice ===
| + | ||255K |
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| − | [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQXzcPt3CT4 Can cats and dogs eat a vegan diet? (why Sniff still eats meat) ] | + | ||[https://youtube.com/channel/UCJ6o36XL0CpYb6U5dNBiXHQ Shaun] |
| − | | + | ||240K |
| − | of course loving our pets means doing the best we can for them and doing the best we can for them we think means feeding them lots of meat but no matter how much we love our cats and our dogs it doesn't negate reality it doesn't negate the fact that feeding them meat means supporting the torture and destruction of other animals animals that think and feel just like our companion animals do if we can reduce or even eliminate that suffering by feeding our pets a plant-based diet shouldn't we at least try to do that?
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| − | | + | ||[https://www.youtube.com/user/thejuicemedia thejuicemedia] |
| − | so it probably seems that I am 100% in favor of feeding dogs and cats a vegan diet when it comes to dogs that's true while obviously you cannot feed them a diet of rice and potatoes or whatever other nonsense that some people promote it is consensus and veterinary nutrition that dogs can be healthy on a plant-based diet as long as it meets a FCO guidelines and this really is not too surprising considering that a majority a huge number of commercial dog foods that contain meat also contain a high amount of plant foods like rice and corn and luckily there are a lot of commercial options available including from very large brands like Purina cats are more complicated unfortunately and when it comes to actual research on cats eating and all plant diet there just isn't that much there have been some studies have been done but the sample sizes are always fall and what is tested is usually rather limited
| + | ||226K |
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| − | so I've said a lot here and what what does it all mean exactly um it means that I do not feel 100% comfortable feeding my cat a vegan diet an all vegan diet if there were more brands available from trustworthy company specifically brands from larger companies with better quality control if there were more you know research on cats eating vegan diets with larger sample sizes and whatnot then I would probably feel differently but as it stands now I do not feed sniff a vegan diet
| + | ||[https://www.youtube.com/user/redactedtonight Redacted Tonight] |
| − | | + | ||200K |
| − | the good news is that just like we don't have to go completely vegan to reduce animal suffering our cats don't either just like the people at vegan cats calm and the author of obligate carnivore Jed Gillen recommend just reducing the amount of meat in our cat's diets it makes a difference the easiest way to do this is to feed some commercial vegan cat food you know veggie cat or Amy or bin a vote or a combination of the three you know occasionally rotating the three probably the best thing to do so feeding that along with a commercial you know meat-based diet preferably a canned a wet variety to increase the moisture content in their overall diet and preferably one of the cheaper brands the cheaper varieties so like Friskies or nine lies as opposed to the premium brands the former often have meat byproducts listed as primary ingredients these are parts of the animals that would traditionally go to waste if not for use in animal feed often these are products of factory farming that cannot legally be sold for human consumption the premium brands on the other hand often have animals killed specifically for the pet food another option that was actually brought up during the vegan option podcast on this topic is oysters because they are very likely not sentient to talk about this here they're also much more environmentally friendly they are a much better option in terms of feeding cats you know meat when it comes to suffering and sustainability if your cat will actually eat them mine will not to be clear I am NOT suggesting to feed your cat a diet of only oysters do not do this they will not get everything that they need will not be healthy you will have to supplement with some sort of you know fortified food you know the vegan variety like Amy or bin of our veggie cats something like that but really if you're going to do this if you want to do this please talk to your vet first yet another option is what butchers refer to as sawdust this is the leftover meat at the end of the day of grinding you know the stuff that just like falls out on the table and on the floor and they usually just throw it away I have been successful actually in contacting one butcher I contacted a lot the rest of them were like no we're not giving you that but I did find one who was totally cool with me it came he a lot actually to use it to feed to my cat and I told him that's why I was doing it you could tell you was kind of confused but he was fine with it I didn't have to pay anything so that was great there are three problems though the first one is that it's gross you know handling meats raw meat and everything it's a lot grosser than dealing with you know like a can of you know commercial meat based you know Friskies or whatever number two it's really hard to make it tasty like cubic and cat food is and number three feeding it you know obviously you cannot feed it on its own just like with oysters they will not get everything that they need but even feeding it along with you know vegan cat food Amy or boniva or whatever else it may not be adequate because again meat is not necessarily a good source of tarring a lot is lost in terms of the processing and the freezing and thawing so probably feeding some sort of multivitamin that includes tarring would be a good idea but again please do not just do this on your own for both the oysters and the sawdust since these are not commercially available foods formulated specifically for cats please do not take this into your own hands if you want to try to feed some sort of sawdust vegan cat food or oyster vegan cat food type thing please talk to your vet first
| + | |- |
| − | | + | ||[https://www.youtube.com/user/TransDIYer Kat Blaque] |
| − | I may be more biased against vegan cat foods again I have a fair amount of experience with UTIs and cats the very significant terrible example that I don't ever want to relive and so I may be attributing more terribleness the possible terribleness to vegan diets than is actually warranted I tried my best to be very unbiased with this and to look at all the research available and including the anecdotes and these brands and everything else but it's tough for me and really even for myself you know if I had if sniff were a female I would probably I would probably be less concerned and I would probably try him on an all vegan diet still obviously feeding commercially-available likely occasionally rotating you know among a me and bin of oh and veggie cat just to reduce you know risk of any sort of deficiency and then also of course monitoring the ph just be safe taking him to a vet to make sure that's done properly but again my concern would be less than what it is with a male cat a male cat who has had a mild instance of UTI in the past and finally if you don't currently have a cat or any pet or looking for a pet my best advice would be to go for a non meat-eating animal you know something like a rabbit or even a pig or something or a dog again an animal that can you know easily eat a vegan diet and that said if you if you really want a cat which I totally understand cats are the best things ever um probably go for a female cat and you know try to feed as little meat as possible
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| − | [https://www.patreon.com/posts/q-a2-part-5-cats-5830203 Q&A2 (Part 5!) Cats Eating Cows (“Pet Food”).] | + | ||[https://www.youtube.com/user/mrskimps Innuendo Studios] |
| − | | + | ||195K |
| − | so what is the mature attitude to take towards these things as I've said in many many videos it's just to admit there are some problems we can't solve overnight whether we're talking about you know vivisection you know scientific research exploiting animals or you know there are there are all kinds of nasty horrible grey areas and vegans were killing insects in order to raise fruit killing animals in order to raise through because you got to kill mammals a lot of time on a farm had actually had what intelligent comment in the Q&A; but it wasn't really a question but a guy talked about his own experience working on an organic farm and you know guess what you kill animals if not every day certainly every week you're killing mammals as well as killing insects the whole process of farming yeah okay there are contradictions veganism is not some perfect mathematical formula where you manage to do zero harm and achieve a perfect spiritual good it's not veganism is you know as messy and internally contradictory as anything else that involves ethics ecology agriculture social change life is not perfect and of course they're all the other connotations to they're all all the time I get questions you know people want to ask me about the ethics of how clothing factors are pretty fine good question but it's not veganism you know you want to talk about war great but it's not fitting to them so if veganism doesn't solve all problems and you shouldn't hold up veganism next to a perfect or ideal standard the other point is the fact that there are no perfect solutions doesn't mean there are no solutions doesn't mean there's nothing you can do doesn't mean you're disempowered by this discourse you can feel empowered by recognizing the contradictions and embracing imperfect solutions for imperfect and messy problems so one of my fans here I think she's no longer with us I think she's quit the patreon but one of my fans on patreon wrote me that she was really inspired by what I had to say about pet ownership and she looked at her own situation with her pet rabbits so these were rabbits that were rescued not bought but she did acquire the rabbits in order to entertain her children so you know they rescued but again ultimately like zoo animals or like circus animals these animals are being kept alive you know to entertain human beings as a coot Ramon for um you know a bourgeois a human life style they're not they're not being reintroduced into the wild they're not being yeah they don't exist to have their own children to live their own lives to you know pray and be preyed upon you know they are being kept they are being domesticated for our entertainment so we can quote love unquote them uh-huh but she had followed up to before she saw my video she had followed the advice of vets who told her that the the rabbit should I should kept entirely indoors their whole lives and the vets have the reasons for that if the rabbits are outdoors they may be preyed upon you know a bird a bird of prey can come down and kill them a fox or a badger or I think even a raccoon can come in and kill a rabbit if it's in your backyard if it's outdoors and I think there are some other reason some of the diseases they can get from going out freely and and eating eating wild grass would okay so you know there's a rationale there for why that would say that um but this fan of mine she watched my videos and she thought about it and the basic point I made you know like about penguins yeah life is full of contradictions sometimes for various reasons you end up having to keep Penguins in captivity to prevent them from going extinct or to try to keep them temporarily until they can be reduced reintroduced into the wild there's been a disaster you know an oil tanker has covered their habitat with oil and we've got to keep them in captivity until they can go back to living in the ocean all kinds of reasons but what do you do with those penguins you don't chop their balls off and try to turn them into house pets you don't try to turn them into zoo creatures or entertainment or circus performers you don't try to domesticate them until they're cute and lovable and sit on your couch patiently while you watch TV try to make them in abdomen you try to keep them in a habitat that is as close as possible to what their conditions in the wild would be which can be extremely expensive and extremely difficult to provide an artificial habitat for four penguins very very difficult so you know this fan of mine looking at our own rabbits these rabbits had lived their whole lives on a concrete floor they'd never had the experience of digging in the soft earth they never looked up and seen a blue sky over their heads terribly sad so she did what she could she actually went out and bought a hutch you know a small wooden house a miniature house for these rabbits put it in her backyard and she changed these rabbits lives by letting them roam freely around the backyard during the day and at night she puts them in the hutch and she you know she could see the rabbit all their behavior was totally transformed for the first time they got to indulge in some of their wild behaviour not all but they were in a context that was closer to their natural wild environment they got to dig in the earth I got to dig burrows they got to eat grass they got to nibble on dandelions and yes you know what it's possible that instead of living for a greater number of years on a concrete floor and never experiencing those things it's possible that one of these days a falcon will swoop down and kill the rabbits it's possible that some other predator is gonna kill them as possible their life will be cut short but you know what death is a part of life and I don't know how vegans can lack a mature attitude towards that
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| − | | + | ||[https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCH1dpzjCEiGAt8CXkryhkZg Bernie Sanders] |
| − | [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0R2JxmbOxk Your Dog Hates You: “Service Animals” and Airplane Pillows.] | + | ||188K |
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| − | is our vision of the future one in which the you know enslavement debasement the domestication of animals for food for companionship entertainment is that a perpetual part of our culture for the next 500 years next 1,000 years or do we as vegans see ourselves in a period of transition we're just like we want traditional we want to transition away from being a society that smoke cigarettes we also want to be in a transition that eventually brings about the end of the domestication of animals for me that's not a difficult question answer for me it is not difficult to say in the future I don't think dog should be pet it should be groomed or bread or castrated to be companions to human beings that's I don't know why that would be difficult for any vegan to give that answer but I did have one um one question come in here on YouTube from a longtime fan called twisted hippie he's a fan but again he doesn't mind disagree with me he doesn't mind you know criticizing me when he when he disagrees me which is great certainly welcome and several people commented that they found my answer to his question enlightening that will forever reason they didn't really understand my point to the domestication of animals until they read this um so I'm gonna read it out now I I don't know why that is but many people said this clarified management I agree but on a practical level what do we do with the rescue animals already existing no animals should be forced to live in a human home when it doesn't come close to its natural environment however if the alternative is euthanasia ? right so here's my reply to this guy I believe I have discussed this at sufficient length both on youtube and within patreon vis I agree but on a practical level what do we do with the rescue animals already existing the reality is that vegans don't have an answer for the question of what will we do with all the cows if the slaughterhouse owners suddenly became vegan and refuse to kill them we probably have no good answer as to what to do with farm animals if millions and millions of them suddenly could not be killed and could not be introduced to the wild etc and so pause obviously if even a single large farm owner suddenly declared that he wanted to do the right thing you want to save the lives of all of his cows several thousand cows those cows can't live in the forest what actually would you do as a vegan you personally if you suddenly had several thousand cows in your hands however we can recognize that this is really a spurious and unreasonable argument when meat-eaters raise it so if meteors say this to you as a reproach how can you possibly be vegan given that you have no solution for what to do with these animals today if all the slaughterhouse is closed today if all the meat producing factory farms closed today we can recognize that it's spurious and unreasonable why is it that we have so much difficulty in recognizing a precisely parallel problem in the domestication of animals as pets the end of the cycle of domestication like the end of the cycle of industrialized slaughter has to start somewhere and it has to start with someone I'm asking you sincerely to consider that it starts with us vegans but most of us are in a state of extreme denialism and can't even admit that this is a problem yet
| + | ||[https://www.youtube.com/user/jackreardonbond Jeremy Corbyn</a> ? |
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| − | [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWyrG-wSeH4&list=PLqRNOagVZDVedH8wZ-udB42EeP-55jvy3&index=33 Can Lucy go to a wild wolf sanctuary]
| + | ||[https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDPxVSjvT-KyQhAetmYTWcg Antastesia] |
| − | …...
| + | ||177K |
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| − | [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkgXbppLTyU Why vegans shouldn’t shop (adopt don’t shop, don’t buy from a breeder) ] | + | ||[https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvlj0IzjSnNoduQF0l3VGng Some More News] |
| − | | + | ||175K |
| − | so reading purchasing a cat from a breeder or breeding yourself intentionally breeding cats is not vegan I don't think that's very controversial or alien to say I mean I think most of us know if you want a pet adopt don't shop you know don't leave an animal to be euthanized to die in a shelter because you wanted a Maine Coon or a Persian or a hairless sphynx
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| − | | + | ||[https://www.youtube.com/user/chomskysphilosophy Chomsky's Philosophy] |
| − | but creating a carnivorous animal where there was none before is becoming the person who tied those animals to the track in the first place you are creating a moral dilemma where none existed that's not okay the only exception to this breeding issue might be if you are participating in some sort of
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| − | there are obviously medical exceptions for people who need assistance dogs you can see my video on medicine here in those cases buying a dog from a small breeder who treats the dog well that may be the only good option bomb sniffing dogs may be another reasonable exception but again if we're talking about pets if we're talking about just getting a breed for vanity just because you like the breed even if you do feed the animal vegan it's probably a wrong when you could have so easily and more cheaply just adopted
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| − | [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdDQsdS2gfE 7 Reasons Why Cats are Terrible Pets (Why I Will Not Adopt Another Cat) ]
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| − | in addition spaying and neutering can help to reduce the desire to roam that primal desire to Rome which can make your cats happier as indoor pets or at least less miserable the only thing more cruel than leaving a cat intact with a powerful sex drive and keeping it away from any mates would be to let the cat out doors to breed multiple generations of feral kittens who are doomed to suffer follow the Golden Rule here assuming you could never have sex you had no way to release any sexual frustration remember cats don't even have porn would you rather have a stronger sex drive or a weaker sex drive in such a situation I would want to be spayed or neutered to reduce my suffering.
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| − | In conclusion
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| − | If you must get a cat adopt and please get a female, get her spayed, never let her outside and do your best to feed her vegan. Beyond that try to make her tiny prison as engaging as possible and for you try to find some way to cope with your contribution to the billions of pounds of cat poops that's rotting in landfills every year.
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| − | So those are the reasons why I will not be adopting another cat as much as I love cats and I really do adore cats, I've never lived without, I'm really not a dog person, I know he spent all the time hyping up dogs but I really am a cat person, I just think they're so cool.
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| − | I haven't ever since I was a little baby we've had at least one cat so it does make me very sad to think that sometime very likely in the near future given sniffs very, very old, a hinge I will no longer have a cat that's very sad, but I just cannot reconcile all of the problems; the problems for the cat itself, for the environment, for the wildlife, for humans, I can't reconcile that with the benefits.
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| − | === Activism ===
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| − | [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQXzcPt3CT4 Can cats and dogs eat a vegan diet? (why Sniff still eats meat) ] | |
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| − | a near vegan kibble so what I really really wish is that there was some sort of near vegan kibble that I could give to my own cat and also recommend to you guys you know something that contained you know non sentient animals like oysters or worms or marginally sentient animals like insects that would be such a huge improvement you know something that was fully fortified and actually tested and contained all the nutrients that cats needs and also you know the big one did not increase the risk for you know crystal formation and urinary blockage so are there any DAC viens out there who could formulate something like that and are there any people with manufacturing experience who could actually produce this if there are you know maybe we could start a crowdfunding campaign I'm dead serious of this you know I think I think a lot of people would be interested in this not just vegans obviously not just people concerned about the ethics of feeding you know sentient animals to our annals but also people who are more interested in a more a more natural thing if it's like an insect based thing I think a lot of paleo people would be very interested in this insects are supposed to be very very healthy whatever I don't care what the reason is I think a lot of people would actually be really interested in this so again if anyone knows if this is actually possible please leave a comment down below or you can message me personally here on YouTube yeah that'd be awesome
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| − | but let's be real given the costs associated with adopting an animal this is a personal choice it's one that can be neutral ethically speaking and obviously beneficial to you and to the animal but it's not effective altruism
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| − | [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdDQsdS2gfE 7 Reasons Why Cats are Terrible Pets (Why I Will Not Adopt Another Cat) ]
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| − | not everybody wants to spend thousands of dollars creating a cat paradise and nor should they it's not a very good use of money when that money could save so many lives when it is devoted to more effective altruism like for instance giving it to Mercy for Animals which you could new right here
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| − | [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gm5nlzLiKCY Should vegans support zoos? Are they inherently cruel? ] | |
| − | | |
| − | unfortunately most farm sanctuaries are nonprofit and they are not very open to having people come to visit them I just looked at several near where we are and none of them are open to the public one is but it's like a only all the others they're looking for volunteers which is is great but if you're already going to volunteer you're probably already convinced that farm animals need help right you're probably already convinced you're probably already vegan right or at least hatchet Arian this isn't really appealing to the masses like the masses don't want to go and do work they want to go and experience a fun thing and look at some cute animals I guess my point is that I think a lot of these farm sanctuaries are missing a really big opportunity it costs so much money to care for these animals and it's really nice what they're doing but they could be reaching so many more people and doing so much more good and helping so many more animals if they allowed more people to come and visit and to actually see these animals because we know that this is one of the most important things we know that a lot of people credit their dogs and their cats with going vegetarian with giving up meat having a relationship with these animals I mean I can't imagine if more people could form relationships with the actual animals they're eating with cows and pigs and chickens that could just be incredible
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| − | | |
| − | [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rzXfdFDD9E&list=PLqRNOagVZDVedH8wZ-udB42EeP-55jvy3&index=22 Riddle of the Lion’s Roar Animal Sanctuaries, Zoos & Wildlife]
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| − | | |
| − | it's just one of these things what does the word abolition really mean what does the word sanctuary really mean I mean it's surreal the whole thing it's it's I I understand completely the sentimentality behind it I myself as a vegan i do care about animals but for me what makes sense is having animals die in the wild where other animals eat their corpse after they're dead it doesn't make sense to me to reproduce half of the problems with a farm and half of the problems of the zoo and to promote this animal sanctuary model as the solution to all our problems given given again that ultimately we have priorities we have limited amounts of money and everything else if I have the two hundred thousand dollars just even to compare the two humble examples okay buy a plot of land and open an animal sanctuary versus open a restaurants a vegan restaurant downtown somewhere let's say it's a vegan restaurant with a gym or something upstairs you know whatever and promote veganism you know to human beings uh to me you know the second option is much more meaningful as much more likely to really have a dynamic change in the world but still I mean I do understand why people want to have these these sanctuaries when I was in France I knew a couple of really hardcore vegan activists the one guy he had formerly been an employee of pettah for years they both just had years and years of experience with vegan activist of different kinds everything from giving pamphlets to lectures to showing movies they've done all kinds of vegan vegan activism and you know they also would go and volunteer at a sanctuary once in a while and they just said the reality of this sanctuary is because they don't kill the animals so they accept a certain number of animals and it's very finite how many horses can you really take care of for real-time money labor the food for the horses can you can you keep five forces maybe that's your capacity okay so you accept five horses and a certain number of dogs and a certain number of cats and a certain number of pigs and that's it and then the door is closed and those animals live for years and years until they die and then after that people including the people who donate money to you because somebody who's donated thousands of dollars to you phones you up and says look we've rescued this pig or the Sheep some circumstances there's the Sheep maybe it's a deer there's this animal in these circumstances anchor we want the dev put slip and you say no we can't help you we're already full and then the animal inevitably is either sent to a kill shelter so a shelter where it's kept alive for a couple of days for skilled or it's just shot in the head it hope this is the depressing day-to-day reality of animal sanctuary whether it's horses or whether they just do dogs or cats or what have you as I say for me the actual lives the animals that are on the sanctuary for me again it's better than some farms but it's it's very similar to some other farms including you know something like a petting zoo
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| − | | |
| − | | |
| − | === Advocacy ===
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| − | | |
| − | [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijsSdEP9zLE Vegans and the Indigenous Issue: Hunting, Domestication & the Concept of Evil.] | |
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| − | there was a time when again this is like really 15 years ago the insistence was instead on you know respecting animals meaning respecting their habitat respecting their independence respecting that a shark in nature will kill any human beings a tiger an elephant that we should be making room and planning the future of our society so that animals can live in wilderness but in this sense the baseline for what is a dog a dog is not man's best friend this paradigm was also insisting that we regard a dog naturally as a wild hunter as a predator and indeed I mean wild dogs they'll attack you and try to kill you and eat you still today in Africa
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| − | | |
| − | but this this really was refusing to take the view of animals as a toy as a plaything as something to be domesticated and cuddled and this really has disappeared today
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| − | the cuddly lamb the cuddly cute pig that's become of central symbolic significance to veganism today and you know pigs in the wild they're actually pretty terrifying if you run into an adult boar in the jungle you can indeed be attacked
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| − | | |
| − | but they were willing to admit of a difference there was a difference between a pig that lives its whole life wild and free in the forest with all of the joys and miseries of being a real authentic wild animal a pig that one day suddenly encounters a human being with a crossbow the human being kills that pig and eats it that from the old fashioned perspective really was qualitatively different from factory farming the sort of the disaggregated cycle of people buying meat as a finished product in a shop and not feeling any responsibility for killing the animal it's a much different set of psychological priorities as well as a different approach to political provocation or propaganda shall we say and today this has almost been inverted
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| − | | |
| − | [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtP98bAejow Domestication vs. “the Wild”: Vegans & the A.R. Paradigm]
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| − | I think with nobody really noticing it with nobody drawing a line on a map or turning a new chapter in a book we switched from a whole discourse that really cared about wilderness and even moderate ecologists and so on back then forest habitat though rainforest save the rainforest those were the big looming paradigms around everything in ecology and indeed even vegetarianism was promoted by saying save the rainforest stop eating beef that causes the rain forced to be cut down etc etc and again that's really much more based on lumber and less based on gaseous emissions but the idea of what is the proper relationship between human beings and animals in that paradigm is actually one of fear and mistrust and taking out a map and saying okay that area over there is for the elephants and tigers and this area over here is for human beings and fundamentally our job as human beings is to leave the animals alone is not to haunt them to extinction not to hunt it not to chop down their forests but it is also not to domesticate them not to use them as decorations for carpets not to use them as you know warm-blooded toy plaything teddy bear not to use them to entertain or children or what have you
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| − | | |
| − | [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOawDbvCPjw&index=1&list=PLZEkgohG7k7rpxzjaIVXoMvvVOrNU19VG Vegans don’t own pets: domestication and evil. ] | |
| − | | |
| − | [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOawDbvCPjw&index=1&list=PLZEkgohG7k7rpxzjaIVXoMvvVOrNU19VG Vegans don’t own pets: domestication and evil. ]
| |
| − | | |
| − | | |
| − | [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAHNs8iGTb8&t=261s Is Owning Pets Vegan? (vegans alienating everybody, including each other) ] | |
| − | | |
| − | | |
| − | [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vf84pTtVOMc I don’t hate Eisel, but I am disappointed.]
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| − | [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjS-0fBhQ1k&list=PLqRNOagVZDVedH8wZ-udB42EeP-55jvy3&index=15 7 ways vegans alienate everybody, including each other (bad vegan activism)]
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| − | | |
| − | | |
| − | [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q165EGMAFEo&t=3s Autonomy vs Dignity, Wildlife in Veganism and Ecology in the 21st century] | |
| − | | |
| − | | |
| − | [https://www.patreon.com/posts/dogs-vs-wolves-6574956 Dogs vs. Wolves: Vegan Ethics and the Future of Activism.]
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| − | | |
| − | [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Udd6sK0jiOY&list=PLZEkgohG7k7p-Gh60Ko_nM6-xSU3X20tU&index=7 Zoopolis: a NON-VEGAN Political Theory of Animal Rights ] | |
| − | | |
| − | | |
| − | [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8s8cNtcfEo Anthropomorphism, Domestication (of Pets) vs. the Wildlife Management Paradigm.]
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| − | | |
| − | | |
| − | [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syw4K32cCgk&t=1035s Q&A about my “Core Message”, Domestication vs. the Wild, etc., with Alejandro.] | |
| − | | |
| − | | |
| − | [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5O4xypPurs Veganism is NOT a Social Justice Movement.]
| |
| − | | |
| − | | |
| − | [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bfG2LTz3DE Come On, FhqwhFgads: Vegan Gains Feeds His Dog Meat.] | |
| − | | |
| − | | |
| − | [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=db2cDFu5Y1E&t=195s #DOGGATE: An Analysis (Vegan Gains vs. Vegan Cheetah)]
| |
| − | | |
| − | | |
| − | [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTIOeEWstDE Vegan Gains bought a wolf dog from a breeder & now feeds her meat ] | |
| − | | |
| − | | |
| − | === Psychology ===
| |
| − | | |
| − | [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6oQJdaeyNM Why Omnivore Outrage Over the Yulin Dog Meat Festival is Okay ]
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| − | | |
| − | <u>Veganism Compassion, Contempt and Loathing</u>
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| − | [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gm5nlzLiKCY Should vegans support zoos? Are they inherently cruel? ] | |
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| − | | |
| − | === Ethics ===
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| − | | |
| − | [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gm5nlzLiKCY Should vegans support zoos? Are they inherently cruel? ]
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| − | | |
| − | <u>RE: Why I Am Not a Vegan (the1janitor)</u>
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| − | [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNDXKbzN0i8&list=PLV9phP7EvKci7z9_kqgyThCYvNiDXUcqX&index=8 Tentative Vegan #1: What is Tentative Veganism? ] | |
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| − | | |
| − | [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cQY5-fxiP8&list=PLV9phP7EvKci7z9_kqgyThCYvNiDXUcqX&index=9 Tentative Vegan #2: Animal Use vs Exploitation ]
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| − | | |
| − | | |
| − | [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtutpAVP8I4 Using Animals: Does Consent Matter? (follow-up to tentative vegan #2)]
| |
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| − | | |
| − | [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8n0Pin0HweY Tentative Vegan: What is the Point? (vegan advocacy…again)] | |
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| − | | |
| − | [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOawDbvCPjw&index=1&list=PLZEkgohG7k7rpxzjaIVXoMvvVOrNU19VG Vegans don’t own pets: domestication and evil. ]
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| − | | |
| − | | |
| − | [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrpNQ-kzy50&index=2&list=PLZEkgohG7k7rpxzjaIVXoMvvVOrNU19VG Pet Ownership as SLAVERY (vegan / vegans / veganism) ] | |
| − | | |
| − | | |
| − | [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOawDbvCPjw&index=1&list=PLZEkgohG7k7rpxzjaIVXoMvvVOrNU19VG Vegans don’t own pets: domestication and evil. ]
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| − | [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F59Rx7uoRpo&list=PLqRNOagVZDVedH8wZ-udB42EeP-55jvy3&index=9&t=778s On Historical Nihilism (][https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F59Rx7uoRpo&list=PLqRNOagVZDVedH8wZ-udB42EeP-55jvy3&index=9&t=778s 历史虚无主义][https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F59Rx7uoRpo&list=PLqRNOagVZDVedH8wZ-udB42EeP-55jvy3&index=9&t=778s ) and Having a Philosophy in General] | |
| − | | |
| − | | |
| − | [https://www.patreon.com/posts/stop-castrating-5857600 Stop castrating dogs and cats, you twisted sicko.]
| |
| − | | |
| − | | |
| − | [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsUu3aYdbRU Your Cat Hates You: Unnatural Vegan is Wrong, and it Really Matters.] | |
| − | | |
| − | | |
| − | [https://www.patreon.com/posts/your-cat-hates-5870525 YOUR CAT HATES YOU: yet more on pets/domestication.]
| |
| − | | |
| − | | |
| − | [https://www.patreon.com/posts/other-voices-is-6022837 [Other voices:] Vegan Gains is Against Pet Ownership. Here’s Why.]
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| − | | |
| − | | |
| − | [https://www.patreon.com/posts/other-voices-jae-6032318 [Other voices:] Jae Costly reflects on pets for disabled people, trained “service animals”, etc.] | |
| − | | |
| − | | |
| − | [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0R2JxmbOxk Your Dog Hates You: “Service Animals” and Airplane Pillows.]
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| − | | |
| − | I've raised for you guys a whole series of problems we're all I've been trying to do is to get you to admit that they're problematic castration is problematic killing cows to feed dogs is problematic killing lambs the feed cats is problematic and yes even these psychological dimensions of how people live with dogs after those dogs have been castrated train had their will broken had their sex lives taken away from had any chance of an independent life of dignity taken away from them when these dogs have lived their whole lives without ever knowing what it's like to be in a pack what it's ever like never knowing what it's like to be in a forest I have just been saying that this is problematic and the very real hatred and obligee directed towards me but the vast majority of vegans has been manifest and demonstrated all but this is the question I have to ask for you if we as vegans can't just admit that this is a problem and think critically about what direction we're going in the future who can
| |
| − | | |
| − | | |
| − | [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQagrQBSlDQ&list=PLqRNOagVZDVedH8wZ-udB42EeP-55jvy3&index=42&t=197s The Vegan Cheetah is RIGHT About Pets – My response! ]
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| − | | |
| − | | |
| − | [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rf8pHjhsTE8 Castration: vegan excuses for enslaving animals. Unnatural Vegan.] | |
| − | | |
| − | | |
| − | [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ax--rEsXWE Stop castrating dogs and cats, stop making excuses for it.]
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| − | | |
| − | [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDoyiFOBkcI&list=PLqRNOagVZDVedH8wZ-udB42EeP-55jvy3&index=24&t=1131s Zoos and/or/as the Meaning of Life Conversation with Jae Costl] | |
| − | | |
| − | | |
| − | [https://www.patreon.com/posts/real-animal-dont-7171044 Real Animal-Lovers Don’t Own Animals, Don’t Raise Animals, Don’t Keep Animals.]
| |
| − | | |
| − | | |
| − | [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkgXbppLTyU Why vegans shouldn’t shop (adopt don’t shop, don’t buy from a breeder) ] | |
| − | | |
| − | | |
| − | [https://youtu.be/AR-63cAVCPM Is Destiny a psychopath? Or just delusional? (thoughts on the Vegan Gains debate)]
| |
| − | | |
| − | | |
| − | [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHTNMYBiTic Captive Animals ARE NOT Companion Animals (Unnatural Vegan is NOT Vegan)]
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| − | | |
| − | | |
| − | [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2amJ-kFO84 Will farm animal species go extinct if the world goes vegan? If so, does it matter? ]
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| | + | || 168K |
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| | + | ||6.5K |
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| | + | ||5K |
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| | + | ||5K |
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| | + | ||4.8K |
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| | + | ||3.8K |
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| | + | ||3.2K |
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| | + | ||3.2K |
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| | + | ||3K |
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| | + | ||2.8K |
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| | + | ||2.7K |
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| | + | ||2.7K |
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| | + | ||2.61K |
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| | + | ||2.4K |
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| | + | ||2.4K |
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| | + | ||2.3K |
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| | + | ||2.3K |
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| − | [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5HupEfCuY8&list=PLqRNOagVZDVedH8wZ-udB42EeP-55jvy3&index=45&t=700s New Values Politics, Personhood, Meaning of Life]
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| | + | ||2.3K |
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| | + | ||2.1K |
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| | + | ||2K |
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| | + | ||1.95K |
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| | + | ||1.92K |
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| − | === Disease ===
| + | ||1.15K |
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| | + | ||1.15K |
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| | + | ||0.07 |
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I'm going through mediawiki, help boards and sometimes other wikis in order to see how they write the html to format, sometimes I can find solutions other times I draw a blank. This is just bizarre, none of the examples they give are working, don't know why or how our mediwiki version is set up differently maybe. Click edit to see:
That sounds like a really great quote box function. You're right, not working for me either... is there somewhere we can ask? --BrimstoneSaladWiki (talk) 23:06, 26 July 2017 (CEST)
