What is the utility of computer scientists?

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teo123
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What is the utility of computer scientists?

Post by teo123 »

JReg wrote:Many of them prioritize soft sciences over hard sciences
What's bad about it? Soft sciences are important. If a society knows advanced physics but doesn't understand political science, it could end up destroying itself with nuclear weapons. And what would happen if the entire world went vegan is more of a matter of soft science than of hard science: many people are (mistakenly) worried that it would somehow destroy our economy.
JReg wrote:Although I don't disrespect the study
To me it seems that you do.
JReg wrote:They all try to publish these papers no one reads or cares about
But isn't the same true for almost any science these days? My perception is that quite a few papers in mathematics today can only be understood by maybe ten people around the world.
JReg wrote:try to make some sort of coding language that has no utility at all
In my experience, very few computer scientists or programmers make their own language. And, yes, most of the languages don't end up being widely used, but why do you expect people to succeed at designing a good programming language the first time they try that? JavaScript wasnt't exactly Brendan Eich'es first language, and it would be a lot worse if it were.

@Red, admit it, JReg is either you or somebody you know in real life whom you talked into trolling on this forum for you.
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Post by Not The Real JReg »

Thank you, Red. A new thread would be nice.
teo123 wrote: Fri Jan 03, 2020 1:21 pm What's bad about it? Soft sciences are important.
No they aren't.
If a society knows advanced physics but doesn't understand political science, it could end up destroying itself with nuclear weapons.
That wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. In fact, many political scientists agree. See the writings of J. Posadas, for instance.
And what would happen if the entire world went vegan is more of a matter of soft science than of hard science: many people are (mistakenly) worried that it would somehow destroy our economy.
No they aren't.
To me it seems that you do.
I don't, and the fact that to you, it seems like I do is irrelevant.
But isn't the same true for almost any science these days? My perception is that quite a few papers in mathematics today can only be understood by maybe ten people around the world.
Your perception is wrong.
In my experience, very few computer scientists or programmers make their own language. And, yes, most of the languages don't end up being widely used, but why do you expect people to succeed at designing a good programming language the first time they try that? JavaScript wasnt't exactly Brendan Eich'es first language, and it would be a lot worse if it were.
If JavaScript was Brendan Eich's first language, we would be living in a utopia by now.
@Red, admit it, JReg is either you or somebody you know in real life whom you talked into trolling on this forum for you.
I'll confess that I do know Red, ( :roll: ) although not in real life but on the internet, and he did convince me to troll. :lol: I have no idea how you worked out that this was our plan as I was being extremely subtle about it, however, Red did warn me that you are a highly intelligent individual. ;)

Nevertheless, the views that I have expressed in my posts are my own, so if you have a problem with them, you can take it up with me rather than Red.
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Re: What is the utility of computer scientists?

Post by Lay Vegan »

This soft science “debate” becomes less productive the more you guys drag it into other threads. “Productive” here means improving the accuracy of either the audience, or the interlocutor’s views on this topic.

If anyone has a new or interesting argument regarding the usefulness of computer science it would be a great time to present it.
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Re: What is the utility of computer scientists?

Post by Red »

Lay Vegan wrote: Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:29 pm This soft science “debate” becomes less productive the more you guys drag it into other threads. “Productive” here means improving the accuracy of either the audience, or the interlocutor’s views on this topic.

If anyone has a new or interesting argument regarding the usefulness of computer science it would be a great time to present it.
I just named it that (I split it from JReg's intro thread) since that kinda seemed to be the main idea and I wasn't sure what to name the new thread.

Although now that you mention it, teo is on probation regarding discussing hard and soft sciences, so...
Learning never exhausts the mind.
-Leonardo da Vinci
teo123
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Re: What is the utility of computer scientists?

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JReg wrote:See the writings of J. Posadas, for instance.
What about them? I don't have time to read much about it (I need to study digital electronics for the test I have on tuesday and for laboratory exercises in object-oriented programming), tell me what you consider important.
JReg wrote:No they aren't.
What do you mean they aren't? One of the most common arguments against veganism is that many people in developing world would somehow end up starving if many people in developed world stopped eating meat. It's a complete misunderstanding of economics, but people actually believe that.
JReg wrote:Your perception is wrong.
Where do you get your perception from? Do you seriously think somebody who has spent the last ten years of his life studying statistics can somehow understand the discussions about the complexity of some new algorithm for matrix inversion?
JReg wrote:If JavaScript was Brendan Eich's first language, we would be living in a utopia by now.
I am not sure what you mean. I meant to say that Brendan Eich's first language, as well as Larry Wall's first language, probably looked something like this, rather than like JavaScript or Perl.
JReg wrote: I have no idea how you worked out that
I mean, you used exactly the same phrases which I haven't seen or heard anywhere else.
Anyway, if you are really a doctor, how come you have time for Internet forums and for cooking vegan food?
Lay Vegan wrote:If anyone has a new or interesting argument regarding the usefulness of computer science it would be a great time to present it.
I don't understand what you mean. Of course computer science is useful, without it, there would be no computers. Do you think computers have done more harm than good to us? Then why do you keep using them?
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Re: What is the utility of computer scientists?

Post by Not The Real JReg »

teo123 wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2020 7:43 am
JReg wrote:See the writings of J. Posadas, for instance.
What about them? I don't have time to read much about it (I need to study digital electronics for the test I have on tuesday and for laboratory exercises in object-oriented programming), tell me what you consider important.
The destruction of capitalism via cleansing nuclear war.
What do you mean they aren't? One of the most common arguments against veganism is that many people in developing world would somehow end up starving if many people in developed world stopped eating meat. It's a complete misunderstanding of economics, but people actually believe that.
Can you name one person who actually believes that?
Where do you get your perception from?
I'm not sure why you're asking this question. I could cite over a dozen papers that back up my position but you've already said that you wouldn't have the time to read them.
Do you seriously think somebody who has spent the last ten years of his life studying statistics can somehow understand the discussions about the complexity of some new algorithm for matrix inversion?
Yes.
I am not sure what you mean. I meant to say that Brendan Eich's first language, as well as Larry Wall's first language, probably looked something like this, rather than like JavaScript or Perl.
Yes, and pretty much any problems that we face in society today are a result of that. If Brendan Eich and Larry Wall had JavaScript or Perl, those problems would not exist.
I mean, you used exactly the same phrases which I haven't seen or heard anywhere else.
Anyway, if you are really a doctor, how come you have time for Internet forums and for cooking vegan food?
You're very perceptive. You figured this all out already? I think it's safe to say that if Sherlock Holmes had been an actual historical personage, you would have been his reincarnation. However, I am very happy to be the Moriarty to your Sherlock. ;)
I don't understand what you mean. Of course computer science is useful, without it, there would be no computers. Do you think computers have done more harm than good to us? Then why do you keep using them?
I think the question Lay Vegan was asking (if I am not mistaken) presupposed the idea that computer science is useful. I think the question is how useful computer science is. And as I said before, I do respect the field. There are also a few computer scientists I really admire, but the vast majority of them (in my experience at least) are huge bores who have never done a proper day's work in their lives.
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Re: What is the utility of computer scientists?

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JReg wrote:The destruction of capitalism via cleansing nuclear war.
Did that guy have any kind of education in economics?
JReg wrote:Can you name one person who actually believes that?
Gae Bolga on atheistforums.org, for example.
JReg wrote:Yes.
OK, why do you think people on Quora aren't telling the truth about this topic?
JReg wrote:Yes, and pretty much any problems that we face in society today are a result of that. If Brendan Eich and Larry Wall had JavaScript or Perl, those problems would not exist.
I take it you mean this ironically, in the sense "Most of the problems in the world have nothing to do with computer science.". Well, that's true, most of the problems in the world today have to do with soft sciences. That's why I say soft sciences are at least as important as hard sciences are.
JReg wrote: I think the question is how useful computer science is.
Hey, listen, I agree that the importance for developers to know about algorithms and data structures (people usually mean that when they say computer science, even though that's only a small part of computer science) is often overestimated. If a program is slow, it's rarely because of algorithms and data structures the developer used. It's usually either because of over-engineering (Microsoft Word does a bunch of stuff people rarely if ever actually need, and that slows it down substantially), or because of an incorrect usage of some framework. It's also useless for an average developer to know assembly, writing a performance-sensitive part of a program in assembly these days, when the compilers for mainstream languages are so advanced, is usually shooting yourself in the foot.
JReg wrote:There are also a few computer scientists I really admire, but the vast majority of them (in my experience at least) are huge bores who have never done a proper day's work in their lives.
Hey, listen, like I've explained elsewhere, I think that what's going on here is that the low-hanging fruit is gone, and that it takes a lot of research to actually contribute to computer science. A good thing is that it's a very hard science and you will likely know if you get things wrong.
Yes, computer science is hard to do and the results are rarely comprehensible to an outsider.
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Re: What is the utility of computer scientists?

Post by Not The Real JReg »

teo123 wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:59 am Did that guy have any kind of education in economics?
No. This actually reinforces my point about education in the social sciences not being important, because Posadas is one of the greatest economists of all time without any education in economics.
Gae Bolga on atheistforums.org, for example.
Even if that is a real person, what makes you say that their views are representative of the general population?
OK, why do you think people on Quora aren't telling the truth about this topic?
None of the people there have studied statistics at all so I don't see how this is relevant.
most of the problems in the world today have to do with soft sciences. That's why I say soft sciences are at least as important as hard sciences are.
I think it's very clear that most of the problems in the world today are to do with the hard sciences.
Yes, computer science is hard to do and the results are rarely comprehensible to an outsider.
I think it's incredibly easy.
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Re: What is the utility of computer scientists?

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JReg wrote:Posadas is one of the greatest economists of all time without any education in economics.
What do you mean he is one of the greatest economists of all time? The greatest economist of all time was probably Hayek, who correctly predicted that the policies of the Central Bank would lead to The Great Depression and who correctly guessed that the stories of Holodomor, dismissed by the mainstream media, were not only true but that Holodomor was predictable. Somebody who embraces socialism (defined as the economic system in which the means of production are owned by the state) is not a great economist. Keynesianism, in my opinion, holds somewhat more merit, but not what people today usually mean when they say Keynesianism. When people today say Keynesianism, they usually mean the economic gibberish that advocates for the policies such as minimum wage laws and democratic control of the economy. That's not at all what Keynes advocated, he was against minimum wage laws and he said good economic policies are unlikely to be followed by a democratic government.
JReg wrote:Even if that is a real person, what makes you say that their views are representative of the general population?
Well, MrRepzion once expressed similar views. And I used to believe things like that once. We can't assume most people believe that, but we can assume many people believe that.
JReg wrote:None of the people there have studied statistics at all so I don't see how this is relevant.
I meant whichever distantly related fields of mathematics. I assumed algebra and statistics were very distantly related, though I haven't studied it that much to be sure.
JReg wrote:I think it's very clear that most of the problems in the world today are to do with the hard sciences.
Which ones? There are many starving people around the world, and that has little or nothing to do with our ability to produce food. It has to do with soft sciences: what is the best way to distribute that food to the poor and enable them to get richer.
JReg wrote:I think it's incredibly easy.
Why exactly? I was able to start making my own programming language, something I've dreamed of since the beginning, only after studying programming by myself for 5 years. And it took me 11 months of work to develop it to a degree that I was able to implement the stack-based permutations algorithm in it. The compiler is just 2'000 lines of code, but there is quite a lot of research behind quite a few of those lines of code. A single line of code in that compiler is not quite comparable to a single line of code in the 700-lines-of-code PacMan game I've made within a day after 3 weeks of learning JavaScript, or even the 2'000-lines-of-code flashcard game about linguistics I've made in about a month. So, I don't know what's your definition of "incredibly easy".
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Re: What is the utility of computer scientists?

Post by Not The Real JReg »

I have had to rewrite this post because my original post was disapproved for "containing links to illegal or pirated software". I did not include any links whatsoever. Whoever removed my post needs to explain to me the meaning behind this. And @teo123, I don't mean to be accusatory, but if it was you who removed my post, I'd like you to come clean so that we can talk about this like rational adults.
teo123 wrote:What do you mean he is one of the greatest economists of all time? The greatest economist of all time was probably Hayek, who correctly predicted that the policies of the Central Bank would lead to The Great Depression and who correctly guessed that the stories of Holodomor, dismissed by the mainstream media, were not only true but that Holodomor was predictable.
Hayek was wrong on both counts. He was the worst economic ever. Even if he was the greatest economist of all time (which he isn't), that still wouldn't debunk the fact that Posadas is one of the greatest economists of all time. This point is not only wrong but irrelevant.
Somebody who embraces socialism (defined as the economic system in which the means of production are owned by the state) is not a great economist.
Yes they are.
Keynesianism, in my opinioholds somewhat more merit, but not what people today usually mean when they say Keynesianism.
Posadas was actually a huge influence on Keynes. They collaborated very closely together.
Well, MrRepzion once expressed similar views. And I used to believe things like that once. We can't assume most people believe that, but we can assume many people believe that.
Why? So far you've only given me three people. One of whom I can't be sure is a real person. The other one (you) doesn't believe it any more. And the third guy I haven't even heard of.
I meant whichever distantly related fields of mathematics. I assumed algebra and statistics were very distantly related, though I haven't studied it that much to be sure.
Then how can you be sure that what you're saying is correct?
Which ones? There are many starving people around the world, and that has little or nothing to do with our ability to produce food.
Yes it does. If you watch Star Trek, you will see that they have abolished hunger by using food replicators. This demonstrated how if more emphasis was put on hard sciences than soft sciences, there wouldn't be any starving people.
It has to do with soft sciences: what is the best way to distribute that food to the poor and enable them to get richer.
I disagree. However, it is my understanding that you are not allowed to discuss hard sciences and soft sciences, so you will just have to accept that I am right and you are wrong.
A single line of code in that compiler is not quite comparable to a single line of code in the 700-lines-of-code PacMan game I've made within a day after 3 weeks of learning JavaScript, or even the 2'000-lines-of-code flashcard game about linguistics I've made in about a month.
To call Pac-Man a mere game would be an injustice. It’s a cultural icon, a symbol of an entire decade, as well as an entity that redefined gaming itself. Evidence of this can be found not only in its initial success, but also by the fact that it continues to be loved and valued by every new generation of gamers.
So, I don't know what's your definition of "incredibly easy".
Computer science is incredibly easy.
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