Philosophical Vegan Forum

As I am very new to the vegetarian and eventually vegan lifestyle, I have been spending a ton of time doing research on what is healthy for me and what I need to lead a happy and healthy life. I found a few youtubers who instantly put a sour taste in my mouth with bad behavior rationalized away with half baked logic. People who held beliefs that I found had nothing to do with my vegan journey, and were harmful to the rest of the vegan community. There was an elitism I was offended by, and a rudeness or lack of compassion which I was baffled by. Veganism is a compassionate way of life, as you are choosing to abstain from eating something that has been tortured or hurt, or use their products. So how could these people who claim to be compassionate be so angry or down right malicious toward everyone else?

I'm not going to give names for specific people who have irritated me, but many of them are popular advocates for the vegan lifestyle, and are bad at vegan activism. There is just no need to give them any more popularity than they need. I am just so upset with this behavior, that I don't know how to handle it exactly. I am nervous about my own choice to eventually transition to a vegan life style, because I don't need the extra complication of "you aren't vegan enough if you don't ---" or "My bad behavior towards you is okay because I am doing it for the animals!" I will make that transition one day, but I fear that I will be a very isolated vegan. I don't want to be a part of an angry witch hunting community if I don't have to. Thankfully this forum which I found through Unatural Vegan doesn't seem to be that way.

Em

You might have noticed a similar trend among Christians, where there are the Phelpses and the hell fire threatening Christians. What you'll find is that the most unpleasant and aggressive are often just the loudest -- not the most numerous. For every loud jerk putting others down and advocating extremism, there are a dozen people sitting quietly aside and living their own lives.

It's a problem when moderates don't speak out and make their voices heard over extremists. But they are there. As a moderate vegan, you're in the vast majority. Most vegans are not extreme or mean spirited, they're just trying their best not to harm animals.

EmAndLife wrote:People who held beliefs that I found had nothing to do with my vegan journey, and were harmful to the rest of the vegan community.

Without evidence, this is an unfounded assertion. Can you prove that vegans who are outspoken about certain beliefs which are unrelated to veganism are actually harmful? If not, this is merely an assumption.

EmAndLife wrote:There was an elitism I was offended by

Are you referring to Durianrider and/or Freelee here? Because they're the only personalities within vegan YouTube that I can imagine you sensing a vibe of elitism from.

EmAndLife wrote:...and a rudeness or lack of compassion which I was baffled by.

Veganism is about the reducing the exploitation and cruelty to animals as far as is practicable and possible, it doesn't mean you're forbidden from being rude, and it doesn't mean that you're obligated to treat everyone like a princess.

EmAndLife wrote:Veganism is a compassionate way of life, as you are choosing to abstain from eating something that has been tortured or hurt, or use their products.

No, veganism is simply an effort to reduce the exploitation and cruelty of animals to the best of your ability. It doesn't mean you're a "compassionate" human being, or that you need to be to (to be vegan). In the same way that choosing not to rape or murder other humans doesn't mean you're a compassionate human being, or that choosing not to rape or murder other humans means you mustn't be rude to other humans.

EmAndLife wrote:So how could these people who claim to be compassionate be so angry or down right malicious toward everyone else?

There are many reasons for this, they could simply be frustrated by the stupidity of the person they're responding to, they could be annoyed at the fact that humans frequently try to sweep the exploitation of animals under the rug, as if it's a nonissue, or those traits could genuinely just be a part of how they speak to people in general.

EmAndLife wrote:but many of them are popular advocates for the vegan lifestyle, and are bad at vegan activism.

Saying a person is "bad at vegan activism" has become quite a trend, however, it is generally a completely unsubstantiated assertion which requires solid evidence for it to hold any weight. It generally comes from the politically correct sect of vegans who tend to believe that being nice is good activism, and being rude is bad activism, which again, requires substantiation.

I personally don't respect people who speak to me in a disingenuously polite manner, and put on the suit of a nice person. Because they're essentially lying to me about who they really are, and that is something I cannot value.

EmAndLife wrote:I am just so upset with this behavior, that I don't know how to handle it exactly.

Don't listen to it, if you don't like it.

EmAndLife wrote:I am nervous about my own choice to eventually transition to a vegan life style, because I don't need the extra complication of "you aren't vegan enough if you don't"..

I went vegan because I didn't want to contribute to the unnecessary exploitation and cruelty of animals, and nothing any person could say is more important to me than that. Why do you care so much about what people say? The world is not designed to suit your needs, you need to learn to deal with certain things.

Saying "you aren't vegan if you knowingly contribute to animal exploitation" is correct.
Saying "you aren't vegan if you accidentally did something which contributes to animal exploitation" is incorrect.

EmAndLife wrote:"My bad behavior towards you is okay because I am doing it for the animals!"

People aren't justifying their behaviour on the basis of not exploiting animals. They're typically rude because they're either frustrated at stupidity, or it's simply who they are as a person. They aren't obligated to justify themselves for being rude on the internet.

EmAndLife wrote:I will make that transition one day, but I fear that I will be a very isolated vegan.

That's good, though I don't believe you'd feel isolated, because there seem to be a lot more "nice" vegans than rude vegans.

freelee sorsha, durian and some others I happened to find bothered me to a great extent. When I said that it was a compassionate way of life, I meant that at least from what I have gathered from the life style, you are more likely to be more compassionate towards others, and animals. Maybe I exaggerated that a bit. When I say bad for vegan activism, I mean like freelee's video about not having children. She states that she wants to do whatever she wants, and that is fine, but then continues to tell her followers that they shouldnt have kids either. Suggesting that their followers are being forced, they are an extra mouth to feed, or maybe you should adopt. I can see points, but it has nothing to do with veganism, and she is a rolemodel for the vegan community, unfortunately.

What I meant when I quoted the "You arent vegan enough if you dont-" I have witnessed a few vegans suggest in my own personal life that you arent vegan if you dont follow this specific diet, you eat or dont eat certain foods, or you just arent them. Its a form of elitism that I am not fond of.

I also live in a very small town and finding vegan friends is a very slim chance. Online friends are always helpful, but due to my fear of this bad behavior towards other vegans, I would rather not put myself out there to be witch hunted for whatever reason.

Thanks for the good discussion! Sometimes I am a little blunt in my internet posts, trying to get my point across without rambling, and it comes out a bit rude or underdeveloped. Sorry if there was any of that here...

Em.

EmAndLife wrote: I also live in a very small town and finding vegan friends is a very slim chance.

Meetup.com is extremely helpful. Even if you have to drive an hour away to the nearest major city, you can meet people face-to-face in vegan groups. I also hear from others who participate in these online discussion groups that they've met people face-to-face from these groups. Going to vegan talks/events, again even if you have to travel to a major city where they're more likely to be held, is also a great way to meet other vegans live. So that may increase your chances of eventually making vegan friends, (I take it you meant more than just online vegan friends).

EmAndLife wrote: Online friends are always helpful, but due to my fear of this bad behavior towards other vegans, I would rather not put myself out there to be witch hunted for whatever reason.

That is very understandable, and I'm sorry you are dealing with that reluctance toward putting yourself out there, because when do that to avoid the elitist/rude kinds of responses you may also miss out on the more kind-hearted and relateable responses.

I was also put off, when I was a new vegan, by how even vegans are against vegans, whether it's because of differing reasons for vegans or differing approaches to vegan activism and differing viewpoints about which approaches are more effective. I have not seen any research on which approaches are more effective, only just anecdotal experience and analogies. For example, dXe makes analogies with other social justice movements involving direct action. Those may be strong analogies, but I don't think anyone knows for sure which methods work best, and it's possible that different methods work best for different people. My mom decided to go vegan after I showed her James Wildman's lecture comparing carnism with living inside of The Matrix (as in the movie) and veganism with getting outside of it, and she said that she liked his calm and respectful manner of presentation. I consider his style like Melanie Joy's. For others, Gary Yourofsky's more blunt and passionate style is more effective.

Just like with people you only see on YouTube, I think you'll find that vegans elsewhere online and in person have the full range of personalities and talk styles that you find in non-vegans.