Talk:Freeganism

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How it relates to veganism, how pragmatic it can be when done right, how the end goal should be bringing awareness to end food waste, but also how it can be a vital toolkit in cheaply running new projects, supporting the homeless and domestic animals which are obligate carnivores. --NonZeroSum (talk) 06:29, 15 July 2017 (CEST)


Wiki quoting

Hard to do much better than the wiki definition, history and policy impact. And if we could wouldn't we want to change the Wikipedia definition also? In such a circumstance is it ok to copy verbatim or should we keep in quote and reference form?

Not sure if this is how other small mediawiki operations do it, but seems we can copy verbatim without quote-marking:[1]

As of July 15, 2009 Wikipedia has moved to a dual-licensing system that supersedes the previous GFDL only licensing. In short, this means that text licensed under the GFDL only can no longer be imported to Wikipedia, retroactive to 1 November 2008. Additionally, Wikipedia text might or might not now be exportable under the GFDL depending on whether or not any content was added and not removed since July 15 2009. See Wikipedia:Licensing update for further information.

Verbatim copying under the GFDL is one of the ways to reuse Wikipedia articles and other material. You may only use this approach for pages that do not incorporate text that is exclusively available under CC-BY-SA or a CC-BY-SA-compatible license. See Re-use of text under the GNU Free Documentation License.

For the purposes of this discussion, Wikipedia is considered to be a Collection of Documents. (An alternative interpretation could be that Wikipedia is a single Document, which invalidates the discussion on this page.)

--NonZeroSum (talk) 18:42, 18 July 2017 (CEST)

Page Layout Ideas?

Keep going with facts & information, activism and alternative perspectives? --NonZeroSum (talk) 06:29, 15 July 2017 (CEST),

Sounds like a good general guideline.--BrimstoneSaladWiki (talk) 02:01, 16 July 2017 (CEST)

To Draw from

Forum Threads


Foraging

I have considered eating wild plants for a long time, but for some reason decided that doing so was extremist and nasty somehow. I have always feared that I am going to eat some poisonous plant.

Lately I have been looking into it again, possibly considering Clover and Dandelion as something to try out. Not for any magical healing BS or anything, but just to see what it is like, and possibly as a free food source. -- NerdyScienceGirl

Thoughts? Have you ever done this?

It can be excellent as a free food source, although these foods are not palatable to most people, and you may want to take care to research oxalates and considerations from eating a large amount of them.
Plants that grow in the wild are usually tougher, physically and chemically, which makes them less delicious. Our cultivated plants are particularly soft, made so to serve as a human food source, although that also makes them extremely vulnerable to pests. --BrimstoneSaladWiki

Edible gardening

For a long time I've been considering starting my own garden instead of having to constantly go to my local farmers market to buy my vegtables. I would like to start my garden by next week but I don't know the first thing to gardening nor do I know anything about keeping my plants healthy and products I should use to get the most out of them.

Anyone who has experience in this please give me as many tips as you can. From time to time if all goes aswell I will post pictures of my on going plant adventure and will eventually make a another thread describing my experience. --Neptual

I currently have a big garden, with which I sustain myself.
You don't need anything special to make plants grow: no manure, no pesticides, no fertilizers. Manure is not necessary, unlike many people believe (I know because I never used it, but my plants always produce more than what I expect), and pesticides are only useful to make your vegetables/fruits look perfect, without dents (like the ones you see in supermarkets; however, biological agriculture doesn't use fertilizers and pesticedes). To get the most out of them, just make a research on the plant/vegetable you wish to plant (inserting the name on Google gives you planty of information); check if it needs sun more than others or not, what are the best temperatures for it to grow, if it needs a special pH, etc.
Another important thing is to make the best use you possibly can out of the space you have at your disposal. Some vegetables/plants have a bad production/space ratio(i.e. pumpkins), while some others are the opposite (i.e. Brussels sprouts). Consider this factor to have the most efficient garden. Take also in consideration that some things like spinaches have high nutrition values (in the case of spinaches: vitamin A , vitamin C, vitamin E, vitamin K, magnesium, manganese, folate, betaine, iron, vitamin B2, calcium, potassium, vitamin B6, folic acid, copper, protein, phosphorus, zinc, niacin, selenium and omega-3 fatty acids; so they're perfect for a healthy diet, and yes I love spinaches).
In the end, if the plant you're looking for needs anything special, any valid site should tell you. Water the plants regularly, and remember that most vegetables need atleast 6 hours of sunlight daily.
If you want a book, I don't have any good suggestions, since I only have italian books. However, I recommend buying one, it's very useful. --thebestofenergy
Thanks for your helpful tips! I've only invested a small amount of money for garden space area and making sure that it is sufficient for what I need but have also combined your tips along with others in order to start the growth of a healthy garden :) I wasn't worried about the usage of manure because there is a horse stable nearby and they allow to take as much manure as I'd like to. On the other hand I am thankful that I won't have to use my time to gathering all of that manure, and even more thankful that I won't have to spend extra money on buying pesticides. --Neptual
I don't have anything intelligent to add to the conversation, but I'm kind of excited for this thread. I too want to start my own garden full of the staples I normally buy, and it would be great to see your experience first hand like that. I already have a compost started, simply because the soil is so dry and dead where I live. Hoping that I won't have to use fertilizer though, and I definitely was not going to use pesticide. What is your soil like over there, thebestofenergy? --itsund3rmykilt
I have a large place (more than 20'000 m^2), so the soil is noticeably different depending on the zones. I place certain plants where the soil is 'better', because they require so, while other plants don't ask for anything specific. Again, not making researches on the vegetables you're planning to plant is a way to start on the wrong foot, and you can easily find the pH a plant needs. Remember that the pH doesn't always necessarily have to be precise, it's usually just what the plant prefers.
I find this site very helpful regarding pH (how to measure it, how to change it, what it is, etc.) and the best type of soil http://milkwood.net/2014/03/17/how-to-t ... e-harvest/
And I find this site http://www.garden.org/ to be very useful for researches in general. --thebestofenergy
For veganic gardening you can buy ground rocks that essentially leach nutrients into the earth. cow manure is widely used so I think that avoiding that shit (hahaha) is pretty crucial. There is a dude that does veganic gardening on youtube and while he may be all spiritual and "californiad" out, his tips are very useful.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qt6hDgyIY6U -- Twizelby

External sources

Need to change the titles of everything quoted and give them a how it relates to veganism focus to give us enough room to change without copying. I'll probably reach out to trashwiki and say they have permission to use material from this page if we can borrow back from them, as 99.99% is going to be from the same angle, just be interesting to see what they come up with and where they diverge on the anti-consumerist stuff. --NonZeroSum

It's not practical to vary copyright and permissions on a page-by-page basis. It's best to just keep their stuff minimal and in quotes if it isn't public domain, and possibly link to it as a reference for further reading.--BrimstoneSaladWiki (talk) 22:33, 22 July 2017 (CEST)
Don't think I've quoted them at all, they're pages are pretty chaotic, I just thought about updating some of their sections with what I'd written, and asking if their stuff is public domain. It would be interesting to see what they left the same and where they diverged and the discussion that could be gained from that. --NonZeroSum (talk) 08:52, 23 July 2017 (CEST)


Wikipedia [2]

Very thorough, we can probably reference to their history overview. --NonZeroSum (talk) 06:29, 15 July 2017 (CEST)

Trashwiki [3]

This site is the go to that every freegan uses for maps and information on big cities when they don't know their way around or have someone to show them. Helplful 'last checked' dates also. Interesting recorded Freegan News and Events also.[4] --NonZeroSum (talk) 06:29, 15 July 2017 (CEST)

The Ultimate Guide To Dumpster Diving [5]

As it says in the title, think this is a great go to article, just a few naturalistic fallacies didn't want to copy over, the rest in the process of rereading and drawing from in my own terminology.

Food Waste & Freeganism (Unnatural Vegan)

The first of UV's videos on food waste and the second half of this one can probably be termed moving towards zero waste not freeganism, but it's all good listening. An introduction as to how it relates to veganism and use of the term.

Still be useful as I said in the beginning to get an educational video out there on how these networks of self-supporting freegans can reduce the need to consume on things like cat food, can organize to efficiently feed people on the cheap in the street and advocate for change in industry practices and the law through documenting, media and petitioning industry, councils and politicians.

Stealing

Freeganism started out as anti-consumerist ethic sees stealing as hurting the bottom line of all companies, creating irregular demand and no profit, as well as taking free animal products from strangers as some kind of gift economy that is commendable, so it is something we have to fight for the definition over, or use freegan-vegan instead. --NonZeroSum

The "stealing is OK" mantra seems to be dying, probably because it's illegal and people don't want to promote that in the mainstream, but it's also ethically inconsistent (it hurts retail stores and consumers: the stores which have to restock benefiting the companies making that product because the retail store has to pay for spillage, and the consumers because most of the cost gets passed on to them as markup), I think it's worth fighting over for simplicity's sake, and making arguments against those practices as fake freeganism in the article. We could have different articles on freeganism, zero-waste, and minimalism--BrimstoneSaladWiki (talk) 22:33, 22 July 2017 (CEST)
Hmm I just think it would be historically inaccurate to call theft fake freeganism, the founding propaganda 'Why freegan?' including theft and employee scams, also the freegan movement ethic that it's better to steal from a multi-national franchises than a small independent to survive and the desire to see them rid of out of communities by putting pressure on them so they aren't financially viable - [6]
It might be appropriate to call taking food offered to you fake freeganism because of a misguided understanding of it being a free-diet like vegetarian to free..g..an, but IMO the theft thing will just have to be dissuaded in the criticism section. --NonZeroSum (talk) 03:28, 23 July 2017 (CEST)
Stealing animal products still triggers the demand from the supplier that salvaging from a dumpster does not. This makes it fake freeganism; you're driving demand none-the-less. I could understand stealing non-animal products as an act of assault against a corporation just as would be any form of property damage. I don't agree with it for a number of reasons both in principle and in terms of logistics, but I can see why those anti-capitalist freegans would see it as preferable to purchasing. That doesn't reduce or negate the harm to animals from animal products, though, thus fake freegan (unless the stolen items are legitimately vegan, which is something we could address in the criticism section). (Also, no need to post wiki content on the forum now, I don't want Google's cache to get confused once this is live which we should probably do pretty soon) --BrimstoneSaladWiki (talk) 07:28, 23 July 2017 (CEST)
No problem, I already conceded we can probably call using any animal products from exploitation that aren't waste - not vegan, hence not freegan and a confused simple face understanding of the word freegan like free-diet-etarian.
I didn't think about the google catch thing, but I won't for every page just wanted to share to UV's patreon without giving the wiki address away, and get people on the forum more involved. I don't mind when the wiki goes up, I haven't done as much as I'd have liked because I was annoyed by the lack of transparency and working together that would have solved problems sooner. So killed the enthusiasm to commit, but will just carry on writing articles that interest me and expanding my reading through discussion. --NonZeroSum (talk) 08:31, 23 July 2017 (CEST)
I'm just worried about spammers from public posting, I think sharing on Patreon groups is fine as long as you ask people not to share the link where spammers can find it. I'll leave it up to your discretion where would be safe to share the link. Spam can be a serious problem on wikis and make them unusable fast https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Combating_spam I know from dealing with the forum that manual intervention doesn't cut it. I will go ahead and post a link on the forum in text people can type in and spammers probably won't get. I'm not sure how many more people will join in since only a few users expressed interest. We'll wait on a clickable link. I don't know what you mean about transparency.--BrimstoneSaladWiki (talk) 23:14, 23 July 2017 (CEST)
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