Philosophical Vegan Forum

There's been this seemingly Anti-Vegan woman called Nina Teicholz (though she doesn't always specifically refer to it, she essentially implies her disdain for it and other diets which share some similar criteria,) who made some rounds in Canadian media some months ago.

Here're three links, one to an interview/podcast which was done over a program which aired on my country's public radio, an online article done by a news organization (which I believe also runs a news paper in my country,) and a video of this woman who is the advocate of a saturated fat-full diet whom appears in the two prior interview/articles also appearing on a daytime talk show to peddle her "findings" in an attempt which seems possibly primarily motivated by wanting to advertise her controversial new book.

cbc [dot] ca/player/Radio/ID/2650139031/

(Warning, a picture in the "The Star" article could be upsetting/gross for people)
thestar [dot] com/life/food_wine/2015/03/22/the-big-fat-surprise-author-nina-teicholz-says-fear-of-fat-has-cost-us-our-waistlines.html

thesocial [dot] ca/video?vid=572911


So, I've been meaning to look into more stuff regarding the health aspects of Veganism vs Carnism vs Vegetarianism and varieties of those diets and the science to do with diet/health for a while now. Though I have only done so a bit, however would like to further my knowledge on the subject.

Also, just so everyone knows, these three interviews haven't gotten me to question my diet, and I've been happy to continue with Veganism for the variety of reasons beyond my own health. Plus, I have seemingly generally gotten healthier since going Vegan anyways, even though I figure I haven't been following the most ideally healthful Vegan diet. (I can share a more detailed review of my general diet for critiquing, and then could take suggestions for improvement soon, like I've seen some others have done recently.)

So, with posting these three links I was hoping someone could break down what she's saying and explain how it likely is wrong, deceptive, or just plain odd and confused. With going over those three myself, I figure she may have been a bit too vague about some things like studies she cites which supposedly supports her, and probably her whole base of her ideas are just so wrong it may be hard to argue with anything specific without going back to the likely wrong way she came to those conclusions? I would like to see what others come up with, and I will probably soon enough look into other parts of this section of the forum here to further my knowledge and get some links/references to reliable sources of information on the science related to these various diets.


Edit: that she seems to say vegetable oils "aren't saturated fats," and keeps going on about how "good" animal products are for something "essential" in that third link/video seems pretty ridiculous to me since different vegetable oils vary in levels of different fats, and some have plenty of saturated fat, right? So it really is seeming like she's trying to work for sales of her book/the animal agriculture industry.

Edit #2: So, I just remembered she said how (paraphrased) "Vegan diets also don't include vitamin B12" in that third link/video too, which is clearly wrong, and is having me recall how even more ridiculous she sounded in that third interview especially. Okay, so while I'm quite certain now that the whole of what she said was likely deeply flawed, I would still like to see a good break down of what specific things stood out, and explanations of how she was wrong in the things she said.

Saturated fat like cholesterol can be synthesised endogenously in humans, we don't require an external source so they aren't in any sense essential, no more than cholesterol is essential. You can do fine without them, perhaps are arguably even better off as your body would managhe the turnover rate. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essential_nutrient
The only fats that are essential are certain omega3 s and omega6s, in the right balance. They are unsaturated fatty acids. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essential_fatty_acid

Saturated fat is also present in plant foods and are highest in certain vegetable oils like coconut oil which again are not recommended. http://nutritionfacts.org/topics/saturated-fat/
Going by Dr greggers videos ita generally not advised too have an excess of saturated fat as any amount raises bad cholesterol and the hardening of arteries, more given in the above link.

You could check out his videos especially "preventing the leading causes of death" and subsequent annual summaries. You could put up hour diet for further critique.
Well Balanced Vegan diets are the best diets scientifically, better than the best meat/vegetarian diets: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/pmid/24871675/

Vitamin b12 isn't present in a vegan diet in any plant source, you need to supplement. There are no two ways about that. http://nutritionfacts.org/video/vegan-epidemic/

Like garrethdsouza said, saturated fat is not essential, and is more harmful than helpful. The ideal amount is probably 0% (though is not possible even with a vegan diet, you can get closer). Your body synthesizes all you need. Plants contain saturated fat, just much less of it.

By definition, only essential fatty acids (EFAs) are essential, and those are all unsaturated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essential_fatty_acid

Wikipedia wrote: Essential fatty acids, or EFAs, are fatty acids that humans and other animals must ingest because the body requires them for good health but cannot synthesize them.[1] The term "essential fatty acid" refers to fatty acids required for biological processes but does not include the fats that only act as fuel.

Only two fatty acids are known to be essential for humans: alpha-linolenic acid (an omega-3 fatty acid) and linoleic acid (an omega-6 fatty acid).[2][3] Some other fatty acids are sometimes classified as "conditionally essential," meaning that they can become essential under some developmental or disease conditions; examples include docosahexaenoic acid (an omega-3 fatty acid) and gamma-linolenic acid (an omega-6 fatty acid).

When the two EFAs were discovered in 1923, they were designated "vitamin F", but in 1929, research on rats showed that the two EFAs are better classified as fats rather than vitamins.[3]

That's all the science on the topic you need to know. It's well established and non-controversial consensus.
We've known about these for almost a hundred years (since 1923).

This Nina Quack is spouting pseudoscience. Probably even more dangerous pseudoscience to personal health than anti-vaccination. And certainly more directly dangerous than Young Earth Creationism.

People who disseminate anti-scientific misinformation on public health should be liable for their malpractice; every person with worsening heart disease because of following her quackery should be able to sue her, at the very least. Unfortunately, the law is poor in this area, so people like this will continue to give dangerous advice.

Healthy vegans take B-12 as a supplement.
It can apparently be found in some vegan products (certain mushrooms, pruple laver), but in amounts that are both low and unreliable (vary from crop to crop), so it should be supplemented (very few people will be in a habit of eating several kilograms of shiitake mushrooms daily -- a minimum of 1/2 lb would be required based on this info: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4042564/ but that would be unreliable due to the varying concentration).

Definitely, feel free to post about your diet.
Also, as a side note: When you link to quacks like that, please leave off the http://www
It's nice to add [dot] or something instead of the . in com too. This breaks the links so bots don't follow them.
When bots follow links from popular forums, it improves the search rankings of those destinations (which makes it so more people will see these sites).

Nina is very, very mistaken!

Saturated fat is exactly what it is called
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturated_fat
Saturated fatty acids have no double bonds between the individual carbon atoms of the fatty acid chain. That is, the chain of carbon atoms is fully "saturated" with hydrogen atoms.

Essential fatty acid's are called essential fatty acid's because the body can not make them on their own thus they are essential..

Think of it like this;
We do not need dietary cholesterol because anything we eat our bodies will turn into cholesterol, that is why we call cholesterol from animals dietary cholesterol it's added cholesterol and it is unnecessary because we turn carbohydrate's into cholesterol or aka energy .. Plants get their energy from the sun we get our energy from them it's really cool carbs come from the sun...

Essential fatty acids are fats that the body can not produce on it owns that is why they are called essential fatty acids these are the fat's that we need to get from our diet..

When you eat plant sources of ALA your body will convert them into DHA and EPA which is what needs to happen for proper utilization of ala, dha and epa..
When you eat an animal yes you do get ALA but it hinders the conversion process of ALA to DHA or EPA..
This is because you are giving yourself dietary forms of DHA and EPA and skipping over the conversion stage of ALA to DHA and EPA...
If your body is not converting ALA to EPA or DHA you are just 'stealing' it from another being and it will not be utilized properly ..

Non vegans may have a higher blood levels of dha and epa than vegans but if you look at the conversion rates of ala to dha and epa it is much higher in vegans... For optimal living you want your body to convert ALA to DHA and EPA you do not want your body to steal DHA and EPA from another being because we wont be using it correctly..

We do not need dietary cholesterol because literally everything we eat is turned into cholesterol..
We do not need dietary forms of DHA or EPA because we make it from plant sources of ALA..

PrincessPeach wrote: If your body is not converting ALA to EPA or DHA you are just 'stealing' it from another being and it will not be utilized properly [...] For optimal living you want your body to convert ALA to DHA and EPA you do not want your body to steal DHA and EPA from another being because we wont be using it correctly..

I have not heard this before. Do you have a source?

Thanks for all the effort put into these quick responses everyone, and sorry for my belated response. I had meant to respond sooner, however had let a bit of procrastination over how best to respond (mostly around thinking about how best to respond to three substantial replies in an organized manner,) keep me from doing so until now. So, I've decided to compromise a bit by quoting and responding to some general things from one poster or another, which may also have been posted by another commenter here, without quoting that other person as well if I feel the things expressed are quite similar. If I don't address something which someone feels is of value for me to do so I would be glad to hear it out, but as for now I'm only responding to what I figure to be the essential( ) points for me to address. Also, I've not looked into anyone's links yet, but will be doing so very soon.

garrethdsouza wrote:Saturated fat like cholesterol can be synthesised endogenously in humans, we don't require an external source so they aren't in any sense essential, no more than cholesterol is essential. You can do fine without them, perhaps are arguably even better off as your body would managhe the turnover rate. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essential_nutrient
The only fats that are essential are certain omega3 s and omega6s, in the right balance. They are unsaturated fatty acids. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essential_fatty_acid

That's good to know that saturated fat works similarly in being able to be produced by my own body like cholesterol; which I did happen to know that about.

I had guessed that at the least Nina was wrong in her claims of there being positive health value in consuming large amounts of saturated fat, since I've heard plenty of dietary/health organizations say how important it is to limit and reduce intake of that nutrient. I'm also grateful now that I feel my uncertainty around this issue has been cleared up, since I can now make a better decision in choosing what to eat after looking at the “Nutrition Facts” labels found on most packaged foods around here (however, the companies unfortunately aren't required to label the general amounts of Poly-Unsaturates and Mono-Unsaturates, though they luckily always include the general amount of fat, plus the amount of trans and saturated fat,) or when I look up the general nutrition of a food online.

Also, one thing I'm wondering is, while I had also previously recognized the Poly-Unsaturates: Omega 3&6 as being essential, given that I've heard them commonly referred to as such by fairly credible organizations, (and I've seen many comments on how balancing the amount of the two is important, like you also mentioned, typically by increasing Omega 3 consumption and moderating Omega 6 consumption if the base diet was an average/typical high Omega 6 filled diet, to get it to a ratio around 1:3 or closer to being equal.) That which I'm wondering about is in whether stuff like Mono-Unsaturated fats are essential too? I've heard the term Omega 9, as well as maybe a couple other “Omega-#s” thrown around, and I'm wondering if any of those would be classified as Mono-Unsatured fats, or something else, and whether or not they're essential or have potential to not be adequately present in a diet?

garrethdsouza wrote:Vitamin b12 isn't present in a vegan diet in any plant source, you need to supplement. There are no two ways about that. http://nutritionfacts.org/video/vegan-epidemic/

Yes, despite what I had said in my OP there briefly, I am aware that (barring a few uncommon, possibly inconsistent Vegan foods with b12 like the ones Brimstone had mentioned,) whole Vegan foods won't give me my daily-value's worth of b12, if any at all. I've been thinking of supplementing b12 for a while, but I've kinda let the issue slide onto the backburner and out of my priorities, which is an issue I will soon revisit and probably make change about soon. Another question I have is whether fortified Vegan foods hold any substance in their claims of often having 30-50% of my daily recommended b12 intake in each serving? I couldn't see them out-and-out lying, but may it be a case of possible inconsistencies in the food, as well as my part in storage/preparation of the fortified foods making the labelled value probably out of line with what I'm actually consuming? If fortified foods are usually inconsistent, then that may be what pushes me to start supplementing instead of hoping that I'm really getting all of what the package claims.

brimstoneSalad wrote: Definitely, feel free to post about your diet.
Also, as a side note: When you link to quacks like that, please leave off the http://www
It's nice to add [dot] or something instead of the . in com too. This breaks the links so bots don't follow them.
When bots follow links from popular forums, it improves the search rankings of those destinations (which makes it so more people will see these sites).

Yes, I think I'll be getting to finally posting about my diet sometime soon, in that thread which others had done so as well, if I recall correctly. It could certainly use improvement, though I think my main issue is gaining the willpower to spend the time to prepare the healthier foods (however now that I think about it it doesn't really take all that much more time,) rather than being lazy and eating prepackaged Vegan foods which are usually either junk food, are marginally better than junk, or fairly distant from ideal I would assume.

Thanks for the heads up on posting links to websites with faulty, and potentially harmful info. I'll be sure that when I want to provide a source like that again, that I'll post it in the format demonstrated above from now on.

PrincessPeach wrote: When you eat plant sources of ALA your body will convert them into DHA and EPA which is what needs to happen for proper utilization of ala, dha and epa..
When you eat an animal yes you do get ALA but it hinders the conversion process of ALA to DHA or EPA..
This is because you are giving yourself dietary forms of DHA and EPA and skipping over the conversion stage of ALA to DHA and EPA...
If your body is not converting ALA to EPA or DHA you are just 'stealing' it from another being and it will not be utilized properly ..

Non vegans may have a higher blood levels of dha and epa than vegans but if you look at the conversion rates of ala to dha and epa it is much higher in vegans... For optimal living you want your body to convert ALA to DHA and EPA you do not want your body to steal DHA and EPA from another being because we wont be using it correctly..

We do not need dietary cholesterol because literally everything we eat is turned into cholesterol..
We do not need dietary forms of DHA or EPA because we make it from plant sources of ALA..

That's interesting. I think I read a bit about this before, but remain with limited knowledge regarding this sort of stuff about conversion rates, and the various types of Omega-3. I would also be interested in seeing evidence via a link or something to back up the claims here. I'm also curious what others do around the issue of getting adequate DHA and EPA. Are there Vegan supplements for them? Would those supplements potentially likewise not be as good as the supposed consuming of ALA and letting your body convert the necessary amounts of the rest?


Okay, so I think I responded to all of the main ideas presented to me. I would also like to say again that I appreciate all the effort put into the replies here, so thanks again!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega-9_fatty_acid
Unlike omega-3 fatty acids and omega-6 fatty acid, omega−9 fatty acids are *not* classed as essential fatty acids (EFA). This is both because they can be created by the human body from unsaturated fat, and are therefore not essential in the diet, and because the lack of an omega−6 double bond keeps them from participating in the reactions that form the eicosanoids.

Omega3
This article is pretty good http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/omega3?
Personally For ala I have flaxseeds daily, they are the world's richest source.
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php/genp ... nt&dbid=84
Walnuts can be added too and despite being having less ala, they're an excellent nut
http://nutritionfacts.org/topics/walnuts/
http://nutritionfacts.org/video/which-n ... er-better/

There's some evidence that the conversion rate is higher for veg*ns, though it's contentious
http://mobile.nutraingredients-usa.com/ ... ish-eaters

and adding the spice turmeric may also boost conversion rates although that's only based on preclinical studies as of now. So yet another among the myriad reasons to add turmeric to food
http://foodrevolution.org/blog/turmeric ... h-reveals/
Many folks also take the microalga based dha/epa supplements for that.

Like garrethdsouza said, Omega-9 is not essential.

It's just really good for you (at least, Oleic acid is, which is a major constituent of olive oil) as a source of dietary calories, and it doesn't mess up your 3:6 ratio.

If you're following a high fat diet, you'll want to eat a lot of Omega 9. Avoid saturated fat as much as possible.

DHA and EPA can be made in the body if you have a decent 3:6 ratio, but there are also vegan supplements if you want, made from algae.

Fortified foods aren't a particularly reliable source of B-12, although it's possible to avoid deficiency if most things you eat are fortified. They aren't lying about their content, but 50% of your daily amount is extremely small.
You don't need to take B-12 regularly, as it is stored in your body for years.

Some months I supplement, some months I don't. I've had off and on years too, just getting odd or random amounts from fortified foods. Just don't go several years without and you shouldn't develop any problems.

Edit: By the way, the tiny lentil sized chewable supplements I have are over 15,000% per tablet, which should put into perspective how bullshit it is that any "fortified" food would have less than 100% per serving. If I took only 100% a day, this bottle (which was maybe $5-$10, I don't remember exactly) should last me over 100 years.

brimstoneSalad wrote: You don't need to take B-12 regularly, as it is stored in your body for years.

Some months I supplement, some months I don't. I've had off and on years too, just getting odd or random amounts from fortified foods. Just don't go several years without and you shouldn't develop any problems.

Edit: By the way, the tiny lentil sized chewable supplements I have are over 15,000% per tablet, which should put into perspective how bullshit it is that any "fortified" food would have less than 100% per serving. If I took only 100% a day, this bottle (which was maybe $5-$10, I don't remember exactly) should last me over 100 years.

I don't know how far that's true or scientifically based that irregular supplementing is OK. If you also have fortified foods regularly you may just be able to scrape through, but no assurance of that, maybe not.

The recommended doses for cyanocobalamin based supplements are here: http://veganhealth.org/articles/dailyrecs
http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/everyvegan
Two doses of 1000mcg/week are among the easiest ways.

Also its how much you absorb that matters, which varies according to the dose, perhaps because of saturation of your receptors,, so although the rda mentions around 2mcg/day, if you take 2000/week its not equivalent to you being good for 2000days, just that your weeks rda would be met since only a small fraction would be absorbed. Hence regular supplementation.

Interestingly this is different between the different kinds of b12 supplements, with methylcobalamin requiring daily doses of 1000mcg concentration so effectively 7000mcg a week if my interpretation is right
http://jacknorrisrd.com/what-b12-supple ... ld-i-take/
One wouldn't be required to take this form unless diagnosed with certain conditions as are mentioned there and obviously this form would work out to be more expensive.
I've seen this difference being mentioned by gregger as well though I don't know about what study its based on.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AvpePfC9hh8
I'd suggest listening to gregger here, not bitesizes views which aren't scientific.

garrethdsouza wrote: I don't know how far that's true or scientifically based that irregular supplementing is OK.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2294086/

The common cause of vitamin B12 deficiency is malabsorption.12 It takes 2 to 5 years to develop vitamin B12 deficiency, even in the presence of severe malabsorption.13 Our patients did not have clinical features suggestive of malabsorption.

https://labtestsonline.org/understandin ... itaminb12/

The body stores 3 to 6 years worth of B12 and about a 3 months' supply of folate in the liver. So a B12 and/or folate deficiency reflects a chronic shortage of one or both of these vitamins.

First two hits.
It's pretty well known to take years to develop a deficiency.
If you supplement regularly for several months, you should have normal or high levels systemically, and then could hypothetically stop supplementing for a couple years.

That said, of course it is better to supplement regularly to be safe. And not showing signs of deficiency doesn't mean your levels aren't low, or that you wouldn't benefit from more regular supplementation. It's not really clear either way. But B-12 is harmless and cheap, so it's a good idea to do it a couple times a week.

I don't disagree with the recommendations.

garrethdsouza wrote: Also its how much you absorb that matters, which varies according to the dose, perhaps because of saturation of your receptors,, so although the rda mentions around 2mcg/day, if you take 2000/week its not equivalent to you being good for 2000days,

Of course not, since storage maxes out at around 700 days no matter how much you get. An injection might circumvent absorption, but it's also not quite as clear how B-12 absorption works or is modulated. IIRC, it's known that vegans absorb a lot more of it, and reuse it much more efficiently, due to lower consumption. It could potentially be like iron, where low consumption makes you more vulnerable to overdose (not really relevant in B-12 since it's less dangerous) due to a quick spike because the mechanisms that absorb it are in overdrive. You might actually absorb more from the vitamins you take if you took it once a month. But again, as far as I've read, that's not clear. B-12 absorption seems to be poorly understood. Of course, taking such huge doses pretty much guarantees a good level.

garrethdsouza wrote: I'd suggest listening to gregger here, not bitesizes views which aren't scientific.

What's bitesizes views?

I don't disagree with the recommendations made by any of the main vegan health experts, I'm just saying while you need to supplement sometimes, you don't need to be afraid of deficiency as long as you DO supplement sometimes.

I don't think fortified food is ever going to be a reliable source today.


I searched and found this, is that what you're talking about? bitesizevegan.com/vegan-health/vitamin-b12-deficiency-not-just-for-vegans-anymore/
Yes, that's a load of shit.
20-30 years, internal production No.
You have maybe a couple years of a safety net, during which (at some point, and for a couple months) you need to spend some time supplementing on something other than the minute quantities in "soil", and even beyond the irregular but much more significant (but still too small) amounts in fortified foods.