Vaccine hesitancy

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Emeralds
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Vaccine hesitancy

Post by Emeralds »

Hi, I wonder if you guys could help me with a colleague who is vaccine hesitant. She is a medical doctor who is refusing to get the COVID-19 vaccine under the healthcare mandate. I was curious and asked her why she is refusing. She told me that since she has a good understanding biochemistry and medicine, she is more informed about “the dangers” of the COVID-19 vaccine than most people.

My question is whether I should try and dispute some of her claims. She has emailed me a bunch of information and most of it is conspiratorial in nature (e.g., mind control of mainstream media/governments etc). Some of the papers she sent includes complex biochemistry content that I don’t really understand. I want to help her but at the same time it seems futile. She is very willing to discuss things with me and is not at all aggressive in her demeanour.

I can see people on here love to debate things philosophically on any topic. So I was wondering if any of you had any thoughts or advice on this. Thank you :)
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Re: Vaccine hesitancy

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Seems to be classic Dunning-Kruger effect from where I'm standing.

Medical Doctors are not qualified scientists, and thus have no authority to speak on issues like biochemistry; there is a massive knowledge gap between the two fields. I bet you anything she has absolutely no understanding of the science mentioned in those articles, and just googled "complex biochemistry" then sent you the first link to make it look like she did her research. If she actually did her research, she'd know the vaccines are perfectly safe and are supported by the overwhelming majority of scientists, instead of reading shit she found on NaturalNews.

Also, just because she practices medicine does not mean she has any idea as to how it works (evidently). Doctors are more in the business of applying the science than actually understanding it.

This isn't too uncommon, when people talk outside of their fields because they have expertise in one. Doctors also tend to think of themselves as authorities on nutrition, even though they probably know about it as much as the average scientifically illiterate moron.

Even if her position qualified her to talk about these things in this matter, the scientific consensus is what really matters, not the opinion of one or two people. You'll find nutters in every field who are supposed to be experts (like, you'll find atmospheric scientists who reject climate change).

If you want, please invite her here if she's really willing to discuss. It'd be a fun conversation. :D
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Emeralds
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Re: Vaccine hesitancy

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She would not come here as she avoids most news and media due to the belief that they are corrupt. She has a bachelors in science majoring in biochemistry. I have read through some of her stuff. I really did not think her beliefs were as strange as this (especially someone with her medical and research background). She believes that vaccines increases risk of infection, hospitalisation, and death and that there is a gag order on reporting any adverse effects from the vaccines. There is some other conspiratorial stuff about 5G and Bill Gates etc. I feel like I have an obligation to respond to these claims but not entirely sure how to do this.
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Jebus
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Re: Vaccine hesitancy

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Ask her if she thinks "the dangers" only apply to her personally or if she thinks society as a whole would be worse off if more people refused the vaccine. Perhaps then she would realize that she is being extremely selfish.

Perhaps @DrDavid has something to add.
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Re: Vaccine hesitancy

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Emeralds wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:47 am She would not come here as she avoids most news and media due to the belief that they are corrupt.
Why does she believe this? She sounds like a paranoid conspiracy theorist.
Emeralds wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:47 amShe has a bachelors in science majoring in biochemistry. I have read through some of her stuff. I really did not think her beliefs were as strange as this (especially someone with her medical and research background).
That's even worse then; She SHOULD know better than this.

I would still say it's a Dunning-Kruger effect though. I doubt someone with Bachelor's in biochemistry should be questioning someone with a Master's or a PhD.

Either way though she's still completely ignorant of basic immunology.
Emeralds wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:47 amShe believes that vaccines increases risk of infection, hospitalisation, and death and that there is a gag order on reporting any adverse effects from the vaccines. There is some other conspiratorial stuff about 5G and Bill Gates etc. I feel like I have an obligation to respond to these claims but not entirely sure how to do this.
Does she know that conspiracies are mathematically impossible, especially at this scale?
https://www.popularmechanics.com/scienc ... mpossible/
She would have to be assuming that all these scientists, news reporters, and governmental organizations (altogether totaling in at least a few million people), are in on a conspiracy and none of them have blown the whistle on it after nearly a year of vaccination campaigns.
This article is pretty interesting (albeit a big long), and shows how a large enough conspiracy just can't last:
https://www.cracked.com/article_15740_w ... e-job.html
Here's a pretty good quote:
David Wong wrote: I don't know how big of a job that would be (no one has ever demolished a building that size before) but a building just half the size of one WTC tower took 4,000 separate charges to bring down. Four thousand.

That job took seven months of prep work... and they had the run of an abandoned building, without having to hide their work from 100,000 people every day. Our demolition crew, on the other hand, can work only at night and has to spend the last bit of every shift carefully repairing the wall and hiding any evidence of charges or detonators as not to be discovered during the day.

Huge teams of demolitions experts, who had no problem wiring a building full of innocent New Yorkers to explode, hired in secret, worked every night for what had to be a year (and that's only if they had a big enough crew) placing maybe 10,000 separate charges in each tower and another few thousand in WTC 7 (the smaller WTC tower that also collapsed, later in the day on 9/11).

And nobody notices.

That's right. That's the theory they're putting out there. 100,000 DVDs they've sold with this.

Truckloads of bombs, dozens of mysterious workers, going in and out of the building, night after night. Security at the building doesn't catch them, Port Authority Police don't catch them, random eyewitnesses who stumble across the operation and call the cops don't catch them, maintenance workers who stumble across wet paint and repaired walls and bits of strange wire don't catch them, security cameras don't catch them.
I don't think there's reasoning with her, it takes a lot to want to dedicate yourself to such delusions. You can try though. Maybe appeal to her sense of guilt, and as Jebus said tell her how not getting vaccinated is extremely irresponsible, and if she really cares about the well-being of other people (as her job literally requires) she would go with the experts on the matter rather than saying she knows better than all of them, and tell her to stop relying on obvious fake-news that only confirms what she wants to believe.

I would even go as far as to say she ought to have her medical license revoked.
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Emeralds
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Re: Vaccine hesitancy

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Jebus wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:35 am Ask her if she thinks "the dangers" only apply to her personally or if she thinks society as a whole would be worse off if more people refused the vaccine. Perhaps then she would realize that she is being extremely selfish.
No, she actually believes COVID-19 vaccinations are bad for society as a whole, and that all who are in hospital or dying from COVID-19 are vaccinated.
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Re: Vaccine hesitancy

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Red wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:46 pm Why does she believe this? She sounds like a paranoid conspiracy theorist.
I could not believe it! I would never have guessed that she would be into conspiracy theories.
Red wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:46 pm I would still say it's a Dunning-Kruger effect though. I doubt someone with Bachelor's in biochemistry should be questioning someone with a Master's or a PhD.
She has a masters in medical research! I am not sure how she got through the program; she has such a poor understanding of epidemiology.
Red wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:46 pm Does she know that conspiracies are mathematically impossible, especially at this scale?
https://www.popularmechanics.com/scienc ... mpossible/
She would have to be assuming that all these scientists, news reporters, and governmental organizations (altogether totaling in at least a few million people), are in on a conspiracy and none of them have blown the whistle on it after nearly a year of vaccination campaigns.
I am unsure how someone as educated as her (especially in the field of medicine and research) would have such strange beliefs. I do not know what leads someone to believe in conspiracies. It might be that her partner (a naturopath) believes in this stuff and she is just complicit with this? She is also a part of an underground group that discusses these conspiracy theories daily. She even mentioned that she might be kidnapped from work and thrown into a quarantine facility (which the government are secretly building) against her will!
Red wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:46 pm I don't think there's reasoning with her, it takes a lot to want to dedicate yourself to such delusions. You can try though. Maybe appeal to her sense of guilt, and as Jebus said tell her how not getting vaccinated is extremely irresponsible, and if she really cares about the well-being of other people (as her job literally requires) she would go with the experts on the matter rather than saying she knows better than all of them, and tell her to stop relying on obvious fake-news that only confirms what she wants to believe.

I would even go as far as to say she ought to have her medical license revoked.
Well she is on leave at the moment. I will at least try to respond to her claims by pointing out the low quality of her references and what it means by relative risk (vaccinated vs unvaccinated). I also want to try and clarify what she actually believes (she just sent me all this material without really clarifying her position). I don’t think I will change her mind but I do want to do my part in disputing this misinformation. She is shutting herself out from society.
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Re: Vaccine hesitancy

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Emeralds wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:23 pm I could not believe it! I would never have guessed that she would be into conspiracy theories.
Hey look I'm just guessing here.
Emeralds wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:23 pm She has a masters in medical research! I am not sure how she got through the program; she has such a poor understanding of epidemiology.
What type of medical research has she done?

Guess a crazy will always slip through the cracks.
Emeralds wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:23 pm I am unsure how someone as educated as her (especially in the field of medicine and research) would have such strange beliefs. I do not know what leads someone to believe in conspiracies.
Many reasons, sometimes it's plain paranoia, other times it's wanting to feel like the smart one while everyone else is just an obedient sheep.

However:
Emeralds wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:23 pm It might be that her partner (a naturopath) believes in this stuff and she is just complicit with this?
That would make sense. It seems as though her partner has brainwashed her to ignore science and go with pseudoscience. Maybe it was some cognitive dissonance; As in "I'm with my partner and my partner is a rational person, and therefore his/her beliefs are rational. Why would I be in love with an irrational person?"

And this isn't just disagreeing about some actual issue, this is about beliefs that are WAY out there. Your friend seems to be beyond hope I'm sorry to say.
Emeralds wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:23 pmShe is also a part of an underground group that discusses these conspiracy theories daily. She even mentioned that she might be kidnapped from work and thrown into a quarantine facility (which the government are secretly building) against her will!
Man she downed that Kool-Aid good. She doesn't seem interested in actually correcting her beliefs, despite what she may say.
Emeralds wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:23 pm Well she is on leave at the moment. I will at least try to respond to her claims by pointing out the low quality of her references and what it means by relative risk (vaccinated vs unvaccinated). I also want to try and clarify what she actually believes (she just sent me all this material without really clarifying her position). I don’t think I will change her mind but I do want to do my part in disputing this misinformation. She is shutting herself out from society.
You really should try, but don't expect much if she's this dedicated to the BS. Again though, you can invite her here to discuss, but I have a pretty good feeling she'll decline.
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Jebus
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Re: Vaccine hesitancy

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This could (and should) cost her her license. https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/d ... -says.html
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Re: Vaccine hesitancy

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Jebus wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:35 am Ask her if she thinks "the dangers" only apply to her personally or if she thinks society as a whole would be worse off if more people refused the vaccine. Perhaps then she would realize that she is being extremely selfish.

Perhaps @DrDavid has something to add.
The danger of HIV-like strains being pressured into dominance by everybody being immune (due to vaccination), though, affects the society as a whole. You know, as has happened with the Marek's Disease in chicken, it became resistant to the immune system due to massive vaccination of chicken. Now, it is extremely unlikely a typo in the genetic code of COVID-19 could make it gain HIV-like abilities to shut down the immune system, so that is not a valid argument, but it might seem like one to somebody only barely familiar with the topic.
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