Horse Riding

[Red]

This is something I've been wondering, is riding horses unethical? I've heard it hurts their backs and stuff like that if done excessively, but is there any possible way to justify it?

Also, is it okay to buy video games that use horses for motion capture?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWeBoJRORwQ

[joji]

I think vegans on either side of the debate would agree that if the horse suffers (physical pain or mental stress) as a result of horse riding or any aspect that arises from keeping them then it is an unethical practice.

But let's say the horse does not suffer. Even still, one camp would argue that any exploitation of animals is wrong and that horses are not there for our entertainment or benefit. What about keeping horses that you don't ride? Obviously, if you had the chance to rescue a horse, it would be the right thing to do. However, does a rescued horse need to be ridden to be healthy?

The other camp would argue that if the horse does not suffer, then what's the problem? I suppose one justification could be mutual benefit and companionship, similar to keeping pets? I know many people form strong bonds and relationships with their horses.

Personally, I am unsure where I stand. A part of me doesn't like the idea of keeping animals for the benefit they give us. But then again, if the horse isn't suffering I cannot see it as much different to owning a pet.

I'd love to hear any other thoughts on the matter.

[Red]

@joji It's important not to equate use and abuse. There isn't anything inherently wrong with 'use,' but 'abuse' is where things like this can become problematic.

[thebestofenergy]

Riding horses requires more context to be understood.

Are you riding a horse one time in the wild to save your life?
Or are you paying a horse riding company to have a fun trip?

I'll just assume it's the latter, since that's the most common case where horse riding happens.

Let's look at the pros and cons of horse riding.

Pros:

- You have fun (although that fun is fungible with something else, as in you could have fun doing another activity)

Cons:

- You pay money regularly for being able to horse ride regularly
- You finance an industry that keeps horses captive, with limited space to move
- The horses are likely killed once they're too old to be horse riding
- Horses aren't anatomically made to be ridden, and riding them can injure them, and if not an immediate injury, it injures their back over time - at which point the horse wouldn't be remunerative, and the only logical business choice would be to kill it
- Horses likely don't enjoy having people riding them and commanding them around (just as you wouldn't if you were a horse)
- Horses are artificially inseminated similarly to cows, to be bred
- Most of the gear used to horse ride is leather (non-vegan)

It's pretty clear that horse riding is a net negative.

I'm sure people can find a less harmful activity that can give them fun and have speed/adrenaline (e.g. mountain biking, skating, skiing, etc.) that doesn't involve the abuse of animals.
By doing and paying for horse riding, you're increasing demand for a 'sport' that forcefully impregnates horses, and forces them into a captive life until they either get injured or are too old (at which point, they're killed, likely sent to slaughter).

[joji]

Riding horses requires more context to be understood.

Are you riding a horse one time in the wild to save your life?
Or are you paying a horse riding company to have a fun trip?

I agree, the second is absolutely a net negative for the reasons you stated and probably a net negative in any circumstance other than the first... What about the act of riding a rescue horse? Many horse owners claim the horse "needs" to be ridden to keep it healthy, but these arguments seem to be nonsense to me. Surely given enough space to freely move around, a horse isn't go to stay in one spot indefinitely without human input...

@joji It's important not to equate use and abuse. There isn't anything inherently wrong with 'use,' but 'abuse' is where things like this can become problematic.

Thanks for pointing that out. I'm still diving into the differences between the consequentialist and deontological arguments for veganism. My head felt like it was going to explode last night - I might start a thread soon asking for some links to resources that lay out the two sides more clearly? My question is, would use in any context (that isn't strictly necessary) be deemed unethical from the deontological perspective?

Please excuse me if I'm not being super clear this is all verrry new to me!

[Red]

Thanks for pointing that out. I'm still diving into the differences between the consequentialist and deontological arguments for veganism. My head felt like it was going to explode last night - I might start a thread soon asking for some links to resources that lay out the two sides more clearly?

Please excuse me if I'm not being super clear this is all verrry new to me!

Oh don't worry about it, I had basically no idea about any of this stuff too at one point! Don't worry, studying it and participating and discussions is a quick way to learn.

If you want a source, you can check out our Wiki:
wiki/index.php/Main_Page

My question is, would use in any context (that isn't strictly necessary) be deemed unethical from the deontological perspective?

I assume you mean 'No matter the reasoning or consequences, it's unethical' and I believe the answer is yes. Kant famously argued that lying would always be wrong, even if it's lying to a murderer about the whereabouts of his next victim.

Deontology brings about an arbitrary set of rules that must be followed no matter what. When you see how it fails in practice, it all falls apart to any rational person.

[joji]

Oh don't worry about it, I had basically no idea about any of this stuff too at one point! Don't worry, studying it and participating and discussions is a quick way to learn.

If you want a source, you can check out our Wiki:
http://philosophicalvegan.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

Thank you! I'll check it out

I assume you mean 'No matter the reasoning or consequences, it's unethical' and I believe the answer is yes. Kant famously argued that lying would always be wrong, even if it's lying to a murderer about the whereabouts of his next victim.

Deontology brings about an arbitrary set of rules that must be followed no matter what. When you see how it fails in practice, it all falls apart to any rational person.

Yes. That results in quite an... interesting position. One could surely always imagine exceptions to the rules? And that makes it much clearer to me why suffering based arguments disagree with position. I saw one person somewhere say they would refuse to eat a burger because it's wrong, even though it would save more cows in the process, and that seems a bit illogical to me. Hmm.

[thebestofenergy]

Riding horses requires more context to be understood.

Are you riding a horse one time in the wild to save your life?
Or are you paying a horse riding company to have a fun trip?

I agree, the second is absolutely a net negative for the reasons you stated and probably a net negative in any circumstance other than the first... What about the act of riding a rescue horse? Many horse owners claim the horse "needs" to be ridden to keep it healthy, but these arguments seem to be nonsense to me. Surely given enough space to freely move around, a horse isn't go to stay in one spot indefinitely without human input...

Yes, the argument that a horse needs to be ridden is very weak, and is used as an excuse.

Considering the fact that the more you ride a horse, the more likely the horse is to injure himself due to him not being able to safely carry you, you can see that the harm goes hand-in-hand with what's supposedly making the horse happy.
On top of that, it's pretty clear that the horse would enjoy himself more without a heavy weight on his back commanding him around. That's not freedom - certainly nothing close to being able to do as he pleases, like he'd otherwise do if left alone.

If you really want to rescue a horse, you should ideally have an open green area for the horse to be in, and have at least another one rescued to keep company (horses are social animals).

[boitatá]

Once heard a presentation from a person who treats horses and it left no doubt that they develop problems from being mounted and mounted activities.

[Peppesq]

im scared to get back on a horse lmao