Fox hunting debate

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NonZeroSum
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Location: North Wales, UK

Fox hunting debate

Post by NonZeroSum » Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:36 pm

I grew up veggie in North Wales, debating with friends who were from farming families and pro-fox hunting about my vegetarianism was part of the reason that pushed me to go vegan when I was 15, peer pressure sadly turned my brother the other way to eating meat and still to this day.

So anyway, a fair few of my facebook friends are still farmers, pro-fox hunting. Last two weeks been in this long conversation and you can tell tensions are high, but have really valued the chance to hear people's experiences with the issue. Just thought to post it here incase it was of interest to anyone to skim read and give your two cents.

In related news The Labour Party are trying to capitalize on this issue for I think being an easy public majority, where the conservatives won't budge, so there's a petition out which has almost reached 200,000 signatures:

Back Labour’s call to end fox hunting for good

Despite Labour’s 2004 ban on fox hunting, Theresa May has said that she has "always been in favour of fox hunting", while Michael Gove has so far refused to close loopholes in the law.

With Tory cuts to police and little resource for the National Wildlife Crime Unit, convictions have fallen to historic lows – despite hunting groups claiming that the practice is as popular as ever.

Send a clear message to the Tories: it’s time to truly end this barbaric blood sport for good.

Sign our petition to back Labour’s call to stamp out illegal fox hunting for good.

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Kate shared a post.

Disgusting ... claiming to love animals but frighten them and torment them?? Logical!! .... if anyone tried anything like that with my Ella she would literally kick the shit out of them 😂🤣 she’s known for lifting her legs at anyone or anything behind her 🙃
Protesters need to fuck off and let the tradition be!!

Urban Pictures UK
Scuffles and clashes occurred at a Boxing Day hunt protest this morning. The demo took place at the Tredegar Arms, Bassaleg, Newport, Wales. Featured in the Daily Mail, BBC Wales News, Mirror, Metro, WalesOnline, and The Sun


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Theo Slade

Some thoughts...

Three quarters of the British population support the ban on fox hunting, so Tony Blair declared he would institute the will of the people. But he ended up leaving a ton of loopholes, likely horse-trading with the conservatives. So the public are forced to protest to try and keep up the pressure. Hunts are regularly documented purposefully killing foxes.

Hunting with hounds started in the 16th century to try to kill off predator species from killing domesticated prey species that we’d bred to be extra vulnerable. Like bull fighting, coursing, dog fighting, many just want the tradition confined to the history books.

A hunt supporter was charged with grievous boderly harm for likely breaking a persons eye socket. Seems important to add encase this is the only news people hear about the day.

Anti-hunt protester taken to hospital after Boxing Day clashes

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Kate Theo if someone was trying to frighten my horse with either me or my daughter on I would gladly fight back... more than a broken eye too... claim to love animals and anti fox hunting.... yet its acceptable to frighten and physically assault an animal and its rider?
Like I said... if the sabs had a pet, livestock or worse their child attacked by a fox(this has actually happened!) they would be for the hunt... foxes kill chickens and lambs, its people living in the city’s in their apartment blocks who sabotage and have no idea on fox hunts... my daughter will be taking part in these hunts which only use SCENT .. many different opinions and we are all entitled too them 🙂 but drag hunting a scent is completely acceptable.. and yes sometimes a fox may cross the path of the hunt but its coincidence


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Theo Slade It’s a failure of party politics. Labour were voted in on a pledge of ending fox hunting, Tony Blair the war monger purposefully didn’t follow through all the way. I’m saying if the ban was actually put into effect, you wouldn’t be allowed to bring dogs out who were trained to tear apart foxes, see article linked. And there would be no need for protests, what you have is a lot of public resentment overflowing into the street all over the country that is bound to result in these situations. Hunt supporters have killed a hunt protester before.

Any dangerous animals should be deterred from approaching buildings that means less livestock, clean cities, trap and release, etc. And I don’t think animals are things to be owned.

ANIMAL TORTURE CHAMBERS FOUND AT HUNT KENNELS

The hunt protester who was killed



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Sara Theo Slade trap and release is one of the worst killers of foxes. Urban foxes have no idea how to survive in the wild and end up starving... how very humane! We’ve actually been approached by a mange ridden three legged fox that had obviously undergone amputation and then released into the wild.....3 legs for goodness sake. It was barely recognisable as a fox it was that poorly. It had to be shot, by a farmer to put the poor thing out of its misery. Also, hounds are not ‘trained’ to shred an animal, they have developed over hundreds of years to follow scent, even though the scent can now be synthesised there is no way for them to distinguish between a real or laid scent so you will always get mix ups; it’s no-ones fault. Hunt sabs regularly call hounds into roads with a ‘gizmo’ or hunt horn, they regularly put barbed wire across tracks to injure horses so you tell me - is it about animal welfare, or a perceived class distinction? Sabs also regularly attack both women and children. If they really believe they have the moral high ground why do they all wear balaclavas? The hunt supporters don’t! I would like to see your evidence that a protestor has been killed by a supporter as the only one I am aware of was the case of Tom Worby in 1993; who’s own girlfriend who was with him that day stated he was not a sab and she is sick of the sabs portraying him and the incident as some sort of sab hero. She stated he was just bored and that it was simply an accident - so if this is the incident you are referring to then you are sadly misinformed. I have however seen many instances of supporters being assaulted - even at bloodhound meets. How utterly clueless!

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Theo Slade Congrats on building a big straw man and laying into it so heavily.

I’m glad you put the fox out of its misery so fast and I’m sorry it came to that. I mentioned many solutions, firstly reducing the size of a group of vulnerable animals like lambs and chickens, also sure protecting them better by big breeds of dog who can simply act as deterrent. Secondly more street cleaners and waste enforcement. Thirdly trap and release to deter dangerous animals from approaching buildings in the first instance.

There have been 513 prosecutions under the hunting act because of purposeful killing of foxes, obvious digging out foxes with terriers, etc. This is a remarkable number in itself because of the ease with which hunts can claim “no ones fault”. I simply don’t believe in bringing dogs out who want to rip foxes limb form limb. 3/4 of the public don’t either, it will eventually be legislated against properly and it’ll be right that the barbaric tradition is ended.

I could list hundreds of attacks from hunt supporters like people putting hammers through people’s windshields, but my comment was to say it’s a shit situation that the law was never properly introduced, so hunt protesters only recourse to enforcing the people’s will is to go out into the field and document hunt abuses themselves. Not all hunt sabs hide their identity, and I agree there is a strong element of class conflict. Again I’d like there not to be, I don’t want there to be a route for animal rights advocates to become more radicalised from getting beaten up by aristocrats and their lackies, I just want the law to be enforced and the majority’s will respected, which the fox hunts routinely abuse.

Cite your source about Tom Worby’s girlfriend, I could only find one anonymous comment that could easily be a troll, while there are plenty of testimonies of a car speeding down a single road at a group of people, in which a person was killed whether again you try to dismiss it as reckless no one’s fault or not.

Prosecutions - Hunting Act


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Sara Theo Slade I get your point in certain instances, but I don’t see how a large dog as a deterant would work when you are dealing with hill farms spread over large areas. It could potentially work with chickens but even then, foxes are incredibly cunning and I’m certain would find an area of vulnerability. I do agree that the law in it’s current form is simply not fit for purpose it neither protects the fox, nor provides adequate guidance for the hunt. I would strongly disagree that 3/4 of the population agree with the banning of fox hunting. These surveys are often taken in built up areas where people have little idea about life in the countryside. Quite often the views of those that actually live and work in the country are blatantly ignored. I would also point out that fox control has become more indiscriminate since the ban, with many farmers/landowners now shooting foxes themselves; unfortunately it is very difficult to place an accurate kill shot on a fox and therefore they are often left to die painful, slow deaths. There seems to be a common misconception that anyone that hunts is some sort of bloodthirsty barbarian. Most of them are just ordinary country people (not aristocrats), who are incredibly caring and aware of animal welfare. They look after their stock, their pets, and their surrounding wildlife etc in the best possible way. I understand that people see a fox being ripped apart as barbaric, but when you consider how quick it is versus several of the alternative methods of control; it’s actually one of the quickest ways to despatch a fox. Also hunts operated in a particular season so as to avoid killing vixens with cubs/pregnant vixens. Farmers and landowners have no such season and are now operating their pest control at any given time. I can completely see why people disagree with fox hunting, believe me, I get it. However there is another side, and another point of view. Neither side should be using violence or intimidation to get their point across!

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Kate shared a post.
Lovely little animals the hunt sabs say 🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄

Killer urban fox attacks baby in her bouncer after sneaking into family home


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Theo Slade
Didn’t have tinternet to reply before, so will just give final thoughts here.
Fox kills cat > RSPBA do nothing > Fox goes on to injure baby
Cows break woman’s neck on public footpath > Farmer does nothing > Cows go on to kill man

- Court orders farmer, 83, to pay £30,000 over Britain's 'most dangerous herd of cows' that killed one rambler in spate of attacks


“Hunts across the country are breeding foxes in specially made dens to ensure an adequate supply of the animals, undermining claims that they are killed only in the name of pest control. The 'artificial earths' are built on the territory of more than 50 hunts, from the Isle of Wight to Cumbria,”

- Hunters 'breeding foxes' to provide for the kill

Sara talked of more farmers shooting foxes as reason for there not to be a ban. I’d just say how government works is one legislation at a time. I’d love to see funded wildlife management workshops all round the country. If there really is an overpopulation of foxes (that can’t yet be solved with humane methods like birth control drugs left in bait) then let well skilled, well equipped, sharp shooters take them out with rounds capable of blowing up an elephant for all I care. But yeah, as a society we need to get over the most cruel forms of killing first, so swarms of dogs chasing down and ripping apart foxes for our pleasure.


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Sara Theo Slade my point was that most farmers are NOT good shots and foxes are hard to make a clean kill shot on, so more are going off and dying slow deaths over a number of hours or sometimes days, or they use snares, which are equally drawn out if not longer, a fox being ripped apart by a pack of dogs is not actually the worst way for them to go. It LOOKS worse, and for all those that like everything all neatly packaged in lovely consumer friendly parcels, sure it would seem horrendous....but given the current alternatives it really is not as bad. Plus people forget that when wolves roamed the country foxes were chased all and killed all the time, not to eat but to stop them competing in the same territory. So what is the difference? Mainly that there are people following the dogs on foot or in a horse! So what is the real issue here, that foxes are bones killed, or that they are being killed by ‘posh’ people? And you advocate some sort of chemical control....because that has worked wonders for the poor rabbit population hasn’t it? Seeing a rabbit dying of mixi is horrible and wherever possible any country person would quickly bash it over the head with something.... but hang on that might look cruel so maybe next time I should just leave it to slowly and agonisingly die. I’m sorry Theo but you seem to show a lack of practical understanding of how these things work in reality not theory. It’s all very well reading some books and articles but it’s the people that live and take care of the countryside and have done for thousands of years that should be able to have a say in how it is taken care of. Country people may do some things that ‘look’ bad, but quite honestly I would far rather be ripped apart by a pack of hounds in mere seconds than be shot in the leg and die slowly and in agony. Even this is a mute point because hunting is now done within the law, yes there are mistakes, but hundreds of people die on the roads every year; should we ban cars? Sometimes people die on the operating table, should we ban surgery?

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Theo Slade Sara I completely understood your second to last reply where you gave a long explanation about more farmers killing foxes because of the ban and the foxes dying bad deaths. That’s what I was replying to. My reply was to say I hope both for a tighter fox ban and higher skilled, higher caliber hunting, payed for with funding for things like wildlife management workshops if people want to go along to them.

I could go on all day about benefit to the ecomomy of more investment in tourism and less on animal agriculture and why this would be more ethical, but I’m sticking to the topic at hand. Going to sleep now, night.


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Theo Slade Okay some more clarifications, since I was so misunderstood.

I said ‘if there really is an overpopulation issue that can’t yet be solved by more humane methods like birth control drugs’. That’s me acknowledging there hasn’t yet been enough research, simply that it will be great when there are more humane and efficient forms of wildlife management.

Squirrel Birth Control: To Stop Invasion, Science Gets Seedy

To take from that that I would have been in favour of giving biological diseases to rabbits is a big leap of inference and unfair to tar me with that brush, or further that I’m not in favour of pragmatic solutions.

Also you taking from my saying “most cruel form of killing” to mean that I only care about how it looks, so it must be a class issue. I already said that I don’t like that aspect to the conflict from both sides. Cruelty isn’t simply aesthetics or a utility calculus, in people it’s intention in the action.


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Sara Theo Slade I was a pointing out that even when it was thought to have been a ‘good’ solution it didn’t, in reality, work. Maybe one day there will be control by other, more humane methods; in ideal world that would be amazing. However, are you saying that even trail hunting should be banned? That even those working within the law have no right to continue. As even though most hunts operate within the law, currently we still have so many horrible accusations thrown at us. We are not a bloodthirsty mob, chasing poor cuddly fox across the countryside. Trail hunting is different. No-one revels in a fox being caught up in the fray and being killed, yet we are somehow being tarred with the same brush as those that went before. Yes, we know it is not perfect, and yes we know that mistakes happen; but there is no way for us to prevent them, and in all honesty it often (not always) happens when sabs have drawn the hounds off the laid trail. I do not know a single hunt that has bred anything to chase, and quite honestly that is disgusting and I don’t know anyone in our hunting community who would condone that kind of behaviour. The vast majority of us hunt within the law, exercise all precautions and try to enjoy our sport with the minimum of impact to any other animals. However, we are all lumped into the same box; goes hunting therefore must be some barbaric bloodthirsty murderer. It is the same as saying all Muslims are terrorists, or all Irish are. It simply isn’t correct or fair. Imagine having your young child approached by some bloke in a balaclava yelling and screaming ‘c**t’ at them, imagine someone jumping out of a hedge running towards you, waving a bat at your horse? Always in balaclavas. These are things we have tolerated for too long; we are not breaking the law, and those who do are gradually being weeded out. But like I said before, this is not about animal welfare, or the law. It is about a large group of organised thugs who use the excuse of ‘animal rights’ to set up ‘gofundme’ pages so they can continue causing trouble on private land for people they believe to be ‘posh’; simple as that. They don’t care about animal welfare (most of them), they don’t think twice about laying barb wire across a track for a horse to run into, or call hounds into roads with a gizmo or hunt horn for them to be hit by cars. Yes, amongst them there will be some genuine people, but in my eyes if you have the courage of your convictions then you would hide behind a mask!

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Theo Slade So we both agree the fox hunt ban was poorly implemented. I just read apparently the only reason it was one of the election promises was because Tony Blair thought it sounded good when asked on question time, but later regretted it and tried to say he mispoke. Like how David Cameron introduced gay marriage but later said he regretted the decision for sowing too much division in his party. Today’s Labour Party have an election promise about tightening the ban so that no dogs should ever really be brought out in packs for recklessly killing wildlife, which I am for. I’d also support funding more skilled hunters with the right equipment, and countryside user groups deciding on wildlife management jobs, but that would all need to be voted on separately.

Agreed about masking up marking a bad relationship between hunt supporters, sabs, observers and police. See picture of terrier men hiding their identity and arson attack suspected by hunt supporters below:

Image

Police investigating hunt robbery and assault claims

Farmer hospitalised by arson attack after he told fox hunters to get off his land warns of civil war brewing in countryside

As to you saying; “We try to enjoy our sport with the minimum of impact to any other animals.” Why other and not all? The ‘sport’ if it really was trying to conform to the law shouldn’t be enjoying having an impact on any animals.

Anyway I’m happy to hear that the law has resulted in a genuine change in attitude for some about not enjoying getting to see foxes ripped apart. I hope if your hunt group genuinely practised a simple scent trail away from fox habitat and the risk that dogs could recklessly kill, that if you saw anything illegal like the bringing along of terriers to flush or dig out foxes you’d have the courage to speak up.

I’m curious to go along, just to observe and film what I see to report back, and I’ll happily talk to sabs if I see them doing anything I think is wrong. I’d love to do a video with questions answered by a variety of people on both sides of opinion, like this youtube channel below does for the israeli-palestinian conflict, that helps answer questions and humanises both peoples:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tazBWkgtyzc

All the best.
Police investigating hunt robbery and assault claims


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Smarie Sara 🤦🏻♀️ what an absolute idiot !

There’s a difference between killing to protect and killing for a snobs hobby ! Disgusting !!!
imagine advocating killing for a hobby 😂😂


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Sara Smarie you have obviously failed to read all my comments, especially those regarding foxes now being killed in greater numbers by even less humane methods. In addition to the fact that most hunts do not in fact hunt love quarry - but I’m not going to waste my breathe trying to explain it all over again. You have also just completely confirmed my point that people are primarily against ‘snobs’, not advocating for animal welfare.... see what I mean Theo Slade

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Smarie Sara you implore that is probably nicer to be killed by a pack of dogs than a bullet…
I read your boring comments to the point where you said you’d support more skilled hunters , you also implied that being killed by a pack dogs was better than being shot !. The difference in the farmer and the hunting, is one is for protection and one is for a hobby. Therefore you are advocating it !

Im not going to entertain anyone who would Imply hobby killing is right !.


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Sara Smarie no I have never used the word ‘nice’ when it comes to killing ANY animal. What I said was given the choice between dying over a number of days because I’m caught in a snare, or dying even more slowly of septicaemia because I’ve suffered a non-fatal gun shot wound or being killed by dogs in seconds; then personally I would choose the dogs.

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Smarie I can’t even .... 🤦🏻♀️ have a nice day Sara

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Kate Foxes kill livestock... and urban foxes have known to physically attack babies... I know ide choose to kill any animal comes near my babies... it’s the same as killing rats and other pests... we are saying that legal hunts don’t actualy chase real foxes Smarie they don’t go out to kill them they use a rag with a scent on them... and in some cases yes a fox will cross the path but the hunt doesn’t intend to go out and rip them apart anymore... Yes farmers will kill foxes who are a threat to their livestock like they shoot dogs who chase sheep... you would shoot a dog chasing and killing your child or livestock??
killing animals isn’t a hobby, they chase a rag... and farmers kill to protect their livestock... I find it more disgusting that the hunt sabs protesting animal right find it completely ok to scare and terrorise horses with riders and children riders? Causing fatal injuries? Enjoying the hobby 🙂 the hobby that is hunting a rag tied to a mans leg 😂


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Smarie They are still illegally hobby killing you know ? It happened the other day?

They do, scent hunt but there are occasions where their still killing foxes and suggesting the Fox got in the way.

There’s defence and there’s hobby killing that’s my argument .
I wouldn’t suggest I would rather a fox be ragged around by a pack of dogs getting caught up in a hobby than a defence. Very brave statement to make

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Kate They can’t stop the foxes crossing the path of a hunt.... they aren’t intending to chase the fox... yes it does sometimes happen... in mine and Sara’s case our ‘hobby’ does not include killing the fox... but if they are to cross the path of the scent the dogs will go after them it’s in their nature.. can’t exactly stop 100 hounds running that fast..... and farmers don’t kill the fox for the fun of it or for a hobby they kill to protect their own livestock.... foxes arent cute and lovely animals to they are destructive... people put rat traps and poison slowly killing the rats but that’s ok? It’s ok for cats to kill mice and rats? It’s ok to send dogs down holes for rabbits?
Legal genuine hunts DONT chase a fox and like I said it’s difficult when a fox crosses the path... but I will agree with Sara on that statement if you wanted to get rid of foxes to protect your own then a slower painful death going on for days is much more cruel Smarie don’t you think? You would rather it be killed fast than injure the animal and allow it to roam around in agony for days with a slow painful death? I know what ide rather... by the way this isn’t an argument, it’s a discussion between different opinions, p.s
We aren’t all snobs on horseback in fact personally im the furthest away from a snob 🤣 more common than Vicky pollard 🤣😂 x


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Sara Kate I wouldn’t bother Kate, She has either chosen to misinterpret my comments or just doesn’t get the point! Either way there is no point in having discussions with people who only want to understand one side of a debate!

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Smarie *she has a BA Hons so I think I have more than enough ability to read through your uneducated, unproven comments thanks for the concern though hun. Sara [last name removed] I was just simply wondering when was the last
Time you were mauled to death by foxes to give your opinion of how you’d prefer to die 😂


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Theo Slade Sara Kate Here's a long hypothetical for you both, bare with me.

Enough farmers are being funded to be skilled up and tooled up with the right equipment, so that foxes are being killed instantly 99% of the time (waiting to have clear line of shot, shooting multiple rounds so even if it's in the 1% it's a few seconds of pain), they have enough money and time on their hands and are sharp shooting enough foxes that their habitat is restricted to the top of some hills with only forest and cows say. There's no danger of rural foxes attacking any livestock. And they're not near enough to houses where they could hurt people. There's a widespread effort to eradicate urban foxes by trapping then euthenizing or keeping them in a sanctuary to be tested to see whether they can be released and flourish in the wild.

Would you go out trail hunting near that fox habitat with a pack of dogs that could recklessly kill foxes?


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SaraTheo Slade no wouldn’t go trail hunting in/near those areas. There are many areas that are currently avoided in order to preserve habitat, and stay away from nesting ground birds etc.

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Theo Slade Sara okay good to hear, just want to make it explicitly clear what I meant a second time:

So for hypotheticals sake, let's imagine fox habitat with no other animal life whatsover, and no rare plant/fungi. But lots of fun obstacles and brush of the kind fox hunters like to go out and just enjoy riding through. There's no other landscape like it for 100s of miles, only bare sheep fields and stone walls. Foxes aren't being a pest per the premises in my first reply.

You wouldn't go trail hunting through the fox habitat where the huntsman's pack of dogs could recklessly kill foxes?


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Kate Theo Slade no we wouldn’t trail hunt through the habitats for the 100th time we chase a rag 🙃

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Theo Slade Kate I'm really glad to hear it, I'd love to know the stats on this, fox hunters faced with a 100 mile desert of grass fields vs. chance to chase a trail through thick woodland with foxes in it. It reveals how many still do it for the chance to see dogs kill. It probably would put hairs on your neck then reading about all the torture chambers people around the world come up with to train dogs to rip apart animals. Foxes were even introduced to Australia and New Zealand so people could get to hunt them down there as well.

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Theo Slade So I've said most of it before, but in summary the hurdles to overcome are funding to train and equip farmers to be better shots (the ethical compulsion not to leave a fox dying for hours also, but that can probably only properly be brought about by better education or peer pressure), tightening the legislation on reckless killing with packs of dogs and larger wildlife preservation areas which would mean less unnecessary subsidising animal agriculture and more incentives towards tourism opportunities, and more people going vegan to incentivise breeding less animals and freeing up land.

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Kate Vegans are taking over ... we have been meat eaters for centuries.. I will not be going vegan for sure ... our farming industry would disappear would leave farmers without a living and empty land as a lot is not suitable for building or green belted.. which I think is good our countryside is beautiful why ruin it... I can’t agree with the animal agriculture because I support our local farmers it’s their lively hood... that would kill our heritage

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Theo Slade Kate Farming opportunities will reduce over a long long period of time, long enough for people to adapt their skill sets or retire.
Not empty land, wildlife areas for tourism.
Agree we don't need more houses, building planning can just be more efficient in towns and build upwards.
Cultures adapt, used to be our economy was heavily dependent on cotton production from slavery.


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Sara Theo foxes were introduced to Australia in 1871, it’s hardly an accusation that can be levelled at modern day hunts. That seems wholly unfair. Also the torture chambers you mention are abhorrent but are to do with dog fighting and badger baiting etc and not the modern day hunt; with the exception of one alleged case, which quite honestly is disgusting-as I have already said. The vegan argument is a mute point as more sentient animals are killed in the production per kilogram of protein for a vegan diet than per kg of meat protein; or do only cuddly foxes count, not mice (poisoned and chopped up in combines for arable land), or insects, or worms? I don’t think arming more farmers is necessarily the answer. More likely individuals who’s only job is pest control. Also I would say that in response to your earlier point. If habitat was set aside for foxes alone, etc, etc. Then hunts would do what they do now; build stone walls, create jumpable hedge land, rails etc. On which they can then enjoy the riding and work the hounds along a trail as well. Hunts already create jumps on permitted routes, that’s the whole point. Use natural surroundings where possible, create and adapt in other areas to make the most of the trail that’s laid.

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Theo Sara

> foxes were introduced to Australia in 1871, it’s hardly an accusation that can be levelled at modern day hunts.

It obviously wasn’t something I’m accusing people of doing now, but everything from building artificial homes for foxes, having an off season for foxes to breed and replenish their number, exporting them abroad was done in the service of getting to enjoy chasing them down and seeing them ripped apart. It’s an undeniable part of fox hunting history and why I don’t value it as a tradition worth preserving to any extent.

> The vegan argument is a mute point as more sentient animals are killed in the production per kilogram of protein for a vegan diet than per kg of meat protein; or do only cuddly foxes count, not mice (poisoned and chopped up in combines for arable land), or insects, or worms?

So the reason you consider veganism a non-issue is because you do an accounting of the number of microscopic insects deprived off life when you pick an apple off the ground and wash it off and compare that to one cow, seems a little disingenuous hahaha. There does exist this thing called a sentience scale that I know you know of which I speak. But really come on, I didn’t even bring up ethics, avoiding animal products is a really easy thing to want to do ecologically, for going down the trophic level, using less land that can be freed up for wildlife. If you must know my ethics, I’m a virtue existentialist, I want dignity for all life, which means dense wildlife habitat for animals where they can flourish using all their evolved capabilities and me not employing other humans to put a knife across a pigs throat which is more intelligent than a dog. I actually don’t buy Birdseye peas for what I’ve heard about their huge monoculture farms combine killing every sort of animal, if you want to help petition for a sticker that easily demarcates companies which are better for having less indirect industry deaths, be my guest.

> I don’t think arming more farmers is necessarily the answer. More likely individuals who’s only job is pest control.

Agreed I wouldn’t want more, just the skilling up of the ones who can’t be stopped from going out there and doing it badly, trying to police individual hunters over bad shots would be kind of a terrible use of tax-payers money at this stage.

> Also I would say that in response to your earlier point. If habitat was set aside for foxes alone, etc, etc. Then hunts would do what they do now; build stone walls, create jumpable hedge land, rails etc. On which they can then enjoy the riding and work the hounds along a trail as well. Hunts already create jumps on permitted routes, that’s the whole point. Use natural surroundings where possible, create and adapt in other areas to make the most of the trail that’s laid.

Again glad to hear it, I’m just absolutely sure that a lot more fox hunters 20 years ago would have been openly self-righteous about their right to enjoy seeing foxes get killed, if new rationalisations develop out of an attempt to appear to be abiding by the law and public will then great, at least it’s a step in the right direction.


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Sara Theo Slade apologies I didn’t mean to sound so dismissive of the vegan argument in general. Tired and not explaining myself very well. I just meant that it seems unfair to ignore the impact on all other species in the pursuit of the protection of a single animal (in this case the fox). Although there are studies showing that the vegan diet is not necessarily as ‘animal friendly’ as it can be portrayed, in that many more animals and habitat (both flora and fauna) are affected by the production of crops for a vegan diet than those in the production of meat protein. I do however find that the sentence ‘ .... an attempt to appear to be abiding by the law’ is again unfair to those that are actually abiding by the law and trying to find ways, albeit sometimes imperfectly, to continue their sport whilst also respecting the law and its intention. It means that basically no credit at all is being given to those trying to make an improvement...

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Theo Slade Sara

> It means that basically no credit at all is being given to those trying to make an improvement...

Well that would be because as I said I don't care for trying to improve on the tradition in any way. Have an outing of skillfull horse running and jumping, don't bring dogs along that can recklessly kill wildlife for no good reason. I'm concerned with the rationalisations, and I'm genuinely glad a culture of different thought processes has set in, it is at least a step in the right direction.

> there are studies showing that the vegan diet is not necessarily as ‘animal friendly’

Would be happy to review them, but I can garuntee you that in terms of the scale of land use and not paying people to breed and kill highly intelegent mammels, my diet get's me closer to the world I want to live in.


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Sara Theo Slade I’m not actually trying to knock veganism, and if that is your choice then it is commendable that you stick to your principles. The point in the hunt though is not just the skill of the horse/rider it is also about the skill and communication of the hounds themselves. To watch a pack of hounds ‘speaking’ to each other and using all their skills in unison to pick up and follow a scent across challenging terrain is also a remarkable thing. Is it not OK to want to find a way that enables these amazing animals to continue to do what they have been bred for over centuries whilst also staying within the law and protecting the fox? It is my personal belief that foxes are vermin and need to be controlled as such (as ethically as possible). However, that does not mean that I enjoy killing a fox or set out to kill one. I haven’t even hunted in years as my health won’t allow it, however the point of it for me was/is to go out across amazing country and watch an incredible display of cooperation and unity from the hounds, and also the partnerships between horses/riders. It is a privilege to hunt on a horse; nothing to do with money, not that kind of privilege. To achieve the understanding and level of communication between horse and rider that is necessary in order to follow and keep up with hounds across challenging country is an extraordinary feeling. Horse and rider have to truly work as one, and this cannot be achieved in other riding disciplines. To watch hounds work is also truly amazing, they communicate in such intricate ways, and are capable of covering huge amounts of ground with ease. I admire them and I honestly believe that to lose hounds completely would be such a sad thing to happen. I honestly believe there must be a way of finding some sort of compromise that is acceptable and kind to everyone. However, those that do genuinely try are currently targeted and treated just as badly as those that aren’t; surely that is counter productive? I know of bloodhound packs that have also been targeted by sabs, which is utterly ridiculous as bloodhounds have NEVER tracked a fox (or any wild animal), they are bred and developed for hundreds of years for tracking humans. This is how I know that for many sabs it is not about animal welfare, but perceived class, and they are profiting from those who donate to them; those people who probably are genuinely concerned with animal welfare.

Ordering the vegetarian meal? There's more animal blood on your hands


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Theo Slade Sara Yeah riding with bloodhounds sounds like a fairly innocuous tradition that goes back to feudal lords having enough money to keep them & sniffing out rebels on the run, which has some utility today for search and rescue. If every trail hunter moved over to that I would see no reason to protest it today.

The reason for advocating against trail hunting with basset hounds that regularly kill foxes is to shift human society’s ethics away from that of the wolf or dog. If you want to admire the wolf's capability to track down its prey and be able to feed its cubs, go out with some binoculars or watch a nature documentary. But being the ones who breed the dogs, and provide the opportunity for them to chase down and rip apart a fox, all for a day’s enjoyment out riding, when there are so many more ethical ways of managing their population, is a cruel sport.

Breeding domesticated animals and regularly tearing them away from their mothers to be slit across the throat is a close 2nd because they are simply supplying a demand, when there's no way to mass distribute hunted meat on such a scale that people consume.

Sharp shooting your own hunted animals and eating it yourself, can be more ecologically friendly than veganism, so would be last on my list of things to advocate banning.

So there you go anyway, if you want to understand the other side, every fox sab & sab supporter I've ever known have been vegan and simply respects the fox’s wildness. The people who think foxes are cute, are the furthest from animal rights and at the opposite end of the animal rights - animal welfare spectrum, and are likely vegetarian/vegan because they love their pets, that's where the strange consequentialist accounting of sentient beings come in.

It's really simple for me, I'm vegan for the virtue of not employing anyone else to directly breed and kill animals, and if I didn't hold that virtue I also wouldn't be able to advocate for reducing land use needed to keep me fed, so more can go to wildlife habitat.

Indirect industry deaths of small animals in fields is a problem faced by all people who want to eat, I don't eat any more grain that indirectly kills field mice because I'm vegan, and a lot more grain goes to feed animals over their lifetime to feed meat eaters. It will simply be a lot easier to manage with less land needed to feed a vegan world, and there will be all the positive virtue of the wildlife being able to exercise the maximum of their capabilities, living a dignified life.


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Sara Theo Slade again you have perhaps deliberately or possibly on purpose chosen to ignore the fact that the fox hounds (not bassets) when utilised within the law are not being used to rip apart foxes. Watching a nature documentary is hardly the same thing as watching hounds work a trail and following in partnership with your horse..... and again you make insinuations that people that do so are posh lords, which once again reinforces my argument that the main issue is the wrongly perceived class divide. I know nurses, firefighters, shopkeepers, mechanics, lorry drivers, farmers, that hunt - [within the law, and without infringement; I will state again as it is a point you continually refuse to acknowledge]. You also keep choosing to ignore the fact that sabs often lay wire across tracks which risks injuring the horses, cover ditches to potentially bring the horse down, and have on many occasions called hounds onto busy roads using false hound cry (a gizmo). And they do so whilst wearing balaclavas and shouting abuse at children. I fail to understand how anyone can possibly do that in the name of animal rights! I think we are done here.

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Theo Slade > again you have perhaps deliberately or possibly on purpose chosen to ignore the fact that the fox hounds (not bassets) when utilised within the law are not being used to rip apart foxes.

Never implied that they always were… I’m completely willing to take you on your word that you don’t go out for that reason as well. Just that my ethics and opinion about priorities in advocating to shift society away from killing animals goes:

1. Cruel sports
2. Animal farming
3. Sharp shooting hunting

Running with slow bloodhounds would pose no risk to wildlife, or with foxhounds through desolate fields where there is legitimately no chance of coming across any wildlife. But where there is any chance, I feel the people at the event are culpable and fitting the definition of a cruel sport.

> Watching a nature documentary is hardly the same thing as watching hounds work a trail and following in partnership with your horse

Agreed, blood hound running sounds like a good replacement for now.

> and again you make insinuations that people that do so are posh lords, which once again reinforces my argument that the main issue is the wrongly perceived class divide.

Nope, just made mention of my reading how far the tradition goes back, whenever someone defends keeping a tradition around because it’s heritage, I think it is important to look at it’s history root and branch. I found it to be pretty innocuous, bloodhounds were reportedly used to try to hunt down Robert the Bruce, Robert the Bruce started a guerrilla insurgency that turned into a clan civil war that engulfed all of Scotland, it’s an interesting story.

> You also keep choosing to ignore the fact that sabs often lay wire across tracks which risks injuring the horses, cover ditches to potentially bring the horse down, and have on many occasions called hounds onto busy roads using false hound cry (a gizmo). And they do so whilst wearing balaclavas and shouting abuse at children. I fail to understand how anyone can possibly do that in the name of animal rights!

Haven’t ignored it once, I said quote: “Agreed about masking up marking a bad relationship between hunt supporters, sabs, observers and police. See picture of terrier men hiding their identity and arson attack suspected by hunt supporters below”. That’s me acknowledging I’m well aware of violence on both sides, you were the only one who ignored my mention of hunt supporters doing the same.

“I’m curious to go along, just to observe and film what I see to report back, and I’ll happily talk to sabs if I see them doing anything I think is wrong.”

“I hope if your hunt group genuinely practised a simple scent trail away from fox habitat and the risk that dogs could recklessly kill, that if you saw anything illegal like the bringing along of terriers to flush or dig out foxes you’d have the courage to speak up.”


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Post by NonZeroSum » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:20 am

Oh yeah, what questions would people have of pro and anti fox hunting people? if I were to do a video standing outside pubs and other places trying to conduct interviews.

I have the idea to ask a few questions of each then split each answer everyone gave compiled together into seperate videos, like this youtube channel below does for the israeli-palestinian conflict, that helps answer questions and humanises peoples for either side, I should say it reveals the extremes of how unhelpful and immoral some people's ideas are too:

Israelis: What if the Romans wanted their land back?

What would you think of a project like this? Taking the time to conduct long friendly interviews using street epistemology on people, but teasing out honest reflections to questions, split down for everyone to see.

Question for pro-fox hunting: In a future world where all foxes are managed to a specific preservation area and no threat to people or livestock, but this preservation area is the only interesting landscape to ride through, there is only 100s of miles of barren sheep fields, would you still feel it is a right for the hunt to go through that area where they could recklessly kill wildlife?

Question for anti-fox hunting: Do you think foxes are cute and cuddly? And would you take one home as a pet if they could be trained / domesticated? (this has happened in russia)
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Post by brimstoneSalad » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:03 pm

I didn't know about the trail hunting stuff. While there might be public support against it (and going around with that many off leash dogs is certainly dangerous), in principle it seems to be something along the lines of joy riding in a car when you know you'll probably generate some roadkill in the process... They seemed to push hard on this point of intent.

I only skimmed, any chance you can itemize the arguments?

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Post by NonZeroSum » Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:46 pm

brimstoneSalad wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:03 pm
I didn't know about the trail hunting stuff. While there might be public support against it (and going around with that many off leash dogs is certainly dangerous), in principle it seems to be something along the lines of joy riding in a car when you know you'll probably generate some roadkill in the process... They seemed to push hard on this point of intent.
Aye, it's not causing a great quantity of suffering compare to what they go home to eat on their plate that night, but it's I think the history of bloodsports in every country is worth hilighting for what we can be happy about moving away from and hopefully towards it's opposite in veganism that is motivated by so much better reasoning.
brimstoneSalad wrote: I only skimmed, any chance you can itemize the arguments?
Sure, it should help me think of some more questions too.

Hunt sabs are violent class war hooligans who don’t care about animal welfare, just want to give foxes a big hug and are only out to make money

Hunt sabs regularly get ganged up on, have been rammed off the road, had hammers thrown through their windscreen while driving, there’s been one death by ‘reckless’ driving and one suspected arson on home property.

Fox sabbing is a serious group activity that a subset of national animal rights chapters get involved with, the accusation that they don’t care about animal welfare is just that they feel they aren’t payed enough respect for their pasture raised animals. It’s true that there’s a disconnect, but more because they are on the animal rights side of the spectrum of just respecting the foxes wildness. As for making money with fundraisers, you couldn’t find bigger crust punks, putting whatever savings they have into a tuppence of petrol for the van trips out; again it’s more annoyance that people would take pride in spending their time sabbing a hunt.

Leave what happens in the countryside to the people who live there.

I’m sympathetic to this from an anarchist tradition, community knowledge and cohesion is the kind of thing you want especially in emergencies like a flood hits, neighbours know who to help and where to find safety. But this event has never really been about that, only aristocrats and social climbers having enough money to participate in a blood sport. So the idea of being resentful of a majority voting against it in a representative democracy stinks of a desire for dictated order, where traditions never change.

Better to be ripped up by dogs than shot and left to die.

Sure, but how the law works is one legislation at a time, no one’s going to say they’re in favour of the latter, it just helps no one to go backwards.

Riding with fox hounds is a delight that is worth the risk

Running with slow bloodhounds might pose no risk to wildlife, or with foxhounds through desolate fields where there is legitimately no chance of coming across any wildlife. But where there is any chance, I feel the people at the event are culpable and fitting the definition of a cruel sport.

Foxes will kill babies given half the chance.

Sure, manage wildlife, eradicate urban foxes and reduce the number and area size of vulnerable livestock so they’re not getting fed and being drawn closer to cities.

.
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Post by NonZeroSum » Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:02 pm

Nice that she grants us that we're winning aha...

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Post by NonZeroSum » Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:56 pm

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New videos:

Terrier men digging out foxes for the hunt - Jan, 2019

Labour Councillor Lewis Keen on Fox Hunting | Scum Remover Podcast #6

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A summary:

Fox hunting began with groups of farmers going out with their dogs and attempting to kill 'the problem' fox that had been daring enough to kill one of their domesticated animal 'property' the night before. Soon after it became a sport associated with aristocracy. Artificial dens were built into the land to keep the fox population artificially high. Foxes were even exported to Australia and New Zealend so they could be hunted there.

Today there's supposed to be a ban in place that outlaws hunting with dogs, but fox hunters simply came up with a new name called trail hunting where they say they're either chasing a person riding with a strong scented rag or they laid a scent trial the night before that hunters have to find.

What's sad is those people who are anti-fox hunting duped into defending the purposeful killing of foxes, think they're defending a harmless pretense, all the while the hunting community can try to claim numbers at these events represent a will to repeal the ban entirely.

2 legitemate options are open to previous fox hunters who want to enjoy the thrill of the chase:

Drag Hunting, a legitimate sport created in the 1800s which was not intended to mimic animal hunting and is done well away from fox habitat. These have their own clubs with courses chosen for their most enjoyable riding, like race car tracks. A well scented drag is pulled along the ground so that there is no chance of the hounds losing their way and riders have to keep up at a good speed.

And:
Clean Boot, or Bloodhound, Hunts are the easiest to distinguish. The clue is in the name. Bloodhounds. A clean boot hunt uses bloodhounds, as opposed to foxhounds, to chase a human quarry. The bloodhounds search for the scent of running people (one or more runners) who will reward them at the end with praise or treats. This type of hunting is also known as “hunting the clean boot”, and it had already been in existence for many years prior to the hunting ban.
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More of the facebook debate:

Kate Theo to be fair as a family we are meat eaters every one of us.... my nain run a farm the eldest of 3 daughters she took over her father .. also it was during the end and after ww2 .. she worked so hard, hence I’ll always support the farmers

Theo Slade Of course the hard graft is admirable, I enjoy the poetry of Hedd Wyn, he helped sheep herd for his family, but it doesn't take anything away from his memory that I can easily imagine him hearding mouflon (wild sheep) from one preservation habitat to another to spread out their grazing.

My grandad was a liverpool docker and his fondest memories are of the hustle and bustle on that water front. I could wish they never invented containers and cranes that replaced men loading and unloading those ships by hand, but I can't live in the past, I just wish that governments fund industry that allows people to re-skill and stay in the same area where they've built community. Families like mine moved to canada and helped build settlements every 100 miles on the map to help industry out there and had a great time. But politics is starting to catch up and see the value in community cohesion.

As much as I dislike the small plain grass feild that Bysons live on that farm near corwen, they are part of the solution. The more re-skilling funding for wildlife managment, engineering and artisan crafts in rural areas the better.


Kate i understand what your saying but the whole world isn’t going to go vegan no matter how much brainwashing goes on... there is nothing more beautiful than our country side and the farming is part of that... just because the worlds changing the snowflakes on a mission to create issues with everything we do, doesn’t mean we should stop doing the things we have done for hundreds of years.... yes animals are killed for meat, just like the natural food chain in wildlife... we have done it for so many years and I don’t care what anyone says meat is good in a diet, Quorn and other veggie options are cool too I have tried it but it would be a tragedy for our farming heritage to go to shit because vegans take over, it’s a way of life, it’s livelihood and to every single farmer it’s their whole world... you can re-skill and whatever but it’s not the same a ‘50 yr old farmer isn’t going to re-skill and change everything he lives for because eating meat is frowned upon...I don’t get why people can’t leave things alone? I wish I was born 60yrs ago in a world where everything was just ok, no crazy vegans no crazy snowflakes about , just people getting in with their own lives and jobs. It’s so sad to see the world going this way.

Theo Slade Kate Well I am thankful for how activists fought 60 years ago to bring about the better world we're living in. 60 years ago there was still conscription into the army, families feared their sons being sent to vietnam, people like the poet Waldo Williams were sent to prison twice for resisting the draft. 50 people at a time would die because of regular coal pit collapses while mine owners got richer and richer, Maggy would later stockpile coal and lock them out of their own industries for fighting for a living wage, but they went back to work with their heads held high anyway and continued the struggle for labour rights.

Also the vegan society was founded in 1944 and the vegeterian society in 1847, there's a rich history of them even founding slavery abolitionist settlements in America and the founder Henry Clubb taking a bullet for the union in the American Civil War.

Vegetarianism: The Story So Far - A Radio History

I've enjoyed discussing these issues with you and Sara, you just have to learn a little more about the different factions in the movement to not stereotype all fox sabs as thinking foxes are cute and cuddly, most of them just respect the foxes wild fierceness and want more managed wildlife habitat. Or that all vegans are snowflakes, here's a case of a well loved vegan who died fighting ISIS in Syria recently:

Tributes to Şahin Qereçox martyred in Deir al-Zour, Northern Syria


Kate Theo I have absolutely nothing against vegans... hunt sabs yes I have everything against them they do not practice peaceful protest they terrorise horses and riders not giving a shit that there is children amongst them... vegans are ok as long as they don’t preach and shove their beliefs and opinions down your neck... we can all have an opinion and all have a right to live the way we want and eating meat is something I have and will always do... I am open minded and I can understand different views but unfortunately I’m yet to meet a vegan who just accepts I eat meat without lecturing me 🙄 or worse! If you want to be vegan you don’t have to broadcast it and get all angry and protest meat eaters just be vegan and be quiet haha 😆

Theo Slade Kate Standing in a field with a camera documenting a hunt breaking the law or calling the dogs back to the huntsman with a whip sounds pretty peaceful to me. Again you don't have to like it, but it's a case of not stereotyping, if you think you have the stats showing more violent encounters at events than non-violent then you should present that. But yeah wherever there is unjustified violence being inflicted on animals, there are going to be people who will push for our societal ethics to move forwards.

North Wales Hunt Saboteurs Video


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