Thoughty2 Video on Education (+What will Education be like in the Future?)

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Thoughty2 Video on Education (+What will Education be like in the Future?)

Post by Red » Sun May 13, 2018 6:34 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLSv17iE_4Q

I don't know how many of you guys have seen this channel, but in short, Thoughty2 is a general interest educational channel on YouTube.

I wanted to bring up this video as it serves as a succinct summary of the problems of the western education system, and how we can go about fixing them. There are a few things I disagree on, such as encouraging people to take up art (I do think people should go into art if they want to, but it should also be balanced out with a scientific or mathematics ), but overall, this is one of the best videos regarding the education system I have seen on YouTube.

It is kind of a long video, about 20 minutes, so here is a quick run down of his points:
  • The education system currently in use has been around since the industrial revolution, and has the undertone of being about obedience, technically in order to prepare for the workforce.
  • If educated properly, anyone can learn anything.
  • It's more about memorization than learning, and most things memorized will be quickly forgotten.
  • For most, especially teenagers, the standard wake up time is poor due to when the brain releases melatonin. Changing the start time by one hour later increases academic performance, among other things.
  • Countries such as Finland that have superior education systems score higher in math, science, and reading.
  • Improving education will create a safer, more progressive world, and will strengthen national ecomomies.
Any thoughts or criticisms?

Onto the subject of education in the future . . .
I assume that in the future, there will be less need for teachers, who will be replaced with electronic databases, due to there being a need for faster transmitting of knowledge, and that there will be too much knowledge to teach traditionally. There will be questions asked, but it will be more about setting up a challenge to answer for the students, by setting up the topic, and thus having the students answer it. You could probably choose to go to o to school or not for education, but most would probably go for more guidance from teachers and friends. Everyone wouldn't be forced to study what the curriculum demands, but whatever they wish as long as it is relevant to the subject.

and no i didnt steal any of that from an essay i read a few years ago
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Post by carnap » Sun May 13, 2018 10:40 pm

There is a basic problem here, education isn't just about learning but also a variety of other social factors. If education was just about learning then it would be foolish to pay for a college education. But having a degree results in a significant economic premium and its not just because it indicates that you've learned something but that it signals a variety of things about you.

Also the most significant part of education isn't "information" but rather skills. Though college students today poorly obtain both yet college degrees still give people a significant economic premium.

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Post by Red » Thu May 17, 2018 7:40 pm

carnap wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 10:40 pm
There is a basic problem here, education isn't just about learning but also a variety of other social factors. If education was just about learning then it would be foolish to pay for a college education. But having a degree results in a significant economic premium and its not just because it indicates that you've learned something but that it signals a variety of things about you.

Also the most significant part of education isn't "information" but rather skills. Though college students today poorly obtain both yet college degrees still give people a significant economic premium.
I agree that it should be about learning a useful trade, such as STEM, and people more memorize than learn. This is a problem somewhat addressed in the video, and it's something that needs to be fixed for the sake of progress.
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Post by carnap » Sun May 20, 2018 12:13 am

Red wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 7:40 pm
I agree that it should be about learning a useful trade, such as STEM, and people more memorize than learn. This is a problem somewhat addressed in the video, and it's something that needs to be fixed for the sake of progress.
I don't think college should be about learning a "useful trade", on the contrary, I think it should be founded on learning our key intellectual traditions. The point I was making was a economic point, a college education is about more than what you learn its also about what the degree signals about you.

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Post by Lay Vegan » Sun May 20, 2018 1:52 am

carnap wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 12:13 am
I don't think college should be about learning a "useful trade", on the contrary, I think it should be founded on learning our key intellectual traditions.
What does this mean?
carnap wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 12:13 am
The point I was making was a economic point, a college education is about more than what you learn its also about what the degree signals about you.
Could you be any more vague? What else is a Bachelor of Arts degree in Psychology supposed to "signal" about someone, besides the fact that they know the basics in that particular field of study? It doesn't mean the student can apply any of the concepts learned in class to any real-world scenario. Unless it's an applied science or math (biomedical engineering, computer science, chemical engineering, nursing, etc.) then it won't tell people much about those who hold them. In other words, it won't tell us much about what the person can do.

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Post by Lay Vegan » Sun May 20, 2018 3:46 am

Informative video, thanks for sharing (also subbed to Thoughty2).

The point about American school hours disrupting our “intended” sleep cycle, and negatively impacting teens’ learning abilities really stood out to me. If evidence doesn’t show that early school hours are beneficial to the learning experience, then it should absolutely be pushed back. Later times could introduce a few problems for teens with jobs and after school activities, but if it helps to improve academic performance, it seems like a relatively easy fix. Would be nice if he referenced that particular study in the description.
Red wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 7:40 pm
There are a few things I disagree on, such as encouraging people to take up art (I do think people should go into art if they want to, but it should also be balanced out with a scientific or mathematics)
If knew you'd mention this :lol: but I'd somewhat agree, given that a lot of the arts programs on their own don't provide much utility. If there was strong evidence to show that the arts improve academic performance in STEM fields, would you be on board?
Red wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 7:40 pm
I agree that it should be about learning a useful trade, such as STEM, and people more memorize than learn. This is a problem somewhat addressed in the video, and it's something that needs to be fixed for the sake of progress.
While I see nothing wrong with pursuing advanced degrees in obscure fields of study, or going to college to learn abstract concepts with little significance to our lives, I think the cost of higher education in the United States doesn’t justify this. Whether or not we want to admit it, people attend higher education to find high paying jobs; i.e. they’re going to learn a trade or skill. College education is literally an investment. You allocate your money to some institution and in return, said institution provides skills for you that ensure higher employment (and income) opportunities.

Overall, I think our education system should balance teaching abstract concepts with skills that have useful real-world applications. Middle and high school students should be encouraged to study computer science, applied maths, and economics for example. Studies which are important and extremely relevant, but not nearly stressed enough. And of course, we should design our cirriculum around genuine learning and creativity, and far less on rote memorization.

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Post by carnap » Sun May 20, 2018 2:15 pm

Lay Vegan wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 1:52 am
What does this mean?
Our intellectual traditions in the west are science, mathematics and philosophy.
Lay Vegan wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 1:52 am
Could you be any more vague? What else is a Bachelor of Arts degree in Psychology supposed to "signal" about someone, besides the fact that they know the basics in that particular field of study?
My comment was brief not vague. I'm referring to (economic) signalling theory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_(economics)

Getting a bachelors, regardless of the subject, signals that someone has been able to get into a college. That the person had the dedication to finish the program. That the person has willing to submit to school authorities about what they should and shouldn't do and such they are likely a conformist to such authorities (an important trait for most businesses) and so on. Degrees signal a lot more about people then what they learned in the program.

Ironically degrees signalling less about knowledge these days, many college students today end college with relatively poor knowledge:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/study-coll ... ning-much/

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Post by carnap » Sun May 20, 2018 2:21 pm

Lay Vegan wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 3:46 am
While I see nothing wrong with pursuing advanced degrees in obscure fields of study, or going to college to learn abstract concepts with little significance to our lives, I think the cost of higher education in the United States doesn’t justify this. Whether or not we want to admit it, people attend higher education to find high paying jobs; i.e. they’re going to learn a trade or skill.
In the United States obtaining an advanced degree for non-trade specific fields (e.g., science, math, philosophy, art, etc) are not only free but you typically get paid. For example the typical ph.d program will offer a tuition fellowship that completely covers your tuition and then provide a $16,000~$25,000 stipend for living costs. Though you typically have to work as a student instructor or researcher for the stipend.

And I didn't attend higher education to find a high paying job, I almost entirely ignored job issues and studied what I wanted to study. People attend college for a variety of reasons.

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Post by Cirion Spellbinder » Sun May 20, 2018 7:00 pm

carnap wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 2:15 pm
Our intellectual traditions in the west are science, mathematics and philosophy.
Is the west part meant to be flavorful or do you think there are other intellectual traditions elsewhere?
Unfortunately it seems the actual study is in a book, but the article is pretty disturbing as someone about to start their undergraduate education. Have you read the book carnap? Assuming you have, could you offer clarification on these:

How do we know it always hasn't been like this (or at least comparably bad)?
Study: College Students Not Learning Much wrote:Half did not take a single course requiring 20 pages of writing during their prior semester, and one-third did not take a single course requiring even 40 pages of reading per week.
What does this have to do with learning? Is there evidence that more work yields better results?
Study: College Students Not Learning Much wrote:The research found an average-scoring student in fall 2005 scored seven percentage points higher in spring of 2007 on the assessment. In other words, those who entered college in the 50th percentile would rise to the equivalent of the 57th after their sophomore years.
Does this mean terrible and great students exhibited better improvements or is it just not mentioned?
Study: College Students Not Learning Much wrote:Overall, the picture doesn't brighten much over four years. After four years, 36 percent of students did not demonstrate significant improvement, compared to 45 percent after two.
What does this mean?

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Post by carnap » Mon May 21, 2018 12:45 am

Cirion Spellbinder wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 7:00 pm
Is the west part meant to be flavorful or do you think there are other intellectual traditions elsewhere?
In a sense yes, but the point was to note that I'm only speaking about western educational systems. I cannot speak for other cultures.
Cirion Spellbinder wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 7:00 pm
What does this have to do with learning? Is there evidence that more work yields better results?
Is there evidence that work yields better results? Yes....obviously there is. You learn skills by practicing them. If college studies aren't reading much or aren't writing much then one shouldn't expect them to be good at these activities. But you'd measure outcomes as well and they don't do well on outcomes.
Cirion Spellbinder wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 7:00 pm
Does this mean terrible and great students exhibited better improvements or is it just not mentioned?
Its an average so some students may do better while others worse. I don't know the distribution off-hand.

Cirion Spellbinder wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 7:00 pm
What does this mean?
The biggest improvements occurred in the first 2 years.

My point here isn't to demonize going to college. Going to college can be a great educational experience but its an experience you will have to create for yourself. At least in my experience, the vast majority of college students don't care about intellectual matters and just want to pass their classes and graduate. But most professors have an intellectual interest in their fields so there is plenty of opportunity for an interested student to engage with them and receive a good education. So don't just go to classes and hand in your work. Go to their office hours, ask them questions, engage as much as you can. Get involved in any projects you can and so on.

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