Philosophical Vegan Forum

So I recently had a discussion with a friend of mine who is (like everyone else I know) a meat-eater. He bought up a fairly new point to me as to why he won't stop eating meat. He said not eating meat can lead to "reduced physical and mental performance". He claims that there are many nutrients in animal foods (not just B12) that vegans and vegetarians are deficient in. I didn't have to look very hard to see where he had gotten his info from, I typed "is meat good for you?" on Google and sure enough the first link took me to a site called authoritynutrition dot com and an article written by Kris Gunnars in which I found nearly all my friend's arguments. So I naturally have to be skeptic about this and I don't want to dismiss it right away. Perhaps people in the this forum could be kind enough to give some feedback and provide some viable sources pertaining this issue... thanks a lot peeps!

What nutrients exactly?
Vegans only need to supplement B12 - or get enough of it with food that are supplemented with B12.
There's also vitamin D3 if you don't take enough sun (like me), and in winter - but that's for every diet.

What are you dubious about? Carnosine? Taurine? Carnitine? EPA/DHA?

These meat apologists are largely conspiracy theorists who will insist that saturated fat and cholesterol are good for you, and vital nutrients. There's no scientific basis for that stuff, and every major governmental and non-governmental actual health authority (including all the major universities that actually do the research) says the exact opposite: that saturated fat and cholesterol should be avoided.

Their arguments amount to "well, science is always changing, therefore science is wrong", then they will cherry pick any study they can find that they think even tenuously supports their position (usually by misunderstanding it).

Your friend sounds like a conspiracy theory nut. If he isn't, show him actual position statements by major government and health authorities, and advise him not to believe everything he reads on the internet. If he is a conspiracy theory nut, there's not much you can do. I avoid those people, because their idiocy is actually painful to me.

thebestofenergy wrote:What nutrients exactly?
Vegans only need to supplement B12 - or get enough of it with food that are supplemented with B12.
There's also vitamin D3 if you don't take enough sun (like me), and in winter - but that's for every diet.

What are you dubious about? Carnosine? Taurine? Carnitine? EPA/DHA?

Yes Carnosine was the nutrient that was suggested to help mental performance and brain development. I've been doing some research and I can't find any legitimate study that proves this in any way.

http://theveganatheist.com/forum/viewto ... 214&p=1991

Already a topic on Carnosine

HarvesterofSorrow wrote: Yes Carnosine was the nutrient that was suggested to help mental performance and brain development. I've been doing some research and I can't find any legitimate study that proves this in any way.

Yeah, there aren't any studies that show consuming or taking carnosine is helpful in any way, since it is very quickly metabolized. Also, it's produced by the body when needed... so... it's pretty much pointless to consume it.
In the future, we may be able to modify Carnosine to make it so it's not metabolized so quickly, in which case it could become a useful anti-ageing supplement; although it might also inhibit the death of certain kinds of cancer that are sensitive the telomere degradation (two sides of the coin).

Carnitine, however, which also occurs in meat is transformed into a carcinogen by gut bacteria and promotes cancer. This is one of the things that makes meat bad for you.

Creatine, if heated to high temperature (e.g. most cooked meat), also becomes carcinogenic. Another thing that makes meat bad for you (although it's fine to take creatine as a nutritional supplement).

Taurine, like Carnosine, is generally understood to be useless in humans as far as I have found.


EPA/DHA, which only occur in significant quantities in fish and other marine animals (aside from supplements made from algae), IS actually useful.
But heavy metals such as mercury also occur in significant and dangerous quantities in most fish and marine animals... and that's the opposite of useful.

There's good and bad in almost everything. The issue with meat is that the good is only marginally good, and can be easily found elsewhere, and the bad is significantly bad and far outweighs any benefit it provides.

All of those substances: Carnosine, Carnitine (if somebody was crazy enough to want to eat it), Creatine, Taurine, EPA/DHA, can be found in vegan forms through supplements, which are healthier and come without any of the accompanying bad things. Except of course carnitine, which IS one of those accompanying bad things... unless you injected it, which I guess would be OK.

EDIT: Don't inject yourself with carnitine. If you really think that's a good idea for some reason, see a doctor...

I would suggest the contrary, as vegan diets, as they are high in antioxidants and low in saturated fat and heme iron, reducing oxidation in your brain and so significantly reducing your risk of Alzheimer's or other forms of dementia. Neal Barnard seems to be the expert on this, you can check out this presentation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxtRilvU5s0 . The formalities end at around 6:30.