Philosophical Vegan Forum

I'm not talking about all of them but here are some things I don't like that I think they should stop doing.

So in the past I was vegan and I think I will give it another try, but here are some things that some vegan do that I don't like.

1. Lie about something like saying there is more protein in that than in meat and when we go check it it's not true but other vegans are just approving without searching. Or just saying nonsense about something that again isn't true.

2. When I get shown videos of animal getting killed or anything. Yes, I know they die but please, don't show this.

3. When I join a group for vegan recipe and someone post something about animal cruelty or again some video about animals getting killed. Not really hungry anymore after that.

4. When a vegan try to look cool and better than everyone by trolling or insulting you. What does this prove? Nothing, it will just get people away from it.

5. When they just make fun of people who aren't vegan making them look stupid. This won't get them to like the vegans.

6. When they call me a murderer and a rapist because I'm not vegan. Yeah, I know you have feelings for the animals but I don't. I have feeling for humans but not animals and this doesn't mean I'm a bad person.

7. Vegan police. Yeah, sometimes it happen that I can make a mistake and buy something that is not vegan, thanks for telling me about something that isn't vegan but don't start looking at everything I do or try to make me feel bad about every mistakes I make and also don't exaggerate on everything.

8. People who take it to the extreme. So I can't play minecraft now? Or I have to play vegan minecraft or anything like that? It's just a game and it's not real.

9. When I am thinking about slowly going vegan but they still call me a murderer or anything. I'm trying here, I can't be perfect all the time.

10. When they say that I will die from a heart attack or cancer. Seriously? Yes, I know the risk are increased, but that doesn't mean I will die and I can still be a healthy meat eater. There are many healthy meat eater.

So yeah that's pretty much it. Those people won't stop me from going vegan, but yeah I don't like when this happen. This is all from my personal experience so it may be different for you. I'm not saying anything against the vegan in general.

Some of the things you say are certainly true. I'm not sure vegans share false info deliberately, you don't need to share false info to make a compelling case for veganism. However I think some false info (e.g. by being a vegan you will save x animals per year) gets shared inadvertently.

Veganism should rest on the accuracy of the arguments primarily, rather than the person, because yes there are annoying and preachy vegans, but the arguments are sound. One wouldn't continue to be a racist because someone argued for racial equality in an imperfect way with shouty arguments. At least, I hope not.

Keep in mind that the vocal, preachy vegans are the minority (probably) but you don't hear the silent majority that might promote veganism differently. This may be especially true in facebook groups and certain other online areas.

I think deep down you know the vegans are right but somehow my gut feeling is that you find the lifestyle inconvenient or still like meat. Bottom line unlike some people who may find veganism a joy of discovery leading them to allegedly miraculous skin, hair and inner peace for you my guess is it may actually be a sacrifice. So, you have to make the sacrifice.

And, maybe veganism isn't right for you but perhaps some compromise like vegetarianism and mostly veganism. It's more important that you don't eat factory farmed meat, it's less important that you snuck some milk chocolate once in a while because you felt like it and it was there.

Also perhaps you can go vegan (or mostly vegan) but that doesn't mean you need to hang out with vegans or join vegan groups. Plenty of people out there have realised the vegan arguments are correct but don't have any interest in joining the vegan scene or having a vegan identity.

Jamie in Chile wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:24 pm Some of the things you say are certainly true. I'm not sure vegans share false info deliberately, you don't need to share false info to make a compelling case for veganism. However I think some false info (e.g. by being a vegan you will save x animals per year) gets shared inadvertently.

It's also pretty vague, it depends on which animals you count and what kind of diet you're talking about.
Counting small fish and shellfish, the number becomes huge, but this hides the lower level of sentience (and probably lower harm) compared to a diet of chickens which would be a smaller number but worse.

I think counts around 200 are probably pretty accurate, though a breakdown by *type* of animal would be more meaningful.
Like 30 chickens (around nine billion killed in the U.S. with a population of around 300 million), and most of the rest being smaller animals, plus a fraction of a cow/pig (a bit over a tenth of a cow, a third of a pig, part of a sheep, etc. adding up to about half an animal).

I think for a lot of these arguments, it's an issue of precision rather than inaccuracy. People just aren't explaining them fully, and they get dulled to the point they can easily be mistaken. 200 cows killed for a person? Certainly not, but that's the kind of impression people might get, and that could put them off thinking it's an obvious lie when it's really just unclear and allows false assumptions.

We could all stand to learn to be more precise.

I'll try to clear some of these up:

Cloppy wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:51 am 1. Lie about something like saying there is more protein in that than in meat and when we go check it it's not true but other vegans are just approving without searching. Or just saying nonsense about something that again isn't true.

Well, there's protein per serving, protein per calorie, protein per gram/weight, protein per volume, protein per dry weight, and then when it comes to meat there are so many cuts of meat (some high in fat) which have less protein in them, and sometimes you even count the bones as part of the weight.

A lot of vegan foods have more protein than meat, but it also depends on the meat you compare it to and how you compare it.
I don't think it's a lie, but it's easy to get confused.

100 calories of kale has 9.5 grams of protein.
100 calories of bacon has 7.2 grams of protein.

I just checked this on cronometer.
So, Kale does have more protein than Bacon... by calorie.
Kale has a lot of water and fiber (good stuff) in it, though, so it's heavier. If you compared food by weight, it would be another matter.

Cloppy wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:51 am 2. When I get shown videos of animal getting killed or anything. Yes, I know they die but please, don't show this.

3. When I join a group for vegan recipe and someone post something about animal cruelty or again some video about animals getting killed. Not really hungry anymore after that.

Many people are turned off by this. I would be curious to hear your views about why.
I think it makes people angry because it's uncomfortable to watch. I don't think anybody likes watching that stuff... but if we look at history, photos of war really help the public to reduce its support of it. So, I don't know. I'm on the fence about this one.

Cloppy wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:51 am 4. When a vegan try to look cool and better than everyone by trolling or insulting you. What does this prove? Nothing, it will just get people away from it.

5. When they just make fun of people who aren't vegan making them look stupid. This won't get them to like the vegans.

I agree, that's really not useful for people to do.

Cloppy wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:51 am 6. When they call me a murderer and a rapist because I'm not vegan. Yeah, I know you have feelings for the animals but I don't. I have feeling for humans but not animals and this doesn't mean I'm a bad person.

You must care some about animal suffering, right?
You just care more about humans? I think most of us do.

I hope you don't mean that you don't care about animals at all. If that were the case, you wouldn't mind the videos of animals being killed, right? I know some people who are more psychopathic like to watch those and laugh at them. You're certainly not that kind of person, I think you have a good heart but you just haven't connected as much with animals.
I hope you care a little, though.

Cloppy wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:51 am 7. Vegan police. Yeah, sometimes it happen that I can make a mistake and buy something that is not vegan, thanks for telling me about something that isn't vegan but don't start looking at everything I do or try to make me feel bad about every mistakes I make and also don't exaggerate on everything.

I agree, if you're trying hard, it's important for people to recognize that and just gently inform, not shame you for small mistakes.

Cloppy wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:51 am 8. People who take it to the extreme. So I can't play minecraft now? Or I have to play vegan minecraft or anything like that? It's just a game and it's not real.

I know what you mean, that's pretty silly. Some people don't understand that veganism is to reduce suffering... animals in video games don't suffer (yet).
Maybe some day with advanced AI the enemies in video games will be like real humans and animals and they will suffer. I hope not.

Cloppy wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:51 am 9. When I am thinking about slowly going vegan but they still call me a murderer or anything. I'm trying here, I can't be perfect all the time.

I'm glad you're trying. People should give more credit and encouragement.

Cloppy wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:51 am 10. When they say that I will die from a heart attack or cancer. Seriously? Yes, I know the risk are increased, but that doesn't mean I will die and I can still be a healthy meat eater. There are many healthy meat eater.

There are also many people who smoke until 90, or play Russian Roulette and survive. Death is a matter of probability.
Saying anything like that for certain (even telling somebody that he'll die if he jumps out of an airplane without a parachute or off a skyscraper) is not correct. People can survive anything if they're lucky enough.
It would be good if people would explain probability more when they say that kind of thing. But unfortunately, people have a hard time understanding probability.
The message that you will be healthier if you eat vegan is a good one... but the message that you will certainly die of X if you don't, or you won't die of X for sure if you do, is a little extreme.


I'll add another one:

All of these communist/anti-capitalist/anarchist vegans make veganism sound like some kind of radical Marxist ideology, and really turns off conservatives and centrists. Particularly when they're very hostile to conservatives.

Cloppy wrote:2. When I get shown videos of animal getting killed or anything. Yes, I know they die but please, don't show this.

So, facts. You don't like people who show you facts.

...

brimstoneSalad wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:46 pm All of these communist/anti-capitalist/anarchist vegans make veganism sound like some kind of radical Marxist ideology, and really turns off conservatives and centrists. Particularly when they're very hostile to conservatives.

I feel a bit mixed about this. I do agree that these people are assholes and shouldn't act like that, but I'd say that we need these types of people if we want veganism to appeal to people who share similar viewpoints. I'd say we need hardcore leftist-vegans as much as we need hardcore rightist-vegans.

I really hate to say it, but we need non-GMO vegans to appeal to the Non-GMO crowd, who I feel would actually listen to them. Then from there, we can convince them to support GMOs.

Generally Acceptable wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:34 pmI'd say we need hardcore leftist-vegans as much as we need hardcore rightist-vegans.

Right, and that is not at all. The equivalent on the opposite side of the spectrum are literal fascists, white supremacists, and neo-nazis, not just Republicans or even Trump supporters.
My issue is not with those favoring a progressive European style socialism. We need left and right leaning vegans -- just not lunatics. We don't need vegan nazis, and we don't need the anarchists on the other extreme.

I wouldn't be as concerned about the left extremists if they weren't so prevalent and vocal. They push away Right leaning people and centrists alike.
I like to see ideological diversity, but this isn't very diverse, and it's hampering pragmatism.

Generally Acceptable wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:34 pmI really hate to say it, but we need non-GMO vegans to appeal to the Non-GMO crowd, who I feel would actually listen to them. Then from there, we can convince them to support GMOs.

I don't think we do, but we wouldn't be left with much else if we kicked them all out. It's also a much less controversial position.

On protein, I wrote a blog to sum up how I see it:
https://whytryveg.wordpress.com/2017/03/05/getting-enough-protein-is-easy/

Brimstone Salad, it's true that the idea that one is said to have saved 46 animals is this year is quite absurd in its precision, if you mostly ate beef rather than chicken becoming vegan and were already an occassional meat eater then the true number might be 5. if you were a regular seafood eater the true number might be 200.

But....far more importantly...the whole idea that you are "saving" animals by becoming vegan is completely false. With the exception of wild caught fish, going vegan doesn't save hardly any lives, not of land animals anyway.

When someone becomes vegan, it's not as if a few pigs are released into the wild. Almost of the animals in our factory farms are going to die for food period. Their lifetimes are very short, easily able to react to demand by birthing less new animals rather than doing anything to ones alive today.

When a person becomes a vegan, it means that animals that would have had a chance to live a crappy life will now not be born and have no life at all. They are "saved" from suffering by not existing at all. Hooray!

The idea that vegans "save" (land) animals is a tiresome argument that is so very prevalent and constantly unchallenged, and yet so clearly wrong.

The truth about veganism is that it doesn't benefit doomed farm animals at all. It's humans and wild animals that benefit from veganism due to more available land for them.

I will add that the fact that vegans are not saving any animals does not work as a moral defence for meat eating. Imagine a parent trying to defend child abuse by saying the child wouldn't be there at all if it wasn't for them. The fact of an animal having been bred for food does not provide a moral defence of cutting their throat.

Jamie in Chile wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:38 pmWhen a person becomes a vegan, it means that animals that would have had a chance to live a crappy life will now not be born and have no life at all. They are "saved" from suffering by not existing at all. Hooray

Absolutely true, although I suspect sarcasm in the "hooray" addition. The way things are going today I actually think this is worthy of hooray.