Pets that are obligate carnivores/omnivores...

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brimstoneSalad
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Re: Pets that are obligate carnivores/omnivores...

Post by brimstoneSalad »

DylanTK wrote:I am a very introverted person, and I've always greatly benefitted from having a pet.[...]When I get home in the evenings, a human face is normally the last thing I want to see. I've been highly introverted my whole life, and not having a pet makes it feel like something is missing.
These may be very personal questions, but they're important to ask:
Are you naturally introverted and asocial, or do you struggle with anxiety and depression? Have you ever had a significant other or a close human friend?
Just because you feel like you don't want something, doesn't mean how you imagine it is accurate, or that you don't need it.

Plenty of people consider themselves loners and say they wouldn't want to live with another person... until they do, and they meet somebody right for them. This, in particular, can be a problem for people with high IQs and 'difficult' personalities, or who may be on the autistic spectrum or may be inclined to asexuality: yes, we are surrounded by horny obnoxious idiots. But there are intelligent, quiet, contemplative, non-obnoxious people out there who make good matches.

No matter how implausible it may seem, there's somebody out there who you would get along with well, and would provide a far better oxytocin boost and better company than a lizard. Leaning on your shoulder and quietly reading a book with you, watching a documentary, trading off on cooking meals, and with his or her own job during the day and freedom to CHOOSE to be with you rather than being locked in a cage.

Christians say God gave man free will because he wanted us to choose to love him. Comparing a pet in a cage and the love of a real human being who chose you, it's not hard to understand how they got the idea that made sense.
DylanTK wrote: It makes me happy to care for animals, and it reduces my anxiety to live with animals. The psychological benefits of keeping pets is well known.
Certainly, over nothing at all it is a benefit. But this may be enabling your asocial behavior, and acting as a pseudo-satisfier when you would (unbeknownst to you) actually benefit much more from a partner.
DylanTK wrote:I could just go with the giant millipede and call it a day. To do so would mean missing out on the opportunity to get to know/care for an animal that I frankly find more interesting and therefore likely more rewarding to care for due to it's level of awareness and reactivity.
And you could just go with a gecko and call it a day, but to do so would likely mean missing out on the opportunity to get to know and care for a real human being who would have several orders of magnitude still more awareness and reactivity.

Maybe you've been hurt in the past: we've all been scratched by cats and bitten by rodents at one point or another. Don't let that dictate your future.

DylanTK wrote:An insect simply is not capable of that level of awareness/cognition.
Nor is a gecko capable of the level of awareness and cognition of a human being. If you want the best, get the best: a girlfriend/boyfriend.
If there's anything interfering with that, focus on overcoming that obstacle. Anxiety, depression, physical insecurity, social awkwardness, whatever.

This sounds harsh, and I don't mean it to be so. I don't think this is good for you (I don't think it's good for any human, we're social animals), and I don't think it's good for the gecko. It's enabling asocial behavior.

Even if it enables asocial behavior to humans, at least adopting a cat or dog from a shelter and saving the animal from euthanasia is good for the animal (and a lot better for the human than a lizard, due to the degree of love and engagement). Supporting commercial breeders to keep an animal in a small cage... I don't think is.

DylanTK wrote:Along those same lines, insects do not have nervous systems with nociceptors, so... No suffering, it would seem.
Physical pain isn't at issue; it's violation of interests, and insects do have those. Insects are sentient, "conscious" beings. Not very sentient, but none the less of some moral concern. If we can avoid unnecessary harm to them, we should.
Oysters are different, and probably non-sentient.

You know there are human beings without the ability to feel physical pain, right? They still want to live. They could be being eaten, unaware, too.

https://youtu.be/tnABHy6tjL8?t=112

But again: What's the problem with having a bird feeder or something outside your window to attract animals? Filling it is a responsibility, and you'll have some interaction with them. Regular visitors will become accustomed to you and stop being scared. No allergy problems, since they're on the other side of glass.
If you get a house with a back yard, you could do even better and keep outside dogs. How severe are your allergies?
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: Pets that are obligate carnivores/omnivores...

Post by brimstoneSalad »

Cinereous wrote:Thank you! I have watched it, but I am still tentative, especially with one male cat.
You can feed your male cat more meat than any females you have. Even males seem not to usually have problems on a partially vegan diet, though. Do you know how to monitor urine pH?
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ReginaL
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Re: Pets that are obligate carnivores/omnivores...

Post by ReginaL »

brimstoneSalad wrote:Certainly, over nothing at all it is a benefit. But this may be enabling your asocial behavior, and acting as a pseudo-satisfier when you would (unbeknownst to you) actually benefit much more from a partner.
I'm not going to address all the points in your post, but I felt compelled to address this. Introversion does not equal asocial behavior; it simply means that one needs time to decompress from social situations and interaction with others. It's a perfectly normal way to be in the world. It's possible to have satisfying relationships with others and to also want time to oneself.

I also think it's important not to project what satisfies us onto another, especially when we don't know the person or their particular history. Yes, humans are social. However, the degree of sociability varies greatly and there is a huge difference between needing less socialization and isolation. I have a partner and the thought of being together all the time, always doing everything together would be my personal idea of hell. I surely would not want him leaning his head on my shoulder while I was trying to read! ;)

Anyway, not everyone wants or needs the same things out of life and it's okay to be the weirdo who would rather spend most evenings alone with a gecko while chatting online with a friend.
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: Pets that are obligate carnivores/omnivores...

Post by brimstoneSalad »

ReginaL wrote:Introversion does not equal asocial behavior; it simply means that one needs time to decompress from social situations and interaction with others.
The way he put it, it sounded very much like the pet was acting as a replacement for more difficult (but likely more fulfilling) human interaction.
A person really needs substantial and varied experience and experimentation to understand what is needed.

There's probably substantial genetic variability, but I think introversion usually has other causes: like most people being irritating, or anxiety or insecurity (which would be the case if one is fine with and desires interaction with a non-judgemental pet vs another human).
You can have a partner (or a dog or cat, or whatever) and still have solitude sometimes. There's nothing wrong with that: the danger is when a relationship with an animal acts as a pseudo-satisfier for emotional connection and a relationship with a human.
ReginaL wrote:I have a partner and the thought of being together all the time, always doing everything together would be my personal idea of hell. I surely would not want him leaning his head on my shoulder while I was trying to read! ;)
I was trying to draw an analogy to a large lizard sitting on one's shoulder. Of course, if it were inhibiting your reading, that would be another matter.
I don't think anybody wants a lizard sitting on his or her lap all day either. We're all prone to overstimulation. But I think he's trying to solve understimulation (not in terms of superficial social engagement, but in terms of emotional connection) in the wrong way. Maybe he's not and a gecko is all he needs, but I'd be remiss if I didn't bring up the possibility.
ReginaL wrote:Anyway, not everyone wants or needs the same things out of life and it's okay to be the weirdo who would rather spend most evenings alone with a gecko while chatting online with a friend.
Why not spend the evening chatting with the friend face to face, and cut out the middle gecko?

I know certain kinds of social engagement can be draining (small talk), but not all are (stimulating intellectual or creative conversation), and not all people (quiet philosophical types who also need their own space sometimes). I think he's making an incorrect assumption about a potential relationship based on draining past experiences or superficial social engagements during the day. Some socialization is energizing instead of draining, and there are people out there who would make a better match than a gecko.
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Re: Pets that are obligate carnivores/omnivores...

Post by PsYcHo »

I don't see a large moral issue with owning a gecko, provided you give it an adequate habitat. There is the concern with it's diet of insects, but it would consume those in the wild anyway, so unless you advocate killing the gecko, no more or less harm is done by confining it in cage. If it has an adequate habitat, it doesn't even realize it is "imprisoned", and if it is denied a mate, it will not produce more geckos that would consume more insects, so the argument could be made that by having it as a pet, overall harm towards sentient beings is reduced.
Alcohol may have been a factor.

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Re: Pets that are obligate carnivores/omnivores...

Post by PsYcHo »

ReginaL wrote: Anyway, not everyone wants or needs the same things out of life and it's okay to be the weirdo who would rather spend most evenings alone with a gecko while chatting online with a friend.
So just for the sake of comedy, I misread this at first glance, but my misread made it hilarious! (I agree, btw)

What I first saw was," Anyway, not everyone wants or needs the same things out of life and it's okay to be the weirdo who would rather spend most evenings alone with a friend while chatting online with a gecko." :D
Alcohol may have been a factor.

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Re: Pets that are obligate carnivores/omnivores...

Post by ReginaL »

PsYcHo wrote:
ReginaL wrote: Anyway, not everyone wants or needs the same things out of life and it's okay to be the weirdo who would rather spend most evenings alone with a gecko while chatting online with a friend.
So just for the sake of comedy, I misread this at first glance, but my misread made it hilarious! (I agree, btw)

What I first saw was," Anyway, not everyone wants or needs the same things out of life and it's okay to be the weirdo who would rather spend most evenings alone with a friend while chatting online with a gecko." :D
That's pretty funny. :)
There's probably substantial genetic variability, but I think introversion usually has other causes: like most people being irritating, or anxiety or insecurity (which would be the case if one is fine with and desires interaction with a non-judgemental pet vs another human).
You can have a partner (or a dog or cat, or whatever) and still have solitude sometimes. There's nothing wrong with that: the danger is when a relationship with an animal acts as a pseudo-satisfier for emotional connection and a relationship with a human.
All I can tell you is that I was quite well-adjusted as a child and spent a great deal of time playing by myself. I had friends, but the vast majority of the time I preferred to be alone. I'm a socially adept introvert. Most people who meet me might even assume I am extroverted because I have no problems socializing, speaking up in a class, or even speaking in front of people. However, it exhausts me and I need to recuperate afterwards. I am very selective about what social engagements I commit to and most of the time I'd prefer to stay at home and do what I want to do.

Since I do know Dylan personally, and very well, I'll assure you that Dylan does socialize and has no problems spending time with people he likes. Much like me, though, he values alone time probably more than the average person. If I thought he was isolating himself due to some inability to connect with other people, I'd make sure he did something about it. I know it's hard to tell just from what someone might write on an internet forum, but Dylan really is fine. And just to prove that I'm not some crazy mother who made my kid into a social pariah, Dylan's brother is probably one of the most socially gregarious people I know. :)
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Re: Pets that are obligate carnivores/omnivores...

Post by PsYcHo »

ReginaL wrote: Since I do know Dylan personally, and very well, I'll assure you that Dylan does socialize and has no problems spending time with people he likes. Much like me, though, he values alone time probably more than the average person. If I thought he was isolating himself due to some inability to connect with other people, I'd make sure he did something about it. I know it's hard to tell just from what someone might write on an internet forum, but Dylan really is fine. And just to prove that I'm not some crazy mother who made my kid into a social pariah, Dylan's brother is probably one of the most socially gregarious people I know. :)
Wow, mother and son on the same forum. You must have a pretty close relationship. :)

I can definitely relate to the need for alone time. Humans are exhausting!

Tell him to get the lizard! And post pics!
Alcohol may have been a factor.

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brimstoneSalad
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Re: Pets that are obligate carnivores/omnivores...

Post by brimstoneSalad »

Thanks ReginaL, that makes me feel better. I won't worry about him.
PsYcHo wrote:There is the concern with it's diet of insects, but it would consume those in the wild anyway, so unless you advocate killing the gecko, no more or less harm is done by confining it in cage.
I don't think the geckos are captured from the wild, but they're bred for pets. So, buying them means there are more geckos, not just the same number of geckos eating insects in a different location.

DylanTK, I would suggest we direct our attention to the allergy issue, if possible. Have you considered allergy shots, medication, and/or a powerful in-home air purification system?
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Re: Pets that are obligate carnivores/omnivores...

Post by DylanTK »

brimstoneSalad wrote:Thanks ReginaL, that makes me feel better. I won't worry about him.
PsYcHo wrote:There is the concern with it's diet of insects, but it would consume those in the wild anyway, so unless you advocate killing the gecko, no more or less harm is done by confining it in cage.
I don't think the geckos are captured from the wild, but they're bred for pets. So, buying them means there are more geckos, not just the same number of geckos eating insects in a different location.

DylanTK, I would suggest we direct our attention to the allergy issue, if possible. Have you considered allergy shots, medication, and/or a powerful in-home air purification system?
Well, I certainly missed a lot. ;)

I have been on numerous allergy and asthma medications throughout my lifetime. I have also tried air purifiers in my bedroom. The best option has been to avoid the offending stimulus.
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