Non-Vegan Ready to discuss!

[Lauradf36]

If you value Christianity, saying something like this doesn't make it look very good.

It can be great and wonderful when people take their beliefs as inspiration to do good and become better people, abstaining from harm to others.
But it's disappointing when people use their beliefs as an excuse to do harm to others, finding some rationalization in scripture (you do know scripture can be used to rationalize stoning gays too, if you're set on it?).

Thank you for your discussion. See the thing is, I do value Christianity. Deeply. Which is my key aim is not always to make it "look good".

There was an analogy given to me once by John Dickson. When you do a pushup, you need to use both your arms, otherwise you'll be unbalanced.
It's the same with Christianity - we need to flex the muscles both of compassion and conviction.
Compassion, because without it we will drive people away, as you suggest. And of course, one of Jesus' key teachings is to love God & love your neighbour above all else - this is the greatest commandment!
But also conviction, because without it, our faith will be weak and useless - we won't be believing it anything but the normal humanist values of our world.

So whilst I certainly don't want to discourage anyone from Christianity, and understand and deeply grieve that it is sometimes used to justify grievous wrongdoings; I must stand up for what I believe in. I can't let go of my convictions and beliefs.

Hope that helped.

[Lauradf36]

God temporarily permitted man to kill and eat certain animals as a compromise, so that he may survive only.
We no longer need to kill animals to survive, and the cruelty we impose on them for our gluttony is unparalleled in human history.

Wow, this is a super interesting point I had not heard of! I do hope I'm not "cherry picking" the Bible as you suggest - I would quote the whole thing, but it didn't quite fit
I hope that similarly you didn't cherry-pick the part where I said the separation between man & animals it creates is mostly my reason?

Anyways. I guess I need to clarify now - Yes, Adam and Eve were most likely vegetarian in the garden of Eden. But due to the fall, after the flood, God clearly gave the animals as food for humanity to eat - "Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything. "But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it". (Genesis 9:3-4)
Later, the sacrifice of animals and the spilling of their blood for Israel’s sin was to point to fact that a death was needed for God to forgive sins (Exdous 12).

As for the point that we no longer need to kill animals to survive, it's an interesting one. I would assume that the ethics of allowing Christians to eat meat weren't purely based on need - a loving & compassionate God certainly wouldn't allow it if He thought it unethical.

That's my personal perspective. I'm sure there are many variants on this in the Christian tradition however.

[Lauradf36]

You can maintain your religious beliefs with or without actually eating the animals, right?
If there were a passage that said "And lo, on Fridays ye shall have the steak special at Applebees, and woe be upon him that does not put butter upon thy baked potato" it would be a different story.

Haha, that is true. However, it's not really about maintaining religious beliefs (God didn't command us to eat meat!) but about this passage allowing the consumption of meat. You don't have to do it, but according to this distinction - it's not unethical.

I'm sure plenty of Vegans don't like that I eat fish, but compared to the harm caused by what I used to eat, it is a big improvement.

I could argue against that one, but then again it's not what I'm trying to do tbh. I'm just curious to see other's perspectives. So I'll leave that one alone.

Have you ever tried to take an egg from a nest/ or "save" a baby bird that fell from a tree? Those birds care a LOT!

That is true! I was trying to think of an animal that wasn't averse to it's children being eaten and I couldn't really think of one haha. Have any others ever been brought up that you don't eat?

Thanks again!

[PsYcHo]

Haha, that is true. However, it's not really about maintaining religious beliefs (God didn't command us to eat meat!) but about this passage allowing the consumption of meat. You don't have to do it, but according to this distinction - it's not unethical.

If you start a thread about the ethics of Christianity, we can discuss whether just because it is allowed, is it ethical? Most of the Vegans here would have no problem with you or anyone else eating meat if it was necessary. Brimstone and I spoke to a gentleman who was in a rough spot in his life, and he didn't want to eat the food at the shelter because it had meat in it. Our position was "eat the damn food, you're hungry and it's there". But you have a choice, right?

I'm sure plenty of Vegans don't like that I eat fish, but compared to the harm caused by what I used to eat, it is a big improvement.

I could argue against that one, but then again it's not what I'm trying to do tbh. I'm just curious to see other's perspectives. So I'll leave that one alone.

Feel free to argue! It's why I'm here. Plus, I never said I was a Vegan.....

That is true! I was trying to think of an animal that wasn't averse to it's children being eaten and I couldn't really think of one haha. Have any others ever been brought up that you don't eat?

Thanks again!

A lot of people don't like it because it sounds gross, some Vegans don't like it because they are sentient, but I have no problem with eating insects. Not just picking up a grasshopper and eating it, but they are working on things like cricket flour, or flavored meal-worms. But hey, the guy who goes by PsYcHo has to be a little off, right?

[brimstoneSalad]

Thank you for your discussion. See the thing is, I do value Christianity. Deeply. Which is my key aim is not always to make it "look good".

Are you trying to make it look bad?

How would you feel if Christians were going around saying that they support slavery because of the Bible?
If you've read it, you know slavery is supported in the Bible. Does that make it OK to do today?
Would you appreciate Christians going around and saying that in order to be a good Christian, you need to believe slavery is OK?

Or would you say, "Hey, you're cherry picking! The Bible also says we should be compassionate. And the comments about slavery were relative to the times in which those people lived: today is a different world, and what was acceptable thousands of years ago is immoral today."

If so, aren't you being a hypocrite here? You're doing the same thing: you're cherry picking and siding with a very specific interpretation of limited sections of the Bible -- which were written in the context of the era when eating meat was necessary for survival just like slavery. You're ignoring the broader context of love and compassion, and just using the parts that you think excuse your behavior.

There was an analogy given to me once by John Dickson. When you do a pushup, you need to use both your arms, otherwise you'll be unbalanced.
It's the same with Christianity - we need to flex the muscles both of compassion and conviction.

How would you fail at being convicted if you showed compassion to animals and stopped killing them? How were Christians of centuries past abandoning their convictions by ending slavery?
Nothing about Christianity commands you to eat meat OR keep slaves. PsYcHo already covered this.

Or maybe you think we should still have slaves, and that should be part of Christian conviction in your opinion (I hope not, but I don't know what kind of person you are)?
How is that any different from eating meat when both are permitted in the bible, and both are no longer necessary today (as they were in the past)?
These are both cruelties that we can choose to end.

Compassion, because without it we will drive people away, as you suggest. And of course, one of Jesus' key teachings is to love God & love your neighbour above all else - this is the greatest commandment!

If that is the greatest of commandments as you said, then follow that above all else. If you let "conviction" limit compassion, then you have made it an enemy of the greatest commandment.

I have a challenge for you. Please watch this (and watch it through to the end):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVE6eZCJZv8

Tell me if you think that represents the compassion and love Jesus taught.

But also conviction, because without it, our faith will be weak and useless - we won't be believing it anything but the normal humanist values of our world.

You can go beyond the humanist values to be MORE compassionate. But don't use your faith as an excuse to fall short of values even atheists have. Don't let your faith make you LESS compassionate.

Nothing in your religion mandates that you cause animal suffering, or that you enslave people. Why choose one and not the other?
Are you set on hitching your religious beliefs to the practice of animal cruelty?

So whilst I certainly don't want to discourage anyone from Christianity, and understand and deeply grieve that it is sometimes used to justify grievous wrongdoings;

You are one of the people using it to justify your wrongdoings, though. I hope you can see the parallels here.

I must stand up for what I believe in. I can't let go of my convictions and beliefs.

You don't have to let go of any of your beliefs to stop causing animal cruelty.
Going vegan is a choice you can make out of compassion.

As for the point that we no longer need to kill animals to survive, it's an interesting one. I would assume that the ethics of allowing Christians to eat meat weren't purely based on need - a loving & compassionate God certainly wouldn't allow it if He thought it unethical.

You don't think that God allows anything that's unethical? Then what about slavery? Explicitly allowed in the bible. So was rape. Warfare. Genocide.
I'm getting the feeling you have not read the Bible, but just look for things to cherry pick. I hope I'm mistaken about that.

If these things were not products of their times -- an unfortunate necessity in a cruel world, and a matter of survival and self defense -- then how do you defend not supporting these things today?
Should Christians support slavery, rape, war, and genocide as condoned by God, and that must be considered moral, allowed, and practiced today? I hope not.

Haha, that is true. However, it's not really about maintaining religious beliefs (God didn't command us to eat meat!) but about this passage allowing the consumption of meat. You don't have to do it, but according to this distinction - it's not unethical.

You don't have to believe eating meat is unethical to be a vegan -- many people make the choice out of practicing compassion, not because they think it's a sin to eat meat. E.g. they may do it as a good thing to avoid meat, rather than judging others negative for eating it.

Do you think it's unethical to not give to charity? If not, then do you disagree with giving to charity? Do you think giving to charity goes against your religious convictions, just because you might not see others as unethical for not doing it?

That said, there's also something to be said for context: In Biblical times, as I said, both slavery and eating meat were allowed.
God never came down from heaven to tell us to stop keeping slaves either. So, is keeping slaves ethical today, even though we live in a different era where it's no longer necessary? Or was it only ethical then, in Biblical times, but it's wrong today?
Ethics of actions can change based on context and necessity.

We can say it was ethical to keep slaves and eat meat in ancient times, because there was a smaller population (so the meat didn't harm the environment and other humans as much), people ate less meat (so they weren't treated as cruelly), and people only did it because of need, just as people kept slaves out of need.
And because of the changing situation, we can say both of these practices are wrong today. When guided by love and compassion, we can understand that we shouldn't do these.

Some people don't know better, though. Many people don't realize eating meat is unnecessary, or they don't know about the cruelty, or environmental destruction (which harms other humans). When we learn better, we can do better -- if we are loving and compassionate.

[Lauradf36]

Whew. I see I'm going to have to defend myself here...

Are you trying to make it look bad?

No! My whole point in going through the conviction/compassion thing was to say that I hold my beliefs not just to be appealing to the world. Not that conviction/compassion determines why I eat meat. If that's what came across. Because yes, like we determined, the Bible definitely doesn't command us to eat meat! But my point was that I don't share my beliefs based on what others think about them.

How would you feel if Christians were going around saying that they support slavery because of the Bible?
If you've read it, you know slavery is supported in the Bible. Does that make it OK to do today?
Would you appreciate Christians going around and saying that in order to be a good Christian, you need to believe slavery is OK?

Or would you say, "Hey, you're cherry picking! The Bible also says we should be compassionate. And the comments about slavery were relative to the times in which those people lived: today is a different world, and what was acceptable thousands of years ago is immoral today."

If we're getting theological here... What many fail to understand is that slavery in biblical times was very different from the slavery that was practiced in the past few centuries in many parts of the world. The slavery in the Bible was not based exclusively on race. People were not enslaved because of their nationality or the color of their skin. In Bible times, slavery was based more on economics; it was a matter of social status. People sold themselves as slaves when they could not pay their debts or provide for their families. In New Testament times, sometimes doctors, lawyers, and even politicians were slaves of someone else. Some people actually chose to be slaves so as to have all their needs provided for by their masters.

How is that any different from eating meat when both are permitted in the bible, and both are no longer necessary today (as they were in the past)?

It's an interesting point. However, I would still say this is ethical rather than cultural. These ethics are based on Genesis, which established the creation order of everything. That creation order remains the same throughout cultures and time and cannot be changed by humans.

You can go beyond the humanist values to be MORE compassionate. But don't use your faith as an excuse to fall short of values even atheists have. Don't let your faith make you LESS compassionate.

The idea of being commanded to be compassionate to animals is also interesting. An argument that I had never heard before!
But I would counter that the Bible doesn't say anything about being compassionate to animals. To humans, yes, but not to animals. It certainly doesn't advocate cruelty against them - but because of the creation order, compassion to humans is emphasised over animals.

I'm getting the feeling you have not read the Bible, but just look for things to cherry pick. I hope I'm mistaken about that.

As someone who has been a Christian for 18 years.

Seems slightly condescending?

But anyway. We'll move on.

Thanks for your points, it's really interesting to hear your perspective. I hope we can appreciate each other's views.

[Lauradf36]

If you start a thread about the ethics of Christianity, we can discuss whether just because it is allowed, is it ethical?

I guess Christian ethics should always be... ethical... if I believe in the religion wholeheartedly. I'm not sure where that is going. But cool point.

I'm sure plenty of Vegans don't like that I eat fish, but compared to the harm caused by what I used to eat, it is a big improvement.

So... I guess my thoughts on that is, if you believe it is wrong to eat animals because they are sentient and this gives them moral worth (if that is indeed what you believe, I don't want to assume) then eating animals because they won't be missed would still constitute a breach of morality. Wouldn't undermine their sentience, I mean. But of course this might not be what you believe!

But hey, the guy who goes by PsYcHo has to be a little off, right?

I'll roll with that

[Jebus]

Welcome Laura,

What made you become a Christian?

[Lauradf36]

What made you become a Christian?

Thanks so much for asking! Love that we can have these discussions without judgement

There really is no short answer to this, because faith/religion is such a complex thing. So you're gonna have to read the whole thing if you really wanna know, haha!

I had the blessing of growing up in a Christian family, and so I heard the Gospel from the word go and was constantly saturated in my family's love & His love for me. I always believed & considered myself a Christian, but I would say it didn't really hit me or become personal to me until later on.

When I was in high school, in about years 8-10, I really struggled with being awkward and social anxiety, and especially of showing my vulnerability and depression to anyone. People would say to me, "why do you look so glum? Can’t you just cheer up? No one's going to like you otherwise” or "There’s Laura sitting all alone making a silent protest.” I believed I would useless to society, that God couldn’t use me for anything, sometimes even that I would be better off dead. I felt like there was no point in living.

It was only half way through year 10 while serving at Church that I found peace that I didn’t need to do anything or be anything to be special to Jesus, but that He would love me anyway. I saw that despite my social anxiety and awkwardness, God was using my weaknesses to serve Him even in such a small way. That while I am small, He is strong. That God is bigger than my flaws and fears.
My sister Melanie was also instrumental in helping me to realise that anxiety and worry is normal. She lovingly stepped me through how to deal with my worries one by one, and reminded me that we are not worthless or useless to God. That we are made in His image (Gen 1:26) and lavished with His love. (1 John 3:1! <3)

Through Mel and serving, I came to realise that God loves us so incredibly deeply. Like, when you think about how massive the universe is, it just blows my mind. We’re not even blips on the radar, and yet God values us more than the radar itself. And I came to know personally that the ultimate expression of God valuing us was in sending His son to die for us, which really shows more than anything that He is willing to give up everything for us, us who are so flawed, yet us who He wants to have a relationship with and work in others through - because He loves us. That's my beliefs anyhow

Any other questions about life as a Christian/my experiences etc. I am so happy to answer!

[PsYcHo]

I guess Christian ethics should always be... ethical... if I believe in the religion wholeheartedly. I'm not sure where that is going. But cool point.

I was raised a Christian, and have no less than 3 preachers in my family. I have no personal interest in converting you to my way of belief, but this is a discussion forum, so people will challenge your beliefs if they disagree. Religion is a deeply personal belief, so I will not challenge any aspect of yours unless you choose to mention specifics about it. (Such as eating meat, or the slavery aspect) If this is something you would like to have a debate on, then I am all in.

I'm sure plenty of Vegans don't like that I eat fish, but compared to the harm caused by what I used to eat, it is a big improvement.

So... I guess my thoughts on that is, if you believe it is wrong to eat animals because they are sentient and this gives them moral worth (if that is indeed what you believe, I don't want to assume) then eating animals because they won't be missed would still constitute a breach of morality. Wouldn't undermine their sentience, I mean. But of course this might not be what you believe!

Ahh, you caught me! But different animals have different levels of sentience. I choose to eat fish because I travel all the time (literally. I haven't been "home" in months) and they are a convenient source of protein that I enjoy eating. I could eat a fast food/ gas station Vegan diet, but it would not be very satisfying, and the chances are that I would just go back to eating meat. (Or maybe not, I have been doing this for a few months now..) Is it morally wrong?... Yeah. At home it is easier to eat Vegan because of the choices, and I was always a bit of "foodie". So I use the (weak) justification that fish are the least of the sentient animals readily available.

I didn't come to this forum expecting to change anything about my diet. But I did some research, and listened to a few of the other people, and really considered what I was eating, and why. I loved bacon, but pork was one of the first things I stopped eating because of the level of intelligence a pig has. And now (surprising even to me) not only do I not eat bacon, I don't even find it appealing.

But hey, the guy who goes by PsYcHo has to be a little off, right?

I'll roll with that

Cool! And if brimstone or someone else challenges your views, don't take it as a personal attack. We challenge beliefs here, not people, so be prepared to defend your position. I changed a few of mine (always grudgingly, because I am stubborn ) because of the arguments others had. I'm not a Vegan, so I only gently challenge dietary choices. (New thing for me) But I have been an Agnostic atheist for a while, so I may challenge your religious beliefs more strongly if you choose to debate them. (Just a quick aside, I considered myself just an agnostic, but after a debate I agreed with brimstone and others (grudgingly) that agnostic atheist was the more logical term, which is why my religion is listed as atheist.) I haven't jumped into the religious debate much yet because brimstone is pretty thorough, and I don't want it to seem like we are "ganging" up against you.