Philosophical Vegan Forum

This post is pretty much an invitation to brainstorm with me. I am thinking of starting a YouTube channel again (I had one a long time ago with gaming montages, of which everything is deleted now). My motivations are that doing research in order to make a product is a really motivating way for me to learn and, if at all possible, I would like to change some people's minds for the better. Given the amount of free time I have, a YouTube channel seems like a great way to do these things. A blog could serve the same purpose, but I dislike the format.

I do not think I would want to talk about religion much, but veganism would be a heavy focus. I'd probably also want to talk about politics, sustainability (e.g. nuclear) and other problems like the threat of AI. Perhaps some stuff about the broader subjects of effective altruism and ethics.

I think in general the rational vegan pool on youtube is rather shallow; Unnatural Vegan and TVA are great but greatly outnumbered. I do think many of the topics I would cover are already done by UV, perhaps better than I could, and all I could do was offer another style and way of arguing in order to perhaps reach more people.

I've got three questions for you guys, but feel free to leave any thoughts or advice you have.
- What gaps do you see in the YouTube landscape that I could fill?
- What are your insights on what kind of videos would be most persuasive to a carnist/dogmatic vegan?
- What would you like to see more of?

What I'd encourage you to do, if you really want to put some new content out there, is this: given your background, you have a great opportunity to frame veganism as a political movement. It's one of the things that I find is lacking in the community and I've thought of doing something like this myself at one point.
You can start off from a philosophical/ethical standpoint and then direct the discussion towards more pragmatic/political concerns. There's so much you can do depending on how much time you're willing to invest and how good your editing skills are.

Anything from comparative policies concerning environmental stuff, to the status of farmed animals and the evolution of animal welfare legislation; how lobby groups and think tanks, or even parties that concern themselves with animal welfare and social change can influence policies/businesses and through which mechanisms; which stakeholders and interest groups are pushing for which result in policy negotiations on a certain issue related to veganism (for example in the recent debate around the new objectives of the EU Common Fisheries Policy, but you can find more popular topics too, like GMOs); presenting carnism as an ideology and comparing veganism to other past or present social justice movements in terms of characteristics and success; the economy of vegan products and businesses etc.

Though I'm not sure whether Youtube is the appropriate medium for this type of content - one weakness is that viewers are usually looking for advice on what they can apply on a personal level, so this might be a bit too macro. Maybe you can frame it in a more easily digestible way for the general public and also go into lighter stuff, like effective debating, travel as a vegan, the psychology of eating meat and the effects of conformism, etc.
You can always add some fillers like "why these myths of eating animals are wrong", "what i eat in a day", or "why this youtuber is mistaken about this" to reach more viewers.

Thanks inator.

inator wrote:What I'd encourage you to do, if you really want to put some new content out there, is this: given your background, you have a great opportunity to frame veganism as a political movement. It's one of the things that I find is lacking in the community and I've thought of doing something like this myself at one point.
You can start off from a philosophical/ethical standpoint and then direct the discussion towards more pragmatic/political concerns. There's so much you can do depending on how much time you're willing to invest and how good your editing skills are.

Anything from comparative policies concerning environmental stuff, to the status of farmed animals and the evolution of animal welfare legislation; how lobby groups and think tanks, or even parties that concern themselves with animal welfare and social change can influence policies/businesses and through which mechanisms; which stakeholders and interest groups are pushing for which result in policy negotiations on a certain issue related to veganism (for example in the recent debate around the new objectives of the EU Common Fisheries Policy, but you can find more popular topics too, like GMOs); presenting carnism as an ideology and comparing veganism to other past or present social justice movements in terms of characteristics and success; the economy of vegan products and businesses etc.llers like "why these myths of eating animals are wrong", "what i eat in a day", or "why this youtuber is mistaken about this" to reach more viewers.

I might just love doing this. You are right, I think, doubting how effective YouTube is for this kind of content. Stuff like this tends to end up in newspapers and magazines. It might also be fit for a podcast. However, I've never seen somebody try something like this on YouTube, perhaps it would actually work. If it's successful it could also be a nice thing to have on my CV; it would show not only proficiency in analyzing policies but communication too.

miniboes wrote:(I had one a long time ago with gaming montages, of which everything is deleted now).

Were they any good? Or were they embarrassing?

miniboes wrote:My motivations are that doing research in order to make a product is a really motivating way for me to learn and, if at all possible, I would like to change some people's minds for the better. Given the amount of free time I have, a YouTube channel seems like a great way to do these things. A blog could serve the same purpose, but I dislike the format.

I agree. YouTube is a great way to spread a message, with how convenient and easy it is. The only downside is that the stuff that gets promoted is the stuff that the idiots like. They'd rather watch someone playing a video game, or a shitty animation with little to no comedic value, rather than something like an educational video (Vsauce is popular, but judging by some of the comments I've seen, some people have no clue what Michael is talking about) or a tutorial on something. Plus, as I've said, most of the community consists of stubborn idiots, who probably aren't open minded to stuff like veganism. You'll be able to convince the open-minded people who watch your videos, so at least it won't be a total lost, and you're convincing the smart ones. I fear that if you convince the stupid ones, they'll be overly-militant (take a New-atheist, but put veganism in lieu of atheism), and you'll just get a bunch of jackasses who just give veganism a bad name.

I like to refer to YouTube as a reverse meritocracy; the stupid content gets promoted more because more people watch it, and the quality-content gets thrown at the bottom because they don't make YouTube as much money.

Sorry about that tangent, I just wanted to get that off my chest. YouTube can do that too!

miniboes wrote: I do not think I would want to talk about religion much, but veganism would be a heavy focus. I'd probably also want to talk about politics, sustainability (e.g. nuclear) and other problems like the threat of AI. Perhaps some stuff about the broader subjects of effective altruism and ethics.

Yeah, don't worry about religion, it's been exhausted to oblivion. You'll just regurgitate everything that has already been said. That is, unless you can come up with your own arguments, or arguments that aren't presented very often, but I honestly think that's redundant and unnecessary. Stick to a certain field, and stick to everything within that field. For instance, if we were to focus on technology, focus on computers, robots, AI, etc.. In this case you're focusing on political and technological subjects. But don't stick with just them specifically for the entirety of your YouTube career, since you'll just get bored of it. Make it your own, you know what I'm saying?

miniboes wrote:I think in general the rational vegan pool on youtube is rather shallow; Unnatural Vegan and TVA are great but greatly outnumbered. I do think many of the topics I would cover are already done by UV, perhaps better than I could, and all I could do was offer another style and way of arguing in order to perhaps reach more people.

I think you'd make a good candidate for another Vegan YouTuber. I recommend doing videos like explaining what veganism is, how to accomplish veganism, your story, refute other videos and the like, ask a question, let the blokes respond in the comments then follow up on that video, etc.. You can also do your own take on things that have been covered, or, if you can, bring something new to the table. If you're unsure about making veganism videos, just do a video about veganism every now and again, and focus on other political things that you have knowledge in.

miniboes wrote: - What gaps do you see in the YouTube landscape that I could fill?

I could see you as another political channel: You'd make an actually good version of the Amazing Atheist, focusing on things with subtly and intellect (judging by your posts). I actually look forward to your content, if you go through with this.

miniboes wrote: - What are your insights on what kind of videos would be most persuasive to a carnist/dogmatic vegan?

Just don't be like Vegan Gains. I would recommend being subtle and accepting of the opponents arguments. If they're being assholes, just casually refute them like TheVeganAtheist or Spellbinder does. If they're throwing insults, I'm not sure. Like I said, the smart ones are your top priority.

miniboes wrote: -What would you like to see more of?

I only use YouTube to watch Mathologer, listen to music, and watch something of interest. But I'd gladly watch your vids!

Hope this was useful in anyway shape of form.

RedAppleGP wrote:I like to refer to YouTube as a reverse meritocracy; the stupid content gets promoted more because more people watch it, and the quality-content gets thrown at the bottom because they don't make YouTube as much money.

It's very comparable to TV. On commercial TV, you see that most of the content ends up being shitty reality TV shows or soaps; quick entertainment that gets a lot of ad revenue cheaply. I find it an interesting phenomenon that all the highest quality TV shows in the UK and Netherlands seem to be on the public service broadcasts (e.g. BBC). Perhaps I can get some government to fund me with tax money.

RedAppleGP wrote: For instance, if we were to focus on technology, focus on computers, robots, AI, etc.. In this case you're focusing on political and technological subjects. But don't stick with just them specifically for the entirety of your YouTube career, since you'll just get bored of it. Make it your own, you know what I'm saying?

Yep. There's going to be overlap here, of course. AI, for example, is not just an issue of technology and math, but also an issue of policy and philosophy.

RedAppleGP wrote:I think you'd make a good candidate for another Vegan YouTuber.

Thank you, sir.

RedAppleGP wrote:I recommend doing videos like explaining what veganism is, how to accomplish veganism, your story, refute other videos and the like, ask a question, let the blokes respond in the comments then follow up on that video, etc.. You can also do your own take on things that have been covered, or, if you can, bring something new to the table. If you're unsure about making veganism videos, just do a video about veganism every now and again, and focus on other political things that you have knowledge in.

Yeah. I recon I wouldn't talk about myself much, however; I'd like to remain anonymous. I certainly won't sit in front of a camera like UV does. Refuting videos of popular channels is probably a good way to get visibility.

RedAppleGP wrote:I could see you as another political channel: You'd make an actually good version of the Amazing Atheist, focusing on things with subtly and intellect (judging by your posts). I actually look forward to your content, if you go through with this.

The Nuanced Atheist has a nice ring to it.
(although, given the fact that religion won't be a major focus, this will not be the name of the channel. Sorry to disappoint.)

RedAppleGP wrote:Just don't be like Vegan Gains.

That seems easy enough; I don't have anything near his muscle mass or misopedia.

miniboes wrote:I think in general the rational vegan pool on youtube is rather shallow; Unnatural Vegan and TVA are great but greatly outnumbered.

We seriously need another rational vegan Youtuber. Unnatural vegan post less videos lately and they are not focused on nutrition as they used to be. I don't blame her (she probably have lot of things going on) but it's a pity.

miniboes wrote:What gaps do you see in the YouTube landscape that I could fill?

Covering reasons to go vegan from different standpoints (meaning heath, compassion, environment) because in my opinion there is no youtube channel which would cover all of them.

miniboes wrote:What are your insights on what kind of videos would be most persuasive to a carnist/dogmatic vegan?

Definitely reasonable and rational ones. Open to criticism, discussion and leaving emotions behind. There are many good channel, but I don't have the patience to go through lots of emotional outbreaks (they make me angry most of the time, for example freelee) in search of little pieces of information I'm searching for.

miniboes wrote: What would you like to see more of?

People are getting less and less used to think on their own so maybe it would be a great thing to make videos that are not preachy, but encourage to question all the false "facts" we are all exposed to from childhood.

Thanks for your input, Minos. These are all things I would strife to accomplish.

miniboes wrote:It's very comparable to TV. On commercial TV, you see that most of the content ends up being shitty reality TV shows or soaps; quick entertainment that gets a lot of ad revenue cheaply. I find it an interesting phenomenon that all the highest quality TV shows in the UK and Netherlands seem to be on the public service broadcasts (e.g. BBC). Perhaps I can get some government to fund me with tax money.

Then what are you waiting for?

miniboes wrote: Yep. There's going to be overlap here, of course. AI, for example, is not just an issue of technology and math, but also an issue of policy and philosophy.

Yes, go on.

miniboes wrote: Thank you, sir.

What would you do without me?

miniboes wrote: Yeah. I recon I wouldn't talk about myself much, however; I'd like to remain anonymous. I certainly won't sit in front of a camera like UV does. Refuting videos of popular channels is probably a good way to get visibility.

Try having a pre-edited video, write a script, then add the script over it. Will you be talking over it?

miniboes wrote: The Nuanced Atheist has a nice ring to it.
(although, given the fact that religion won't be a major focus, this will not be the name of the channel. Sorry to disappoint.)

Oh I don't care about there being no religion. Try Nuanced Vegan?

miniboes wrote: That seems easy enough; I don't have anything near his muscle mass or misopedia.

ok sounds good. just consider vegan gains to be the Amazing Atheist of the vegan community.

A question I'm struggling with is what I should encourage viewers to do in my videos on the reasons to go vegan. I am considering the following options (not mutually exclusive):

#1 Don't encourage them to do anything; simply inform
Pro's
- Might not cause a defensive response in carnists.
- May not anger veg*ns.
Cons
- Might anger carnists anyway because they presume the content to be vegan propaganda.
- May lead to carnists realising that there is a problem with animal agriculture but not having a clear idea of how to act on that information.

#2 Encourage them to support certain policies, such as animal welfare, and the political parties that promote them
Pro's
- Offers an option outside of personal lifestyle change; perhaps less inflamatory.
- Offers an alternative to the Francionian all-or-nothing approach.
Cons
- Political character can lead to reluctance due to party loyalty

#3 Encourage them to consume fewer animal products.
Pro's
- Less inflamatory than telling people to go veg*n
- Offers an alternative to the Franconian all-or-nothing approach.
- Extends to vegetarians, rather than just meat eaters.
Cons
- May lead to a "I don't eat much meat anyway" response.

#4 Encourage them to go vegetarian
Pro's
- Considered less extreme and easier to do than going vegan.
Cons
- May be considered hypocritical due to exclusion of dairy, eggs, leather, wool, etc.

#5 Encourage them to go vegan
Pro's
- If one is persuaded this is the best outcome.
- Extends to vegetarians, rather than just meat eaters.
Cons
- Extreme option; high level of reluctance.
- Association with irrational vegans, such as Franconians.

I am leaning towards a combination of #2 and #3. In my personal life, I have never achieved anything by telling someone it might be a good idea to go veg*n. However, I've persuaded at least ten people to consume fewer animal products. I might convince fewer people to go vegan, but I think it is very plausible that the net animal welfare result would be better.

Thoughts?

I would use a mix. Something like:

Of course I can't tell you to go vegetarian, or even vegan: that's your choice. If you do that's amazing, but if you feel like you can't do that now, try to reduce your animal product consumption. Every little bit makes a difference. Try meatless Mondays. Try to avoid meat for two out of three meals a day on the other days, and when you have meat order or prepare smaller portions -- don't throw away the extra, wasting doesn't help anybody. Keep leftovers, and don't let them go to waste in your fridge, but make reminders to eat them. Even reducing waste makes a difference, particularly with animal products. And don't forget to replace the animal products you reduce your consumption of using healthy plant proteins. Reducing total protein intake will just make you hungry, but plant proteins can be very satisfying. Look to beans and nuts and seeds for healthy plant proteins and fats.