Philosophical Vegan Forum

This is interesting
Did you hear about this ?
http://vegoa.org/en/

Very interesting. Bad site though.

miniboes wrote:Very interesting. Bad site though.

What is it bad about it ? is it poorly done ? Is there something i did not manage to see ?

What an awesome initiative! I think this was discussed about a year ago but I recall that project was in Spain. Is this a separate project or did they decide on Portugal rather than Spain?

I think I will retire here.

Jebus wrote:I think I will retire here.

Same here by the time I retire there I am sure they will be all setup. Maybe I will even just go for vacations.

Unfortunately, these things almost never work.
It's mainly a matter of taking a bunch of city people and bringing them into the country where they're expected to know how to farm, and an issue of economics, but groups like this also break down on a social level, particularly with such diverse populations (forming cliques, and creating hostility, blocking important changes and generally abusing the democratic system).

This could be the one in a million that makes it, but I wouldn't invest in it at this point.

I have become involved with Vegoa over the past month and am part of its first 9-person council. I would encourage anyone interested to have a look at our webpage or our Facebook pages (Vegoa and Vegan Hills). 40 parties (families, couples, or singles) who will be sharing 100 acres hoping to become as self sufficient as possible. The total investment per party is 10500 Euros (10000 each for the land and 500 to cover start-up costs). The 2000 Euro deposit is due in a few days. We still have some availability so let me know if you know anyone who wants to get in.

brimstoneSalad wrote:Unfortunately, these things almost never work.
It's mainly a matter of taking a bunch of city people and bringing them into the country where they're expected to know how to farm, and an issue of economics, but groups like this also break down on a social level, particularly with such diverse populations (forming cliques, and creating hostility, blocking important changes and generally abusing the democratic system).

This could be the one in a million that makes it, but I wouldn't invest in it at this point.

I agree that the agriculture and house construction will be a challenge but I reckon we will catch on eventually. However, I don't think there have really ever been any "groups like these." Usually communities are created for economic, religious or safety reasons. Even though vegans can also be difficult anusholes, I believe the fact that everyone is vegan will be of great advantage compared to other groups who have attempted similar projects. Everyone involved seems really excited; like we are creating something new that will last several generations.

Jebus wrote:40 parties (families, couples, or singles) who will be sharing 100 acres hoping to become as self sufficient as possible.

This is the problem: Unless you are very careful about who you allow in to gain enough knowledge among those 40, the level of self sufficiency will be very low.
Who are these 40 families? Do they all have relevant jobs and skills?
There's a huge amount of knowledge infrastructure required for self sufficiency.

You need professional farmers (make sure everybody is OK with GMO and conventional agriculture so you'll have sustainable yields), you'll need chemists, plumbers, electricians, doctors, people with licenses for construction contracting.
You could outsource architecture, since you'll probably only need to design a couple of buildings, but they'll need ongoing maintenance.
You'll need water and sewage processing, energy infrastructure, etc. All of the fittings for a basic clinic (for anything chronic, people could visit a hospital, but it won't be close if your land is that cheap so you'll have to be fitted to deal with basic emergency operations, and day to day stuff).

Jebus wrote:The total investment per party is 10500 Euros (10000 each for the land and 500 to cover start-up costs). The 2000 Euro deposit is due in a few days. We still have some availability so let me know if you know anyone who wants to get in.

But this will not be enough to make it livable. We're talking about camping at that rate, and dangerous camping without readily available emergency services. This is not safe for families or a full time population.

Have you budgeted for a helicopter? Do you have a pilot?
Also, is this land going to be zoned properly? Can it be legally subdivided? How will you deal with people selling their land? Even if you have a contract that limits ability to do that, that won't necessarily hold up in local courts. How about local law enforcement? Vandals? Predators?

Jebus wrote:I agree that the agriculture and house construction will be a challenge but I reckon we will catch on eventually.

Maybe, but does everybody have enough money to import everything they need in the mean time?
And do you have enough of a budget for the infrastructure you need to make it livable?

Land is cheap, but making it hospitable for Western people who are accustomed to luxuries like hygiene and safety is not.

Jebus wrote:However, I don't think there have really ever been any "groups like these." Usually communities are created for economic, religious or safety reasons.

Whatever the reason, it's an intentional community created by people who have very little in common, and probably lack the money or skills to do it. Look at the hate on youtube between vegans -- "vegan" doesn't mean people will get along, there are many practices and ideologies under that banner.

Jebus wrote:Even though vegans can also be difficult anusholes, I believe the fact that everyone is vegan will be of great advantage compared to other groups who have attempted similar projects.

This has not been my experience in vegan communities, which will very readily tear themselves apart on religious or political lines; or on pseudoscience.
At least do some litmus tests for the community beyond veganism. If the people can agree on respecting scientific consensus (like vaccines and GMO), and agree on a knowledge based meritocratic system, you'll have a good chance of success through competent leadership.

Jebus wrote:Everyone involved seems really excited; like we are creating something new that will last several generations.

It's always exciting at the beginning: I don't in any way doubt the enthusiasm.

It will only last if it can get off the ground, and doesn't end up an abandoned field with a couple half built huts.
There are so many unknowns here, and I'm worried most of those involved probably don't realize how much work is ahead of them.

If it turns out that a significant percentage of the people involved at the beginning can't get along, and the things fractures, what happens?

brimstoneSalad wrote:There's a huge amount of knowledge infrastructure required for self sufficiency.

Self sufficiency is not an immediate absolute. It is something that we strive towards hopefully becoming more and more self sufficient with time.

Most but not all vegoans want to unschool their children. Those who don't want will send their kids to local schools. My brother might join the group and be the local doctor but obviously any advanced medical care would have to be outsourced. There is a small town a few minutes away and a large city within 40 minutes.

brimstoneSalad wrote:this will not be enough to make it livable. We're talking about camping at that rate, and dangerous camping without readily available emergency services. This is not safe for families or a full time population.

Those who don't have a significant amount of savings will have to start a business or work locally.

brimstoneSalad wrote:Have you budgeted for a helicopter? Do you have a pilot?

What do we need that for?

brimstoneSalad wrote:Also, is this land going to be zoned properly? Can it be legally subdivided? How will you deal with people selling their land?

The land is owned by the community. If anyone wants to sell out we have to find someone else to replace them.

brimstoneSalad wrote:How about local law enforcement? Vandals? Predators?

No more or less a problem for us than for others living in the area.

brimstoneSalad wrote:does everybody have enough money to import everything they need in the mean time? And do you have enough of a budget for the infrastructure you need to make it livable?

Don't know. I for one won't move there until I have enough funds to start my intended business. I agree it would be naive to move in with empty pockets.

brimstoneSalad wrote:If it turns out that a significant percentage of the people involved at the beginning can't get along, and the things fractures, what happens?

My guess is that some will leave while others will stay and make the best out of the situation. Two thirds of the community would have to agree before anyone is excluded from the group or if the community wants to sell the land.

Jebus wrote:My brother might join the group and be the local doctor but obviously any advanced medical care would have to be outsourced. There is a small town a few minutes away and a large city within 40 minutes.

That would be great. Once you have a doctor, you've got the basics for public emergency services. There's a lot of investment to make a small doctor's office, though. Half a million maybe? Probably depends on local laws.

40 minutes to the nearest hospital is very far. Or is there a hospital in the town? Ambulance services?

Jebus wrote:

brimstoneSalad wrote:Have you budgeted for a helicopter? Do you have a pilot?

What do we need that for?

Helicopter is for emergencies. Do they have a helicopter they can send from the hospital?
You can probably get one for 100k USD, or a little more.
Time is of the essence in emergencies.

I wouldn't put a child's life in danger by living so far from emergency services without a quick way to the E.R.

Jebus wrote:Self sufficiency is not an immediate absolute. It is something that we strive towards hopefully becoming more and more self sufficient with time.

The trick is then being solvent until that time. I thought I read something about them paying everybody a basic income for doing nothing?
There seemed to be a lot of unsustainable communist language on the site I read before. Doesn't mean it's wrong for a society that can support it, but a start up commune can not.

Jebus wrote:Most but not all vegoans want to unschool their children. Those who don't want will send their kids to local schools.

A school is pretty easy, but you need power, computers, and internet infrastructure to have access to educational material.
A school is just about the simplest form of infrastructure there is, since you just need a roof at the basic and one person who is good with children.

Food prep infrastructure is also pretty easy.

The tough things are power and water, and sewer.

Jebus wrote:Those who don't have a significant amount of savings will have to start a business or work locally.

What's the economy like there? What jobs are available locally? And what kind of business could be run there?

If you have internet infrastructure, tech is a great direction to go since the income is pretty good from that.

Jebus wrote:The land is owned by the community. If anyone wants to sell out we have to find someone else to replace them.

How does that work? What if nobody wants to buy in? How do you get your money out?

And how are you dealing with housing laws and regulations there? Locals, in the case of most communes, have a tendency to block their development and rezoning because they don't want a bunch of "weird" people moving in next to them.

You have to have some charismatic voices in the local community to win over the town council, and even lobby the provincial government.

Jebus wrote: No more or less a problem for us than for others living in the area.

Locals probably have guns and angry dogs, and a long history of dealing with them. This is a big problem in some rural areas.

Local kids may also focus their vandalism more on this commune, since it's out of place and easy to pick on. This is particularly true if the commune participants are bringing in expensive equipment needed for development.
Anything that's not bolted down, chained to a guard dog, and surrounded by a guarded electric fence is bound to be stolen.

Jebus wrote: My guess is that some will leave while others will stay and make the best out of the situation. Two thirds of the community would have to agree before anyone is excluded from the group or if the community wants to sell the land.

What happens to the people who want to leave if nobody who is acceptable to the community wants to buy their stakes?