Philosophical Vegan Forum

Have you ever met a "vegan" who just absolutely annoyed you? My number 1 pet peeve is hypocrisy. Ive met a few "vegans" in my life who after inquiring about their veganism informed me that they cheat occasionally, and they are not one of those "militant" vegans, and they don't mind if other people eat animals. I understand that some people go vegan for environmental and health reasons, but I just find it unnerving dealing with people who 1) misrepresent veganism (i.e. diet fad) 2) dismiss actual vegans who work to educate others and end the insanity otherwise known as animal agriculture.

Sorry, needed to vent. Anyone else?

I don't know.

I appreciate that they very rarely eat meat, but at the same time, they really don't last long- they usually give up veganism after a few months.

The only long term vegans I have known have been pretty strict about meat (although some less so about minor additives).

It doesn't bother me when people don't read ingredients, and might miss something common but minuscule (it also doesn't affect animal well-being much, to have trace components, and I think obsession can be more harmful than a casual approach as PETA has articulated). But chowing down on pork now and then definitely misrepresents veganism.

brimstoneSalad wrote:I don't know.

I appreciate that they very rarely eat meat, but at the same time, they really don't last long- they usually give up veganism after a few months.

The only long term vegans I have known have been pretty strict about meat (although some less so about minor additives).

It doesn't bother me when people don't read ingredients, and might miss something common but minuscule (it also doesn't affect animal well-being much, to have trace components, and I think obsession can be more harmful than a casual approach as PETA has articulated). But chowing down on pork now and then definitely misrepresents veganism.

im not referring to people who don't carefully look at labels. I had a conversation with a self proclaimed "vegan" who admitted to eating cheese or dairy at parties as to not make the hosts feel uncomfortable.

TheVeganAtheist wrote:im not referring to people who don't carefully look at labels. I had a conversation with a self proclaimed "vegan" who admitted to eating cheese or dairy at parties as to not make the hosts feel uncomfortable.

I had a similar experience. I had a friend that was 'vegetarian', but she was eating meat when with her friends.
For someone the opinion that society could have of them really is overpowering; I think neuroscience explains it well enough.

TheVeganAtheist wrote:I had a conversation with a self proclaimed "vegan" who admitted to eating cheese or dairy at parties as to not make the hosts feel uncomfortable.

I'm not very judgmental about things like that, provided they aren't making excuses for it, but recognize that it's not right and feel bad about it- usually when I encounter situations like that, they're asking how to handle it so they won't feel pressured into it.

Some people jump at the chance to have an excuse to "cheat", and that's another matter.

A couple of weeks ago a neighbor stopped by to bring us something she owed us, and she also brought us a half dozen banana muffins she had just baked. During our conversation I mentioned that my husband and I had recently become vegans, and she said, "Uh-oh. We're vegetarian but not vegan. I used butter in these muffins." I told her not to worry, that we could make small exceptions in a case like this, and that I was sure we'd enjoy what she had baked. And we did. The muffins were delicious.

So far, in almost 4 months, this is the only time we've knowingly violated our vegan commitment.

Here are the options we had, as I see them:

A. Not say anything about our new veganism, accept the gift graciously, and either dispose of the muffins or give them away.
B. Explain that we're now vegans and therefore can't accept the muffins, but thank her for her thoughtfulness and ask that she find a better home for them.
C. Do what we did.

Did we do the right thing? Was C the best choice? What would you have done?

cufflink wrote:A couple of weeks ago a neighbor stopped by to bring us something she owed us, and she also brought us a half dozen banana muffins she had just baked. During our conversation I mentioned that my husband and I had recently become vegans, and she said, "Uh-oh. We're vegetarian but not vegan. I used butter in these muffins." I told her not to worry, that we could make small exceptions in a case like this, and that I was sure we'd enjoy what she had baked. And we did. The muffins were delicious.

So far, in almost 4 months, this is the only time we've knowingly violated our vegan commitment.

Here are the options we had, as I see them:

A. Not say anything about our new veganism, accept the gift graciously, and either dispose of the muffins or give them away.
B. Explain that we're now vegans and therefore can't accept the muffins, but thank her for her thoughtfulness and ask that she find a better home for them.
C. Do what we did.

Did we do the right thing? Was C the best choice? What would you have done?

Question: What would you have done if the muffins had meat in it? From my experience of people's reaction, they are much less willing to eat meat then they are willing to eat dairy or eggs. Meat seems to be worse than dairy and eggs.
If I knew that she coming over, I would have informed her in advance that we are vegans and that if she brought anything to make sure it was vegan, or suggest that you would prepare something instead. If her visit was unexpected, then I would greatly appreciate the thought of bringing something, and ensure that you are sure its delicious, but suggest that she can perhaps give it to another neighbour that would eat them.

If you were a muslim given some bacοn, would you think they would make an exception? Would you make an exception if she brought meat burgers over?

TheVeganAtheist wrote:

cufflink wrote:A couple of weeks ago a neighbor stopped by to bring us something she owed us, and she also brought us a half dozen banana muffins she had just baked. During our conversation I mentioned that my husband and I had recently become vegans, and she said, "Uh-oh. We're vegetarian but not vegan. I used butter in these muffins." I told her not to worry, that we could make small exceptions in a case like this, and that I was sure we'd enjoy what she had baked. And we did. The muffins were delicious.

So far, in almost 4 months, this is the only time we've knowingly violated our vegan commitment.

Here are the options we had, as I see them:

A. Not say anything about our new veganism, accept the gift graciously, and either dispose of the muffins or give them away.
B. Explain that we're now vegans and therefore can't accept the muffins, but thank her for her thoughtfulness and ask that she find a better home for them.
C. Do what we did.

Did we do the right thing? Was C the best choice? What would you have done?

Question: What would you have done if the muffins had meat in it? From my experience of people's reaction, they are much less willing to eat meat then they are willing to eat dairy or eggs. Meat seems to be worse than dairy and eggs.
If I knew that she coming over, I would have informed her in advance that we are vegans and that if she brought anything to make sure it was vegan, or suggest that you would prepare something instead. If her visit was unexpected, then I would greatly appreciate the thought of bringing something, and ensure that you are sure its delicious, but suggest that she can perhaps give it to another neighbour that would eat them.

If you were a muslim given some *penis*, would you think they would make an exception? Would you make an exception if she brought meat burgers over?

Her visit was unexpected, as was the gift. And you're right--if it had been a dish that contained meat, I wouldn't have eaten it. I admit that on a gut level, dairy and eggs do seem to be different, but I won't try to defend that rationally.

It was a question of the lesser of two evils. I could have politely refused the muffins, but I think that would have made the neighbor feel bad. (Maybe I'm projecting what I think my own feelings would be if I were on the other side.) Here she bakes up something nice as a gift, walks down the hill with them to our door, and is told, "Sorry, can't accept 'em, take 'em back." I didn't want to hurt her in that way, especially since she's a lovely person and I care about her feelings. As it was, I had a chance to talk to her about veganism, tell her we were doing well with it, and mention some local vegan restaurants I thought she would enjoy.

If it were a question of being invited to someone's home for dinner, that would be a totally different story. In that case I'd let the hosts know beforehand that we're vegans so they could be forewarned (and possibly withdraw the invitation), and I wouldn't compromise.

I don't think the religious analogy is apt. For dietary restrictions based on religion, there can be no compromise. God says don't eat it, so you can't, period/full stop. I don't see veganism the same way. It's not an end in itself, it's a means to an end: no more animal killing and suffering, a better environment, and for some, better health. Eating the muffins the neighbor already made didn't contribute to any additional cruelty to animals or damage to the environment, and I doubt the small amount of butter we ingested hurt our health.

That's where my thinking is right now, but I'm willing and eager to hear other perspectives.

As an aside, this event gave me a strong sense of déja vu. Something similar happened when I was a kid, not related to veganism but to religion.

When I was 6, our family moved from an apartment in a heavily Jewish area to a house in a neighborhood where Jews were relatively rare. My parents were observant Jews who "kept kosher." Soon after we moved in, our next-door neighbor, a Catholic, brought over a welcome gift: a big tray of homemade lasagna. This dish severely violated Jewish dietary laws: it not only contained non-Kosher meat but it mixed meat and dairy. My parents didn't know what to do. Not wanting to get off on the wrong foot with our new closest neighbors (and also, I think, not wanting to stand out even further as "those clannish Jews" in an environment they perceived as hostile), they accepted the lasagna without saying anything, then threw it away, and returned the empty tray. That, to me, was clearly a mistake. They gave the neighbor the idea that they didn't have a problem eating non-Kosher food, which would have repercussions if we were ever invited over to the neighbor's house for dinner. So the can was kicked down the road.

It was a question of the lesser of two evils. I could have politely refused the muffins, but I think that would have made the neighbor feel bad. (Maybe I'm projecting what I think my own feelings would be if I were on the other side.) Here she bakes up something nice as a gift, walks down the hill with them to our door, and is told, "Sorry, can't accept 'em, take 'em back." I didn't want to hurt her in that way, especially since she's a lovely person and I care about her feelings.

as you have already stated though, had it been meat, you would have chosen to potentially hurt her feelings and reject the food item. Thats not consistent. Why would it be okay to politely decline the meat, but not the dairy/eggs? Id sooner eat the meat then eat dairy as I believe that the added suffering dairy cows goes through makes their products more immoral then animals just raised for their meat. I don't like comparing the two, because I don't make a decision based on amount of suffering, but I think its not rational to be okay with bending your moral stance on dairy but not on meat.

There are ways of politely rejecting food items without being a jerk either.

As it was, I had a chance to talk to her about veganism, tell her we were doing well with it, and mention some local vegan restaurants I thought she would enjoy.

Thats great, however, walking away this neighbour of yours now believes that vegans sometimes don't take seriously their beliefs, and that adding in a little bit of butter or dairy or eggs into a dish is okay. I think that our actions speak louder then our words. If you seriously oppose something, say racism, and you are speaking to a racist, you won't make them see your perspective if you start to use racial slurs and insults. Consistency between actions and message is key, otherwise people will dismiss your message. If they see you consuming something you object to, it sends a message that: you are being hypocritical, and that if even a vegan can't remain consistent, then what hope does a meat eater?

I think the perception that meat is somehow worse then dairy and eggs (which are bad, but not THAT bad) is faulty reasoning. We seem to think of dairy and eggs as not being associated with death, yet it very much is.

TheVeganAtheist wrote:as you have already stated though, had it been meat, you would have chosen to potentially hurt her feelings and reject the food item. Thats not consistent. Why would it be okay to politely decline the meat, but not the dairy/eggs? Id sooner eat the meat then eat dairy as I believe that the added suffering dairy cows goes through makes their products more immoral then animals just raised for their meat. I don't like comparing the two, because I don't make a decision based on amount of suffering, but I think its not rational to be okay with bending your moral stance on dairy but not on meat.

I don't have a strong rational defense for feeling somewhat less guilty about eating dairy than about eating meat. I guess it's because meat inherently involves killing; dairy doesn't necessarily involve killing, although I'm aware that the way the dairy industry works, killing is part of the process.

Thats great, however, walking away this neighbour of yours now believes that vegans sometimes don't take seriously their beliefs, and that adding in a little bit of butter or dairy or eggs into a dish is okay.

I don't think so. I made it clear to the neighbor that I was making an exception in her case, and she understood that. I doubt she'll think I'm willing to eat non-vegan food she's prepared in the future.

I think that our actions speak louder then our words.

I agree.

Consistency between actions and message is key, otherwise people will dismiss your message. If they see you consuming something you object to, it sends a message that: you are being hypocritical, and that if even a vegan can't remain consistent, then what hope does a meat eater?

I'm all for consistency. But it seems like a false dichotomy to imply there are only two possibilities: either your actions are 100% consistent with your beliefs at all times, with no exceptions whatsoever, or you're a hypocrite. Isn't a hypocrite someone whose actions consistently depart from his/her stated beliefs? If A's actions are inconsistent 80% of the time, and B's are inconsistent 0.01% of the time, are they both hypocrites?

It's a cliché, but it seems relevant here: Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. What's better for the world: for there to be 100 99.9%-vegans, or 10 100%-vegans?

Along these lines, what's the feeling on this board about Peter Singer and his "Paris exemption"? And do most people here lean towards protectionism or abolitionism?