Philosophical Vegan Forum

Hello,

This is a long post, so huge thanks to whoever has the patience to read it all and address my concerns.

I'm 250lb, 6'4" and in my late 20s. I'm a big fat guy. I carry it fairly well but I'm still visibly very fat. My wife (with whom I share meals - we both like to cook) is not overweight. She eats quite small portions - something I have never been able to manage. In the past I've flirted with the idea of weight loss, but being married and in a secure job has put my life into coasting mode for a while.

Now, the way I eat is, I'm not about snacking. In fact, I almost never snack. What I do is big meals, three times a day, every day, like clockwork. I grew up in Europe, and live in Asia now, so my diet has always been quite varied and this influences how I cook. And in a vain attempt to be healthy (and also because I like 'em) I've always included some form of veggies in my meals (though it's pretty much always been a mountain of carbs and protein that dominate the plate). This was me for literally years, and I thought nothing of it. Probably my favourite meals are curries (Indian, Chinese, Japanese...) tomato-based pasta dishes and "meat and two veg" Northern European staple meals.

About six weeks ago I was feeling especially bloated and disgusting, and was probably the heaviest I've been in a few years. It was a Saturday evening and I was at a Japanese restaurant with my wife, looking through the menu even though I'd already pre-decided that I was going to order the pork cutlet curry with spinach and fried chicken, when I recalled something I'd read or heard along the lines of "make sure most of your calories come from vegetables and you'll lose weight". I've never actually been a veggie dodger, and I have always included veggies on my plate, but it had never occurred to me before then to even consider eating a meal where vegetables were the centrepiece.

The combination of feeling really fat and disgusting, and also wanting to try the egg-plant (but feeling like it would be ridiculous to have three toppings) made me choose to just order the egg-plant curry with spinach. No meat at all.

The thing that makes this meal stick in my mind though is how I felt after eating. I don't mean like a sense of achievement or pride, I mean how I physically felt. That it was the first afternoon meal I'd had in living memory where at the end I didn't feel bloated and tired. Where I didn't feel like I wanted to just sit down and not get up. I had always figured "if you eat a meal, you feel sleepy and bloated at the end". For some reason it had programmed itself into my mind as a logical event chain. This was my normal. It was what I thought being full and satiated was.

Yet after this (by no means "healthy" in the sense of low-fat or low-calorie) meal of steamed white rice; gloopy, spicy roux-based Japanese curry; fried eggplant and blanched spinach, I felt satisfied and yet I was filled with energy. I wasn't tired at all. I felt full yet not at all bloated.

This may have slipped by me without notice, but for the fact that not including meat was a conscious decision made out of some vague effort to be "healthy". I had to conclude that it must have been the food that made me feel this way. More specifically, the meat that I didn't eat. It had to be. I felt great, and it was probably because I didn't have a few hundred grams of fried pork or chicken in my stomach.

Now, I'm a curious guy and I had to see if this was a one-off or what. I spent my Sunday buying vegetables, chopping and peeling, and making my lunch for work the next day. I stopped eating sausages and bacon for breakfast, and instead opted for stir fried veggies, eggs or oats and honey. A few days into not eating meat, I was feeling great. I wasn't sleepy all the time any more. A week into it, I had more energy than I knew what to do with and I took up swimming (4-5 times per week, up to and including this week).

I did "slip" by the first weekend though, and found myself eating a big meaty meal. This slip has formed a pattern that I'm still stuck in, where I have 6 days of meatlessness and a Sunday where I "let myself" eat meat. (Though with each succeeding week, the meat has become proportionally less significant, as I throw a ton of veggies into the mix) and of course I still feel the effect of eating meat (it's similar to a mild immediate hangover).

But aside from my Sunday meat allowance I've literally never felt better. I'm also losing weight steadily, accelerated by my recently taking up swimming (in part to do something with my mountains of extra energy - turns out I really enjoy it), but I would like to overcome this last hurdle and somehow drop meat completely, as I am really pleased with my weight loss progress and I like feeling good all the time. I am just a little sick of recycling the same ideas over and over for food. I've mostly been recreating meat meals I liked to cook but without the meat. I also took up eating stir-fried vegetables. I'm a sucker for spicy food, and I put fresh chilli and garlic into most things I cook.

As for the the other two items in the vegan food anti-trinity, I'm lactose intolerant so I haven't had milk in my diet for years and am not about to start, but I still eat eggs as I figure they're a useful source of protein. Speaking of protein, I'm also eating beans and unsalted peanuts. Overall, I've had a more Asian, less European-style diet since I gave up meat.

I am cooking most of the meals I eat for a variety of reasons - prime amongst which is cost, but also it's quite difficult to "eat out" vegetarian (let alone vegan) here. I think I need more inspiration on how to use the ingredients I'm comfortable preparing and enjoy eating. I am leaning quite heavily on carrots and spinach recently, and I'm growing a little bored of them. I don't have a particularly diverse range of ingredients that I'm comfortable cooking with yet.

The following is practically my whole working larder, alongside a rough estimate of how many/much I consume in a week:

Fresh veg:
- Carrots (6+)
- Eggplant (2-3)
- Spinach (1-1.5KG)
- Tomatoes (800-1200g)
- Potatoes (500g)
- Sweet Potato - Yellow (500g)
- Bean sprouts (200g)
- Onions (5+ medium-sized)
- Garlic (half a bulb)
- Fresh chillies (200g)
- Bell pepper (1)

Fruit:
- Banana (3)
- Mango (2)

Canned/Dried:
- Chick peas (2x 450g cans)
- Kidney beans (1 can)
- Haricot beans (1 can)
- Tomatoes (1x 800g can)
- Peanuts (300g)

Carbs:
- Rice/Pasta - A lot (but less, proportionally, than I used to)
- Bread - Half a loaf

Other:
- Eggs (10)
- Coconut milk (if my wife cooks certain things)

I might be missing a few things, but 99% of what I cook is made with the above, along with a miscellaneous amount of scallion, fresh/dried herbs and spices to make everything taste good - plus meat on Sundays. I mostly shallow fry with olive oil, and I am not concerned about my salt intake.

My main goal is to maintain my "diet" as a self-sustaining lifestyle shift, drop meat completely and maybe phase out eggs for the same kind of health reasons. I feel to do this, I'd need to diversify my meal options.

I'd love to hear some helpful advice from anyone with the patience to make it through my long-ass post.

Great post, and I got through all of it.

Overall it looks pretty good (better than I've seen on average).

Fruit:
Your fruit consumption (amount) looks good. Fruit is more of a dessert, and it's good that you're treating it like that with one fruit a day.
Many vegans make the mistake of eating too much fruit, which is not very nutritious (it has some vitamin C in it, but so do veggies, and one fruit is usually enough -- more will just be extra calories).

So, your fruit consumption looks good in terms of amount.
I would suggest that you try to find more berries, and eat a couple of hand fulls of those rather than bananas because berries are healthier fruits (more antioxidants). I know those are harder to find in Asia though. This is more of a type of fruit rather than an amount issue.

Protein:
To start, I would double or triple the beans.
Have you ever tried tempeh, or tofu? Those can be good ways to increase bean product consumption, but with more variety.

Beans have to be increased slowly, or they can contribute to gas (your intestinal microbes adjust over time).

Tempeh, however, because it is fermented already is basically not gas forming (the tempeh culture already ate all of the indigestible sugars that cause gas). In Asia (depending where) that may be a good option.
I used to make my own, which is a learning process, but not very hard.

In terms of whole beans, you can buy them dry and soak them to save money vs. canned. Or if you aren't concerned with cost, canned is fine.
I'd suggest learning to make bean dips to diversify your bean consumption. Dips are excellent with carrots, and you can spice up the dip nicely with garlic, etc.

Carbs:
Try to switch to darker colors, like black rice, and buckwheat pasta. Choose whole grains where you can. Try to avoid/reduce white rice.
Potatoes are carbs, but you aren't eating a lot of those, so they look OK. But where you can, choose the smaller darker ones, like red, purple, etc. Ones with more color inside have more nutrition.

Veggies:
Most of this looks fine, but you may want to switch your primary green, and try to eat more of it.

Spinach is OK, but it contains a lot of oxalic acid, so it's hard to absorb some of the nutrients from it.
If you can, experiment with mustard greens, collard greens, kale, or rape (canola) greens if those are sold where you are.
Basically, things in the Brassica family that are darker in color.
Try to eat at least 500 g a day.

You may also want to eat purple cabbage, if you can find it. That's a big antioxidant dose, from all of the purple pigments.

Fats:
Walnuts are pretty excellent; you can enjoy a hand full or two of those a day. I would try to replace peanuts with walnuts, since walnuts are better for you.
Try to avoid or minimize coconut milk, since it is saturated fat. Instead, if you can find canola oil (low erucic acid rapeseed oil) that's a better choice for a cooking oil.

others
As you said, you're working on reducing eggs, and I think once you are eating more beans you will be getting plenty of protein and won't need the eggs, so that should be easy.
You will need to take some vitamin B-12. That is produced by bacteria, and is rare in plants. It's easy to find, though, at any pharmacy. Aim to take 1,000 mcg twice a week.

That is a great post! It is a wonderful thing that you are choosing to loose weight the healthy way.
I think you should try to up your fruit intake if you can, fruits have good sugar, and eating lots of fruit is healthy. It will prevent you from craving more fatty foods. So when your craving, grab an apple, it got me off of vegan ice cream.... ha ha
I see you said you are maybe going to phase out eggs. I highly recommend getting rid of eggs, because eggs are not a "health food" in any way! Eggs have shown to cause many effects on peoples health, and don't even get me started on the cruelty aspect of eggs.
I suggest you also take some time to research about veganism, you will discover all the health benefits about going vegan, many witch you have already experienced short term with just cutting out meat. It's also important to learn about animal agriculture, and really get full knowledge on what you were eating came from, and you will never want to eat it again.
Watch some documentaries: Cowspiracy, Forks over knives, Vegucated, Earthlings, and Fat sick and nearly dead.
Read some books: The china study, and The starch solution

It's awesome that you are changing your diet for the better!
Best of luck to you, and Go Vegan!

bearbear287 wrote: I think you should try to up your fruit intake if you can, fruits have good sugar, and eating lots of fruit is healthy.

There's not really such a thing as "good sugar" or "bad sugar". Sugar is just generally bad, it rots your teeth and reduces the nutrient density for food. That's not to say "don't eat any sugar"; it's fine in moderation, as a snack or dessert, but fruit should not be looked at as a nutritious food.
Doug Graham is the worst of the nutrition quacks on the internet.

Unfortunately, McDougall is not a very good source for health information either. The Starch Solution contains a lot of pseudoscience.
McDougall basically claims that because our ancestors subsisted on largely starch based diets, that this is the healthiest diet. This is false reasoning; the logical fallacy of an appeal to nature, or tradition.
Today, we have access to more healthy foods year round, and the means to eat more vegetables (the healthiest food) than ever before. We can eat healthier foods than our ancestors, and outlive them in the process.

bearbear287 wrote:It will prevent you from craving more fatty foods. So when your craving, grab an apple, it got me off of vegan ice cream.... ha ha

This is a better way to use fruit. When you're craving sweets, eating fruit instead may satisfy the craving with a healthier alternative.
Sweet fruits (particularly junk fruit like apples or bananas) are not very nutritious foods, but they are the lesser of evils compared to candy or icecream.

Berries, on the other hand, are pretty healthy. They provide more nutrients, have lower sugar, loads of antioxidants.
I can recommend eating a couple hand fulls of berries a day, but try to steer clear of the junk food fruits with high sugar and low nutrition like apples, bananas, pears, oranges, pineapple.

Dr. Greger has a few videos on fruit, and which are the best.

http://nutritionfacts.org/video/best-berries/

You can see by those comparisons that not all plant foods are equal, and some plant foods -- while certainly not as junk food as McDonald's -- are essentially junk foods of the plant world, and we should avoid them and choose better alternatives.

bearbear287 wrote: Read some books: The china study, and The starch solution

I would avoid those, since as mentioned, these starch based authors offer a lot of pseudoscience.

Dr. Fuhrman is a better influence in terms of mainstream health advice. He recommends maximizing nutrients (particularly micronutrients) per calorie, which is a very common sense approach to good health. Lots of greens, beans, some nuts and berries.

You basically want to do the polar opposite (in terms of vegan diets) from the "starch solution" advice. Although eating some whole grain starches (in moderation) is fine.

In terms of books (if you want to read expert advice directly), I would recommend Vegan for Life, by Jack Norris and Ginny Messina:
http://www.amazon.com/Vegan-Life-Everyt ... 0738214930

@brimstoneSalad thank you for your excellent suggestions, there is a lot for me to go on here

brimstoneSalad wrote:Fruit:
Your fruit consumption (amount) looks good. Fruit is more of a dessert, and it's good that you're treating it like that with one fruit a day.
Many vegans make the mistake of eating too much fruit, which is not very nutritious (it has some vitamin C in it, but so do veggies, and one fruit is usually enough -- more will just be extra calories).

So, your fruit consumption looks good in terms of amount.
I would suggest that you try to find more berries, and eat a couple of hand fulls of those rather than bananas because berries are healthier fruits (more antioxidants). I know those are harder to find in Asia though. This is more of a type of fruit rather than an amount issue.

Thanks for the pointers. Berries are quite easy to come across, but expensive here. My favourite fruits are mango and mangosteen, and they strike me as likely "junk fruits" too; I'll have to check out that link you gave about "good" fruits.

brimstoneSalad wrote:Fruit:
Protein:
To start, I would double or triple the beans.
Have you ever tried tempeh, or tofu? Those can be good ways to increase bean product consumption, but with more variety.

OK, I will. And I love tempeh (though I've only ever had it fried, or cooked in a coconut-milk-based sauce. I've never liked fried tofu, and I am indifferent to boiled tofu - but I will try out some recipes.

brimstoneSalad wrote:Carbs:
Try to switch to darker colors, like black rice, and buckwheat pasta. Choose whole grains where you can. Try to avoid/reduce white rice.
Potatoes are carbs, but you aren't eating a lot of those, so they look OK. But where you can, choose the smaller darker ones, like red, purple, etc. Ones with more color inside have more nutrition.

Will do. I quite like red/black rice, and buckwheat noodles are great so I'm sure I'll like buckwheat pasta.

brimstoneSalad wrote:Veggies:
Most of this looks fine, but you may want to switch your primary green, and try to eat more of it.

Spinach is OK, but it contains a lot of oxalic acid, so it's hard to absorb some of the nutrients from it.
If you can, experiment with mustard greens, collard greens, kale, or rape (canola) greens if those are sold where you are.
Basically, things in the Brassica family that are darker in color.
Try to eat at least 500 g a day.

You may also want to eat purple cabbage, if you can find it. That's a big antioxidant dose, from all of the purple pigments.

Non-local greens (e.g. kale) tend to be quite expensive here, and only really available in ex-pat supermarkets. I eat a lot of water spinach (I included that with my spinach total) but I will try to expand my greens selection, though being raised on bland boiled vegetables has left me... less than enthusiastic for broccoli and its cousins.

But 500g a day? Really? That seems like a lot. Is that to keep my carb intake down?

brimstoneSalad wrote:Fats:
Walnuts are pretty excellent; you can enjoy a hand full or two of those a day. I would try to replace peanuts with walnuts, since walnuts are better for you.
Try to avoid or minimize coconut milk, since it is saturated fat. Instead, if you can find canola oil (low erucic acid rapeseed oil) that's a better choice for a cooking oil.

I went with peanuts because they're the only nut I like to eat with the skin on (I dry toast them, and sometimes throw half a handful into some water spinach). But I will try to diversify my nuts. I take it cashew, pistachio and macadamia are just as bad as peanuts?

brimstoneSalad wrote:others
As you said, you're working on reducing eggs, and I think once you are eating more beans you will be getting plenty of protein and won't need the eggs, so that should be easy.
You will need to take some vitamin B-12. That is produced by bacteria, and is rare in plants. It's easy to find, though, at any pharmacy. Aim to take 1,000 mcg twice a week.

I'll pick up a B-12 supplement tomorrow when I'm out.

Thanks for the great advice.

bearbear287 wrote:I see you said you are maybe going to phase out eggs. I highly recommend getting rid of eggs, because eggs are not a "health food" in any way! Eggs have shown to cause many effects on peoples health, and don't even get me started on the cruelty aspect of eggs.

Oh, I definitely plan to. I'm actually becoming more aware of how small changes in food affect my disposition, and the more I look into eggs, the less I like.

bearbear287 wrote:I suggest you also take some time to research about veganism, you will discover all the health benefits about going vegan, many witch you have already experienced short term with just cutting out meat. It's also important to learn about animal agriculture, and really get full knowledge on what you were eating came from, and you will never want to eat it again.

Well, even though I'm in it for health-reasons, not moral ones, I'm with you at least on the practical side. And who knows, maybe lowering my (unintended) intake of pig faeces and cow hormones will have a hugely positive health impact as well as having a side-benefit of personally contributing to less nett suffering.

bearbear287 wrote:It's awesome that you are changing your diet for the better!
Best of luck to you, and Go Vegan!

Thanks for the encouragement

Tentative wrote:Thanks for the pointers. Berries are quite easy to come across, but expensive here. My favourite fruits are mango and mangosteen, and they strike me as likely "junk fruits" too; I'll have to check out that link you gave about "good" fruits.

Aha. Well, mangoes are four times as good as bananas, so I'd stick to those, and then eat berries if you come across them cheaper.

Tentative wrote: OK, I will. And I love tempeh (though I've only ever had it fried, or cooked in a coconut-milk-based sauce. I've never liked fried tofu, and I am indifferent to boiled tofu - but I will try out some recipes.

Great! Tempeh is probably better than tofu anyway, since it contains more fiber, so if you already like that, that's a very good option.

You can prepare it with less oil by just sauteing it instead of deep frying it. OR if you have a toaster/oven, that's a very good option for a lower fat toasted tempeh.

Tentative wrote: Will do. I quite like red/black rice, and buckwheat noodles are great so I'm sure I'll like buckwheat pasta.

Oops, sorry, I should have said "noodles" and not "pasta". Yes, buckwheat noodles are great, if you have them there I'd go for that predominately.
And aside from that, maybe a mix of black and red rice.
Then purple potatoes if you can find those.

Tentative wrote: Non-local greens (e.g. kale) tend to be quite expensive here, and only really available in ex-pat supermarkets.

Well, the main thing is getting something dark and leafy in the brassica family.
If it's brassica, you will usually see clusters of small white or yellow flowers on the mature leaves, which should have four rounded petals.
The reason I suggest these is because they're high in nutrients (so you don't need to eat as much weight) and they have lower levels of oxalic acid.

Allium, or the onion family, is also good if you like green onion, or garlic scapes.

Tentative wrote:I eat a lot of water spinach (I included that with my spinach total) but I will try to expand my greens selection, though being raised on bland boiled vegetables has left me... less than enthusiastic for broccoli and its cousins.

The main thing you want to avoid in greens is too much oxalic acid. Unfortunately, I can't find reliable data on water spinach and the amount of oxalic acid in it... so, I'm not sure.

There are a number of lists online for oxalate content in foods, and greens. They're not 100% reliable, but most aren't going to be too far off:

http://lowoxalateinfo.com/guide-to-low-oxalate-greens/

Low Oxalate Greens:
Mustard Greens (boiled)
Cabbage (nappa, purple, green, savoy)
Bok Choy
Turnip Greens (boiled)
Dino/Lacinato/Tuscan Kale (boiled)
Lettuce (Cornsalad, Iceberg, Bibb)
Lettuce (Romaine, Butter, Boston)*
Broccoli Rabe/Rapini
Collard Greens
Creasy/American Cress (boiled)
Pea Greens
Arugula*
Alfalfa Sprouts
Water Cress (raw or boiled)
Kohlrabi*
Broccoli (raw or boiled)

Medium Oxalate Greens:
Collard Greens (boiled or steamed)
Belgian Endive or Chicory
Grape Leaves
Broccoli Rabe/Rapini(steamed)
Dandelion Greens (raw or boiled)
Mustard Greens (steamed)
Turnip Greens (steamed)
Curly Kale
Green onions (green part)
Shallots
Broccoli (steamed)
Fennel (raw or boiled)
Brussel Sprouts (steamed or boiled)

Oxalic acid binds to nutrients and makes them hard to absorb, and also causes stones. So, it's good to keep them low when you're eating veggies hard core.
If you eat fewer veggies, it doesn't matter as much.

Tentative wrote:But 500g a day? Really? That seems like a lot. Is that to keep my carb intake down?

It's for bulk, and for vitamins and minerals. Veggies are the healthiest things in the world to eat, due to the high micronutrient content.

Up to 2 kg a day is even better, but that's pretty hard core.
Most people can't do that (and that's OK).

Tentative wrote:But I will try to diversify my nuts. I take it cashew, pistachio and macadamia are just as bad as peanuts?

Cashews aren't very good, neither are pistachios or macadamia. These all have more than 10% saturated fat.
Check the saturated fat content of nuts by searching the nut in google plus "nutrition info".

Polyunsaturated fat is good. Monounsaturated fat is neutral. Saturated fat is bad.

Walnuts, almonds, and sunflower seeds, by contrast, all have well under 10% saturated fat.
There's no magic number, but try to eat nuts with less saturated.

It's also good to choose nuts with higher omega 3 content, which makes Walnuts a winner in both categories.

brimstoneSalad wrote:There are a number of lists online for oxalate content in foods, and greens. They're not 100% reliable, but most aren't going to be too far off:

http://lowoxalateinfo.com/guide-to-low-oxalate-greens/

Low Oxalate Greens:
Mustard Greens (boiled)
Cabbage (nappa, purple, green, savoy)
Bok Choy
Turnip Greens (boiled)
Dino/Lacinato/Tuscan Kale (boiled)
Lettuce (Cornsalad, Iceberg, Bibb)
Lettuce (Romaine, Butter, Boston)*
Broccoli Rabe/Rapini
Collard Greens
Creasy/American Cress (boiled)
Pea Greens
Arugula*
Alfalfa Sprouts
Water Cress (raw or boiled)
Kohlrabi*
Broccoli (raw or boiled)

Medium Oxalate Greens:
Collard Greens (boiled or steamed)
Belgian Endive or Chicory
Grape Leaves
Broccoli Rabe/Rapini(steamed)
Dandelion Greens (raw or boiled)
Mustard Greens (steamed)
Turnip Greens (steamed)
Curly Kale
Green onions (green part)
Shallots
Broccoli (steamed)
Fennel (raw or boiled)
Brussel Sprouts (steamed or boiled)

Thanks for the advice, especially on veggies.

I'm trying to diversify my greens, but not a whole lot are available here at reasonable prices. (For example, 200g of kale - probably the most exotic green on your list that I can even get - is around $7)

I can get a few kinds of spinach, tons of different kinds of white cabbage including bok choy which I'm trying to eat a lot of (red and green cabbage are 3-5 times the price) and lettuces. That's about it, so the list of exotic greens is a little out of reach for the moment.

By the way, I see a few lettuces listed, I was under the impression that lettuce was devoid of nutritional content. Was I mistaken? And do white beansprouts count as "greens"? What about green beans?

I have never been interested in mushrooms but I was recently on vacation in Japan and (while I was sticking to the vegetarian/vegan food) found myself ordering "vegetable tempura" and enjoying the mushroom tempura that were inevitably included, so I think I'll open my world a little more to mushrooms.

Tentative wrote: I'm trying to diversify my greens, but not a whole lot are available here at reasonable prices. (For example, 200g of kale - probably the most exotic green on your list that I can even get - is around $7)

That doesn't sound worth the price, you're right.

Are there no mustard greens? Those are better than kale.

Tentative wrote: I can get a few kinds of spinach, tons of different kinds of white cabbage including bok choy which I'm trying to eat a lot of (red and green cabbage are 3-5 times the price) and lettuces.

Red cabbage may be worth the high price, since it's loaded with antioxidants.

Tentative wrote: By the way, I see a few lettuces listed, I was under the impression that lettuce was devoid of nutritional content. Was I mistaken? And do white beansprouts count as "greens"? What about green beans?

Lettuce is pretty low in nutrition; you have to eat a huge amount to get anything (it's mostly water), though the same applies to a degree to bok choy as well (although maybe a bit better than lettuce).

Here's a good video on comparative health of veggies:

http://nutritionfacts.org/video/1-anticancer-vegetable/
(this just about cancer prevention, not about overall nutrition)


See if you can brush up on some botany, and identify brassica veggies in the market:

http://www.wildflowers-and-weeds.com/Pl ... caceae.htm

They may not be by any name we can recognize, but they're usually pretty easy to ID when you know the signs.

Tentative wrote: I have never been interested in mushrooms but I was recently on vacation in Japan and (while I was sticking to the vegetarian/vegan food) found myself ordering "vegetable tempura" and enjoying the mushroom tempura that were inevitably included, so I think I'll open my world a little more to mushrooms.

That's great! Are they pretty cheap there?