Philosophical Vegan Forum

So as some of you might know.. Arrogant. Actually only 3 on this forum knows. But anyways. I once tried out being a vegan and it lasted for 6 months. I became a vegan because i cant stand the treatment of animals required to produce meat. I quit being a vegan once i noticed that i was losing muscle mass. I like my strength and would never give it up.

So now knowing that muscle preservation or even gaining is the key factor in maintaining my vegan lifestyle. I need help constructing a diet. Intend on starting as of tomorrow. And if my diet is not ready until then i guess i will be consuming extreme amounts of carrots, that i like.

It's great that you're trying to make a change.

You can start off with veganbodybuilding.com. They seem to know what they're talking about.

This is a diet you could start off with:
http://veganbodybuilding.com/?page=article_marcella_003

For the breakfast, it's recommended to eat blackberries or blueberries rather than apples and raisins. The latter are not very good.

You can try to reduce your meat intake slightly every week (e.g. by 10% every week), so there's less of a withdrawal problem.

I or someone else will probably give some more advice later.

Beware, your taste buds will probably need adjusting. You're used to extreme amounts of fat, this food might taste like dirt to you for a while.

I was never a fan of the gradual change approach. I take the cold turkey approach to any change as a matter of principal. Also i haven't eaten breakfast since i was about 10. I am 21. I eat many times a day. But when i get up i have no appetite, and the classic bread that everyone else was eating at breakfast was not something that i liked. So breakfast / eating right after you get... i don't do it. But thanks for the link i am now looking into the second after i post this.

Stay away from carrots; great fiber, but mostly sugar.

In order to keep gaining, you need to eat a higher percentage of your calories from protein than carrots and other very starchy or sweet foods have.

Leafy green vegetables like kale, collards, mustard greens, have a very high percentage of protein to calorie.

The trick with veggies is it's hard to eat a large volume of them, because they're very big, and it's really too much chewing.
Vegetables are high in fiber and water, which are both good for you, but they create a lot of bulk.
Little known fact: By dry weight, broccoli has about as much protein as beef. It's just that broccoli is mostly water.

So, I would recommend you get a powerful blender. Make smoothies, to liquefy the greens and make it easier to consume many kilograms of them. No need for chewing, you can just chug down a kilogram in a few minutes.

Can you give us some metrics on your weight, height, and body fat? (if you have them) Also, how much exercise are you doing?

In this thread, I was discussing protein ratios with Jebus:
https://theveganatheist.com/forum/viewt ... 007#p11007

Sorry, vegetables: Specifically green leafy stuff. As distinct from fruits, nuts, seeds, legumes.

Full fat cow meat has between about 100 - 125 grams of protein per 2k calories.
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/bee ... cts/6208/2

Like that.

Whereas Kale has 175 grams of protein per 2k calories.
That's the kind of veggie I'm talking about.

Lentils have 155 grams of protein per 2k calories (lots of carbs too).
Soy beans are 164 (lots of fat).

Tempeh (which is soy cultured with a fungi) has 198 grams of protein per 2k calories.
And that's a whole cultured plant/fungus food -- the fungus has eaten some of the calories and made some extra protein for you.

Lean meat is another matter; the more fat that has been painstakingly cut off it, the higher the protein per calorie.
That's not a "whole food" though, and people don't really even like extremely lean meat.

Lean beef can be 217 grams of protein per 2k calorie, maybe more.

Tofu is 213.
Mustard greens are 215 (so close!).

It's hard to beat when you cut out all of the fat, because it's not as easy to cut the carbohydrates out of vegetables.

Textured vegetable protein (which is defatted soybean), is 300.
If the butcher gets to carefully cut the fat off the meat, I think we get to defat the soybeans too, right?
And it's high in fiber, unlike the meat.

If you wanted a whole food, like with tempeh, if you cultured the mustard greens with lactofermentation (bacteria rather than fungus), they should eat some of those calories and push the greens over lean meat as well. (Confirmed with one source, 222 grams of protein per 2k calories).

But microorganisms are better.

Spirulina is 400 grams of protein per 2k calories. (Bam!)
And in terms of fungi, nutritional yeast is a whopping 356.

I want to caution you to keep in mind the double edge sword here, though. While gaining on a vegan diet is going to have a much lower cardiovascular risk, and your cancer risk should be reduced a little, it will not be reduced as much as settling into a stable physique that you are comfortable with and using more exercise instead of diet to create gains.

If you think you can live a satisfied life being cut, but not being quite as big (maybe somewhere more moderate), your overall health outcome is going to be a lot better.

The problem with a very high protein diet (this is much worse with meat, but may still be an issue with eating too many concentrated plant sources, like soy protein powder), is that it creates growth hormones, and provides the resources not just for your muscles to grow, but can feed cancer too as a side effect.
This is an inherent and often unavoidable fact of biology. When you create the internal nutritional environment for your muscles, you also do the same for potential cancer growth.

So, my recommendations would be to be strong, have a great body -- but keep it modest. Eat a healthy diet and get as strong as you can on that diet, but don't push it into unhealthy territory. At the extremes, it's going to pose hazards to your health no matter how clean your diet (reduced hazards, but still something to consider).

Whatever you choose to do, we'll help you work out the right diet for it to keep it as safe and healthy as possible. Even if you want to totally hulk out, we can explain the theory and how to do it; it will be healthier than meat (particularly for your heart), but it won't be nutritionally optimal, or increase your lifespan in the way that a good diet with more modest gains would (which could see you living an extra couple decades).

I forgot to mention this, but take a B12 supplement! This is a must, whether you're vegan or not.
Although maybe a 100% meat diet does give sufficient B12, no remotely healthy diet that does not include either fortified foods or a supplement does.

A vitamin D supplement may also be a good idea.

Okay... This all seems so measured. I would never ever schedule my life to such a degree. I would much rather know. Like types of food that i can eat. You say that i cant mass carrots.

Can i mass "Leafy green vegetables like kale, collards, mustard greens". I allways choose what i want, when i am shopping. I don't even remotely care enough to measure the weight of my food.

So i need just names of food types that i can eat. And if some of them should not be massed. Like when people say "eat fish once a week". I would like the freedom to just eat what i see fit. That is also the reason i never followed any of the guides. I don't want to spend a lot of time on it. Just swap out the meat in my diet and know what i can eat instead.

As you say, i need some b12. Then if i have to get some of that once a week it would be easier for me to handle. but the whole "in every meal use 5,31 grams of b12 powder, after shaking it over your head 5 times in the rain."

You can take 1 B12 pill a day, or take 7 once a week. You can get a candy-like pill, or one that dissolves in water. Do whatever works for you, it gets stored very well.


http://www.pcrm.org/health/diets/pplate

Those are the food groups. Besides those, you need to drink.

Fruits:
Berries are the best. Generally look for colorful low sugar fruits. Some of the best are:
- Blackberries
- Tomatoes
- Raspberries
- Blueberries (extremely good in smoothies!)
- Cranberries
- Strawberries (less healthy, but cheaper than the other berries)
- Bell peppers

You can get them frozen to save money. Mixing them with vegetables delivers delicious nutrititious smoothies.

Vegetables:

Green leafy vegetables are the best, as mentioned before. You can eat these all day long and will probably end up okay. I personally like to munch a lot of broccoli, but do whatever you like. Spinach is good, but lacks calcium, so don't only eat spinach.

Some other good vegetables are zucchini/courgette, mushrooms, seaweed and onions.

These too are cheaper frozen.

Legumes:

Beans are very good, and can be eaten a lot too. I like chickpeas and lentils, but eat whichever you like.
Sweet potatoes are pretty great too.

Some processed soy foods, like soy milk, tempeh and tofu are healthful too.

Grains:

Whole grain pasta,. brown rice, black rice, red rice, yellow rice, whole grain tortilla's.. These are mostly the vessels for your vegetables as I see it. They are quite good on their own too, and can be the staple of a healthy diet. For your purposes, vegetables and beans should be the bulk of your calories I think.

If you want one food you can eat all day, a balanced vegetable like Broccoli or a healthful bean are your best bets.

Other:

One b12 supplement a day, or 7 a week.
Drink mostly water and tea (unless you're making green smoothies).

Mr_E wrote: Can i mass "Leafy green vegetables like kale, collards, mustard greens". I allways choose what i want, when i am shopping. I don't even remotely care enough to measure the weight of my food.

Sure, that's fine.

You just need to avoid the sugary/starchy stuff if you want to build a lot.

Leafy greens are safe in any amount. Same with beans. Eat to your heart's content, and no need to measure anything if you limit to the high protein veggies (leafy greens and beans/legumes).

Mr_E wrote:So i need just names of food types that i can eat.

Collard greens, Mustard greens, Kale, Broccoli, cauliflower, and Purple cabbage

I like to buy them frozen, because it's more convenient. The cabbage I usually buy fresh. Cook them well so they're easier to eat more of. Or blend them up into a soup.
I recommend you add spices, like garlic and pepper, and a little bit of mustard powder -- however much you want, no need to measure. Mustard powder adds some enzymes to it, which makes it healthier. Some lemon juice or tomato products. The acid helps make the veggies more nutritious. No need to measure, just add how much you like.
And of course salt to taste.

Beans:
Black beans & Lentils are the best, most nutritious/healthy.
Lentils are great if you like them, because they cook fast.

Split peas (these make good soup)

Any of the above are high protein, and will give you plenty to build on.


Avoid:

Carrots, brown rice, white rice, white corn, yellow corn, sweet fruits.

These are all high in starches and sugars, and will (over time) reduce your ability to build muscle mass.


There is one exception on fruits: Blackberries. These are low in sugar, and higher in protein. Enjoy all you want.

Use a healthy, whole fat source rich in Omega 3.

I recommend Hemp seeds. These are high in protein, and also high in healthy omega 3 fat. And really delicious. Buy them hulled (without the hard shells) if you can find them.
Aside from Hemp, ground/milled Flax seeds are another good option. Also high in protein, and healthy fats. Make sure to get them fresh, though, because they spoil fast (or buy them in a well sealed package), and refrigerate after opening.

For a meaty meat replacement option, I recommend tempeh. This is very high in protein, and easy to digest (no gas).


These are the best things, for nutrition and body building. They might be cheap, or expensive depending on where you live. If you can't find some of them, I can also give you other suggestions. Or if you want a longer list.

Grains are cheaper, but not as useful for building as beans and veggies.
If you choose to eat more grains, whole grains are best. I recommend oats.

Mr_E wrote:As you say, i need some b12. Then if i have to get some of that once a week it would be easier for me to handle. but the whole "in every meal use 5,31 grams of b12 powder, after shaking it over your head 5 times in the rain."

Hah, yes. Once a week is totally cool.
If you buy a bottle of B-12 supplements, it should last a couple years for a few bucks.

So i went shopping prior to your response. What i got was mushrooms, onion, garlic and in some olive oil with some pesto. I put it in the oven. And it was amazing. Better than rips