Transcripts for sourcing.

[NonZeroSum]

no not on let me know let me let's just talk about the child slavery thing so yes sir yes please because of the social contract we have in modern society does that make child slavery unethical yes okay so if we were to go back say a thousand years biblical times we had the social contract that so child slavery was fine would it make it ethical in that situation I'll have a social contracts in it's mine in my context in context what is today and how I think and how I've been the world no in that time yes you're saying child slavery was justified say a thousand years ago when prophet Mohammed lived and he was keeping nine-year-old sex slaves a hundred percent no because I am NOT a fucking psychopath retard right so then it has nothing to do with the social contract yeah I mean you guys still have a hefty stack that we can make our way through but look you're going to say that social contract it justifies some things it doesn't justify others which is the position that I would like all four of us hold right like some can we all agree that sometimes bright sometimes wrong if you don't believe in the social construct being an argument then again why do you buy products that were made by slaves well look this isn't this is a much more complicated situation than what you're making it out to be um like it's very difficult to determine where everything you own has come from there's so many different components so to so many different minerals so many different supply chains it's not absolute no no no no no no no here you let let me let me let me finish let me finish there's so many different supply chains it's impossible for any person to know really what they're buying what went into making these products with animal products you know suffering and death had to go into making that product absolutely you're saying there isn't a rest is fine then ignorance is my I'm not offering well no I'm not saying ignorant is fine I'm just saying what you're suggesting is completely unreasonable like you're saying so it's fine for you to support slavery by buying a monitor which I need for my works like to live and and guys look I'm very happy to get right into the child slavery thing the only reason there's any resistance here is I just want to get the social contract point dealt with it seemed like Andy acknowledged it for a second I mean look all four of us surely agree sometimes the social contract is right sometimes it's wrong yes hundred percent yes that okay okay so so therefore you can't appeal to the social contract per se meaning of itself to justify something right there enough however in tell yourself you get that but but in the context yes hey not you I do but in the context of what we are talking about aka meets yes oh yeah yeah moto instruct that we see that it's fine so you guys won yes sir so you're trying to say that the so so the social contract in this case is correct but the issue that we have here is that like Chris in particular I don't know if Andy did it he was appealing to the social contract yes and that's an illogical argument he was appealing to the social contract he wasn't claiming that I believe the social contract in this situation happens to be correct he was saying because of the social contract therefore it is moral zactly I think if you have miss warded yourself but that is again as part of the overall lack of things we're talking okay wait wait wait Andy you look you guys you just got to get like we're this point alone does not debunk your position it's not like if you acknowledge social contract isn't a justification for shit you know they rape women someplace is that part of the social contract acknowledging social contract doesn't justify something per se that doesn't mean yeah you're right you're right he does a whole debate by another point I totally agree with you and that Emily Chris does two at this point so we can probably all about another aspect of stack that's the course of understand I think it's a Mis wording that I think this was happening I don't I don't know because wise were on the same page all I was all I'm saying is just the end of the day wherever this conversation goes and how we decide to end it I'm still gonna keep feet because dogmatic like yeah exactly I'm still going to eat me I appreciate this having you have you guys here for this competition um yeah we really applied it but i'm using i'm still going to eat meat and whether or not i understood that i mean everybody else will figure it out but again all I'm saying is I'm going to eat meat due to and this is the for every fiber on if I'm doing the same fucking thing again because of the natural order of things that's so and let's move on to natural you go out one week like wait wait one more question I it just leading out of the child slavery thing you said that not everyone knows what was used to like make something when you can clearly research anything like you research what vitamins are in vegetables you research what not and products are going to buy it and you can research where they were made and what area they were made and therefore know that there was human suffering involved so if we're going to look at like like a reflect on eating meat we have to reflect on all this bullshit over here and we've had to accept one of the most disgusting things that are is happening like like on our earth which is you know the fucking suffering and deaths of children slaves I mean there's a lot of horrible shit this world nothing that's to work yeah yeah yeah yeah ok I understand what you're trying to say here I think you're missing the axe you're forgetting like the actual definition of veganism like reduce suffering and death as much as practically possible so yeah we're both ok yeah so good you're it practical and possible for your average person living in modern Western civilization to forgo all cellphones all computer monitors not use any technology just so that they don't support coltan mining in some shitty part of Africa where they use children that are far too young to work and they're being mistreated and also little point there if you want to talk like sweatshops or something in Indonesia I don't know there's lots of examples of this kind of shit it's like yes I'm not always convinced that boycotting is even the best thing to do I mean often you're talking about the best work that people in that area can find and you're talking about a situation where even if you stop supporting that industry they'd shift to another industry which would be equally poorly regulated you'd be talking about needing to boycott all most countries sure sure ok I want to respond to Richard's question um why can't you live without a TV and cell phone because I'm living in modern Western civilization where you absolutely need that to be able to work like Antonia I want to use labor job if you care about suffering and and that's so much why don't you move like it might not take like it might is not people a week of doing this but you might have to spend a few years save a bunch of money you know have a small shed up north and and live off the land why don't you just start working towards stopping the suffering oh well again I don't think that would be in the interest of overall good like why not well like that with this YouTube channel I'm convincing so many people to go vegan think about Animal Ethics like okay so I'm just supposed to forego all of that and move out to the woods and if we consider it on the large scale you're talking about abandoning civilization which surely would need to you know not reaching the higher levels of well-being we could eventually reach and the other the other thing a that's pretty selfish still I think no no no I think I think you they're fine so you'll see or five hang on and so yeah you're appealing to the social cause contract because you like being a youtuber no no is one sec his views are in line with the social contract but he's not saying because of the social contract its ethical he's deploying separate argumentation so so so you're saying because it'd be difficult and you'd rather be using a lot of equipment well no that's not okay go suffering well no no no yeah because you want to stay where you are and live where you are and do what you want which I believe you can do ever you want you're fine with the suffering and death of human beings no that's not what I said at all I said it's not in the best interest of myself and just the world in general I think I'd have a much more positive impact doing what I'm doing right here then trying to move out into the woods and like live off the land and just forget I would bend the whole most ultimate thing because in order to reduce by the vegan standard then iswell no reduction no no as much as practice practical and possible like that's not practical or possible you're tough you're talking about vegans wanting civilization to be completely destroyed that we don't want the fall of civilization to be clear there are very badly want that they're called they call themselves a narco primitive best vegans but I'd say one one thing here look what you guys are saying is effectively there's always a higher ethical standard possible so if you're not aiming for that how could you criticize others for being less ethical than you right yes yeah so you there's the problem with that is that there is a categorical separation between directly murdering something and doing it by accident so unless you think for example that driving should come with a murder charge because some amount millions of people die every year from cars sorry boys correct cars then oh yeah it's okay yeah I mean if if you're acknowledging a categorical separation between directly murdering someone and driving a car which ends up killing a certain amount of people per year then you can't reject that categorical separation in the animal context so like for example Richard and I we know that we're going to kill a certain amount of animals every year we're totally fine with a bunch of animals getting Mercs by cars we get that what we're talking about is unnecessary suffering that you are causing directly and you can do that by driving up north fucking dumping your car in a ditch and then building a house out of fucking whatever and now you've stopped the suffering and death of human beings do you think driving should come with a murder charge no and I'm not example to keep that's my point I'm saying we shouldn't judge people on the death of other things on this earth we shouldn't judge someone I'm not saying so I can just kill everyone you kill anything I want and you shouldn't be able to judge me you're not a for you like you're sir you're not separating the difference between unintentionally causing harm and and death and intentionally causing harm and death well they sell fine okay fine no you're right about that so sorry I jumped way too far into that but again my point still stands where if you really wanted to stop the suffering and death of absolutely everything you and I wouldn't kill everything so how would you feel about the argument that you think you misheard me I think mr. to what I said how would well do you want to repeat yourself I've got something to say after you know it's like how would you respond to the argument that you can't criticize Jeffrey Dahmer for murdering someone because I mean you're not doing everything you can why aren't you living in a grass hut in the forest okay well okay because I don't want to I don't care about the suffering I care about it but socks that I'm doing it so yes so I'm I'm a piece of shit how do you guys then how can I just you know like bundle up a bunch of the arguments how can you conflate all your examples with aliens rape and the Holocaust but the moment I bring up the suggestion that we can stop suffering by driving up north you threw that away because it's completely unreasonable you're saying we should abandon technically and completely aliens and alien dependent no here is the bolt rape no they're also judgment no your this is completely different we're trying to make an analogy that gross still egging white entertain consistent yeah but you're not a moron but the galaxies that have been made so far honestly have absolutely been ridiculous oh yeah I'm on their side hauling some language they got in an argument though well let you look at what you've done successfully is to take these ridiculous analogies and apply to us and we've been we talk them through when we throw something back at you and you deflect it and go oh it's different it doesn't matter that separate well Holika men no no no I giving a reason for why it's unreasonable what you're saying okay okay so so then why was it unreasonable exactly well divider say wait bring it aliens it will rise but listen having up north you're telling everyone to completely abandon you're saying everyone should completely abandon civilization to minimize suffering entirely well you bet - no I'm not going saying that oh no you not adding if you cares you don't bad well care so much about something you have to abandon it and go up and do that because that explain any interest everything myself based on that I have to stop everything myself in order to better better the world of whatever reasons now I'll ask you that and then your signal it's different I'm not going to do that in the interest of the overall good I think we are la colina we need to talk about the legitimacy of hypotheticals and demonstrating someone's inconsistent so look if you say that you're a padlet is for example hypothetical I don't need to turn another curriculum girl's arm and wait Chris Chris if someone says old shit hypotheticals only goes so far and you'll be I'll be able to destroy a biker with a bunch of hypothetical things - when we're talking about actually killing of the animals you got me on the industry I disagree with it and that's all a I will never never argue you guess don't argue the nutrition the thing that you get me on and this is probably where I got the wrap-up suit is you guys got me on the the killing of the animals and the murdering I'm against that but I'll still do it and that's I think that's that that's well it's just not going on here yeah I mean you're correct I love the - I Richard you are correct I don't care it doesn't bother me to eat a fish and just kill it and eat it because I've separated myself from that I thought lgy also like I just want finish this point look the legitimacy of hypotheticals in demonstrating someone's inconsistent right so if you were to say I'm a pacifist I don't support violence in any context we don't need to get pay some guy to go fucking mug you and see if you defend yourself to determine if you're actually a pacifist I mean we can expose it with a hypothetical if someone's going to rape your mom are you really not going to do anything to stop them if you if you say yes then you know maybe you really are a pacifist but if you if you say no I'd fuck that person up then that hypothetical exposes that you are not a pacifist so then how does that I pathetical about nine no no the hypothetical of I brought up about if you care about suffering so much then why can't you move to a place where no resources are made by slaves well I why what what why is that hypothetical and just you not civilization right like white what Y is now does that not work for you well I I already gave the explanation it's because it's not in the interest of the overall good oh yeah okay no let's say then someone who doesn't make a youtube videos but has the exact same mentality as you why aren't they stopping and I'm heading up friggin north so you're saying and I was a youtuber and if you if you didn't if you didn't know that your message would spread to so many people therefore helping more so I understand what you're doing I'm not trying to say that you're doing a bad thing I'm but what I'm saying is to someone who has your same mentality and viewpoint set on this subject if if why aren't they doing it why are they okay with the cellphone in the car and everything when they can stop suffering of every of everything the suffering they're causing in particular yes yes yeah well I still don't think that would be in the interest of the overall good like you know people have an impact on everyone around them like why would moving out in the middle of nowhere like that wouldn't really solve much like we can all make a difference even if you're not a youtuber you can talk to people about veganism how to reduce the suffering and death are causing like abandoning civilization completely isn't going to be in the interest of overall good like it's finally like wait wait a second like especially the organism our goal is to get more people to go vegan so like oh the end goal is the entire art goes vegan like it might take a very long time well let's talk about that let's talk about that like we just let me just finish my thought you know you guys are trying to screw us on being inconsistent here so let's let's finish sure so let me I finish this this thought um if you're saying like I like we should move out into the middle of nowhere and live off nature entirely like the end goal should be everyone does that well how is that going to be in the interest of the overall good if everyone's living off the land okay well we're going to move back to a tribal society people are going to have to kill animals like this doesn't that that's not mean first of all all good I'm not sitting messing everyone I'm saying uh yeah and explain why for example thank you thank you yeah bang if you claim to be ethical why don't you follow it to its logical conclusion which is women care well I'll give you an example of a vegan revolution who takes it like Ozzy way too far in my opinion that guy for example when I was a vegan I think I I was talking about possibly eating something that might have you know a little bit of milk powder in it because I was just dying and starving and where I was I had no like food I got destroyed by vegans so you're a rapist you you like murder you're this you're that because I had a fucking crack for that fucking milk product on it this is the kind of of mentality that people like us that that's like like that all-or-nothing thing okay I'm not like I'm not going to call you a rapist because you ate a cracker with a bit of milk powder in it but I was called a rapist by hundreds my money is not other people like I mean okay I think I kind of understand more where you're coming from now but the thing is you're not dealing with like two people here that are completely unreasonable yeah no Audrey and the cool thing is sorry so I like so yeah just I don't understand what point you're trying to make by grilling us about why don't you just go out in the middle of the wilderness and no even a mother thing is the hypotheticals that you gave us were pretty absurd in the sense of aliens attacking I know you're kind of like fine okay well okay robots are the morality aspect on that right but my point my hypothetical though it's ridiculous why don't you it could stop suffering because obviously you hate the suffering and death of speech of anything on the earth and I honestly really respect that and I'm not saying go to the middle of the voice what I'm saying is if you're going to judge our morality based on provenience then you have to look in the mirror and look at your own morality when you're fine with the suffering and death of slaves so do you think we could do more good for the world by moving into the forest I mean to stop slavery all of us yes if everyone stopped buying TVs and shit you know there was slavery back when like in biblical times before they had television so it I think also you guys yes I mean the whole thing is like I don't mind getting into a conversation of what products we should and shouldn't support and like what kind of life is the ethical life but you're treating it like to criticize the Holocaust the animal Holocaust to be girlier that you have to move out into the forest but you wouldn't say that someone needs to move in the forest you for example criticize Jeffrey Dahmer right so there's a categorical separation between directly causing suffering and I forgot so what you're saying is that no one lives by absolute mills gonna know oh I'm not even convinced that it's more ethical to live in the forest I mean no you are rooted here in the open the overall like we have to have computers as you're saying because it makes life more convenient and I understand that and driving and all that stuff yes know what your thing is so you're saying is not every person lives by moral ethical standards no not to bend it the rules sometimes and I don't think eating meat happy no IIIi would deny that living in the forest is actually the ethical ultimate goal I mean either slaves far ladies well I mean you're just saying for one person one or the overall well-being of the human species continuing to progress civilization participate in the economy by the things that are necessary in order to progress society and make your contribution I think that you can make a better contribution for the good in that way than by just going out and isolating yourself so and sure I made egg way that they fall into what Richard is started saying the overall good I kind of want to see if we can wrap up on that on that kind of topic here overall because the vegan perspective is the overall good of not eating animals doesn't cause death and suffering to the animals hundred percent 100% that does have an overall good in in terms of the animals suffering that's one thing I definitely want to want to give you guys at four do you um probably know if you guys don't read unreasonable but do you guys look at other people as someone who's trying to spread that message do you guys look at you know obviously that is overall good you guys look at other people as less it's kind of bad way to frame it cuz you okay I know more people yeah like yeah I don't have meeting friends too but I guess maybe I'm having a little difficult I'm een I think that again there's like I would make another really categorical separation here between types of mediators so someone who yet fully fully knows what they're supporting they know that a cow is just getting stabbed to death I mean someone who really knows what's up and they support it yeah I would actually hold that that person is evil but the majority of meat-eaters don't actually know what's happening or don't in any meaningful way think about it so it'd be pretty absurd to judge them fair enough I hope that became they secure you because I was and I would even say guys obviously as I prefer the the humane way of killing the animals right there's well we came with killing well I like fur fur non-radiative hating me for eating the meat hey you're gonna have to give me not one at a time okay though I just for the purpose of I want to eat the beat it yeah okay I have tip to be that um I you know I like to think that happens does it happen I'm probably going to be on the side of no and I will agree I I will not disagree that because they have the policies but you know I know and I hadn't even see it that it's not being followed to a tea with every single animal so what do I think there should be more control yes but that's where we would differ on off to the office of killing and I'd give you that because I don't know what goes on around I want to add just one thing to think would you do you look at yourself as morally superior than metres not on the whole I mean like look if you take a mediator who's given billions to some kind of charity or something it's like that person has objectively caused more good than me but generally speaking if you hold every other variable constant someone who doesn't support the animal Holocaust is more ethical than someone who does okay so basically let's say you had a twin who did everything that you do - eaten yes they're less ethical okay cool I see what you're saying to you so because she here's the one thing I like the one negative aspect and by the way of digging today's your channel is awesome and I actually do like it and a lot of people were at replied me he's horrible I'm like it's entertainment I know he's exaggerating excited unbarring scream you wouldn't actually murder people you're angry about a buin and murder people I think you're fucking funny and I don't agree with a lot of the shit you say but I still like watch and laugh and go like Jesus ridiculous play look in a funny way right also again I did not eat meat for a while therefore I understand what you're doing and you're doing it to outrageousness like goes viral therefore more people are going to see you therefore bitch are not going to trash your hat so that's so like I'll defend you on that quick part for shirt very good what do you say um well I just I think that probably the strongest angle you guys have come in from is trying to expose some kind of hypocrisy so I just want to I want to kind of try to hammer on that because like look we can talk about the others I'm pretty sure that you know intelligent species these things you know it's not it's just not going to work they create double standards if you want to talk about hypocrisy unless you can spell out some kind of difference between humans and animals which if true of humans would make it okay to basically just support human murder unless you're willing to go and live in the forest then it's a double standard to apply that kind of reasoning to animals yeah well yeah well right and I knew I was deaf about his title I was not finished my point was title you interrupted me I was already go on so I like all that stuff I think you're entertained well don't you think though that making videos on furious P having cancer and laughing about it filming your grandpa dying and then posting it and doing a lot of really horrible things puts a bad bad light on you therefore fucking up your entire message I think you're funny but like there's something you've done that I would look at like yo man you're losing people here you're losing because believe it or not believe it or not I I would be like you know because of the theoretical side humans could be all vegan you got a view on that because you're you guys trying to do something that honestly I couldn't do yeah I just I don't I don't buy the you couldn't for the record you could go vegan if you want thank you very much there is that what my step into a mentally retarded or something so I'm sure three can manage at a little bit let's be honest but like you like the whole point so yeah I think what do you say it's just like way you guys present yourself I guess that's probably what Roman was trying to get to we want you guys to prevent present yourself as best as possible because you can convince some other people to join it and do it that is the transition correct like if you were like if you were like like funny and outrageous but then you took away the irreps yawn I'm gonna slit his throat hey I just told my grandpa died I don't care I want to show it like if you took out the like it's almost like a Hakeem star type of fact sometimes he's interesting and funny and then he kind of spins that you're like I wanted to like you I wanted to like you who you know what I mean right well I think if you had just focused on comedy and being outrageous and then removed all the fucking extra horrendous shit like laughing at someone having cancer I think your message would spread way way more quick well the thing is like I'm not a perfect person and you know I'm not going to pretend to be someone else like you know what I fucking hate furious Pete not just because he eats me like because he put a copyright claim on my video like I just take that really okay Emily I feel that that's also why I allegedly threatened rep C on like on a twitch stream and shit too but you know like whatever I'm not a perfect person like that's all I really have to say and I'm not going to just in the words and think yeah like I'm not going to be I got to pretend to be like this perfect fucking human being like yeah I fuck I'm gonna say some crazy shit sometimes and that's my that's the one thing why I was kind of like wondering how this would go because I'm like you know he's made me laugh and he's been outrageous sometimes and then sometimes I'm like I fucking hate him right now but like I was like I often like please I think you're like the most shadow I've ever subscribed and unsubscribed to compliment it's like strangely though one day I'm like alright you know what that was but that was alright and then one day I'm like alright just trying to murder my friend that's pretty fucked up about it know what I mean and I think the thing that a lot of people like talk to us about especially before this stream like throughout the weeks that we had at bland was they were asking like do you believe your betters and other people people have the perception that you're better that and and that's why when they watch your videos they're sort of like you know what I don't even want to like listen to him because he's acting all like he's the best thing ever he's done all these horrible ex lines be whatever you did like don't you and you've just admitted that you want a perfect person that I appreciate that but but like we look at us as terrible people for before what we have said today um like it does affect my perception of you like especially Chris it's like I wouldn't consider you like I wouldn't consider you a good person Chris like in general just because of what you said it's not like I can't hang out with you and have a friendly conversation or anything but like you know I wouldn't consider you a good person thank you Richard III honestly III knew that it was going to be a disagree to agree to disagree situation yeah I'm okay with that well so well but people in the chat are like oh now you're sucking his cock on it I don't hate him because he's vegan because I would be pissed if he hated me because I wasn't yeah you dumb motherfuckers in the chat you can be friends or friendly with someone who you disagree with you retard yeah oh I hate I appreciate you saying that to my face I honestly do because I I don't anticipate our vegan ISM I don't like I'm not religious but doesn't mean I'm not going to respect my friend who is religious whatever religious they believe no I do judge them though I do judge them we all yes sir okay you're good you're going to naturally tell you I'm with and that's just how it is and I accept that because I have in a meter so your eyes yeah I'm not going to be the best person and obviously if I were to try and go oh well now I'm just not validating your beliefs in your experiences and that's something the point I wanted to make because I kind of knew that's where it's going to go man I appreciate you saying that honestly uh guys I think that I mean if we're talking about closing up soon I think it would be worthwhile to just kind of go through the justifications almost you guys think are are working here so just just to sum up I mean I've heard you guys you've said intelligence you've said we she's you said vegans aren't doing everything they can to reduce suffering are there any are there any other vital ones in there uh you have to sort of think honestly man it's been a long few hours I think it's good to out I think you add I don't care that much yeah I I don't care I think I think I would add that and you can call me on whatever you want I dare all right so we've got species intelligence you guys are hypocrites and I don't care so I mean I would just sum up I'm going to be p-ting myself but you know and you would never have another how much you don't yeah I mean you want to cast another okay better they're not involved equivalences I mean you wouldn't accept another species are doing you you can't appeal the species you wouldn't accept being killed based on intelligence you can't appeal to intelligence you wouldn't accept that someone doesn't live a perfect life as justification for doing you know rape or murder or anything so you can't really appeal to the fact that someone's not ethically perfect and just for the record the assumption that living in the forest is the ethical ideal is I think very wrong and we could get interviews and then okay what about suffering so long I'm just summing up my well yeah you're saying for if we care about ethics to be consistent we have to live in the forest you don't so you would not do that I get you and then the other one you said is I just don't care and again someone saying you know I just don't care about rape I just don't care about murder you wouldn't extend on a specification so okay in my view so you guys can go on about how wealth analogies and whatever but in my view as far as I can possibly see none of the justifications that you've presented are justifications that you would actually accept it applied to yourself so I'm not seeing a consistent as article reasoning here for doing that so so let's go over what you've done you've brought up aliens you've talked about reiki music honesty equivalence and of eating here and was like I knew you put the the equivalence of raping and eating meat on the same level eating retards is the same thing essentially you've also said that suffering is fine if you want your your proper job and everything and and sometimes we have to just accept it and you I've also said or implied that species doesn't matter because reasons well no I mean I've said you can't appeal to species if you wouldn't accept someone else appealing the species to kill you you can't do it to kill someone else if you wouldn't accept someone else saying well you don't live a perfect life so it's okay for me to just do what I want and you can't drop that if you you know if you wouldn't accept intelligence you can't deploy intelligence it's just the whole pattern I mean you can sigh you can ridicule you can do all that but I'm not I'm not judging by the way I'm not really she laid on this I'm just trying to see reel it in like a first-year like philosophy course it wouldn't be at all ridiculous to mention any kind of hypothetical like this okay I've analogy I totally demonstrate that I feel differently about different Andy my Isaac I was hesitant to do a summary because I do not want to bring up the conversation because now we're going to get back into it we got to wrap it up guys so that's why I was hesitant to do that I'm happy with my wrap up yes so honestly so it was good good ah but I want to say thank you guys so much for having the balls and as well as you and me having to follow along and he wanted US forces to come and do this because I lacks go turn John because of Twitter is all this shit up in a nicer goddamn plane why do we have to end nice name bye suckers know we don't know Pleasant way gives a shit you know how are your thoughts both get Holocaust by aliens yeah I will i well know what guys thank you so much I will be putting consistent third stream but it's not with you lady and put your links on standard to Ted's Chris come on my chill fuck out for such fine looks good and welcome to read him yeah what if I was lazy I want to be there that we fire what about how would be that would be logically consistent yeah I win all right I won't that debate papaya so everyone I'm gonna put their lives in the description bar a go sub to them and check them out and guys and thank you for coming on I really appreciate it yeah there is good talking to both of you and I am happy to do it again at any point yeah and I'm sorry it didn't end up for the audience it didn't end up costing their pocket please a guard like we're trying to vs yeah so what were you guys we managed to get through this very civilly you know awesome thank you I'm sure Richard still angry I thought caring about meeting me but yo sorry buddy sometimes I'll just have to split your throats later you know okay I have evidence you guys the murders do is gently do elbows thanks for watching alright I guess peace alright thanks Richard man guys fuck the prom see you guys you guys push our buttons loved it you guys push the sentiment that we've actually never gone to this was the most uh people we had watching on our show ever yeah honestly guys I have we have disagreeing opinions but fuck man it was actually enjoyable despite maybe the headache I might have caused you guys and I think I should press like you're fucking my father's oculus like to say buy you hundred but yeah thanks for coming on the show guys and by the way we have a friend who who who met you like we live in the same city but I'm in Toronto Mississauga actually but we have like a friend who met you like fucking last year or some chick and it was a friend of a friend so we're in the same neighborhood saying that okay yeah I'm not anxious tink doom Lord's work but yeah for sure like tastebuds cheers guys writing idea alright that's it for the debate everyone thank you to everyone who donated in the super chat seriously seriously appreciate it and sorry like I couldn't mention your names during the debate like you know obviously it's a live discussion and everything but the full debate will be up on my channel just in a little bit and as always keep making those vegan games I gotta get out of s

[NonZeroSum]

Vegan Gains & Ask Yourself vs. Roaming Millenial & Ranting Monkey

Transcript hey guys this is roaming millennial thanks for tuning in today today we have a quite a few people in the stream I think more than I've ever hosted before but today we're going to be talking about a recent video that I made called the problem with vegans and vegan gains response video to it if you're active on Twitter you've probably seen stuff about this on our timelines yeah so here to talk about that today I have vegan gains and ask yourself and ranting monkey is also joining me and moderating is Blair white everyone's channels channel links will be in the description if you want to check any one out later and like I mentioned to Blair before we started I feel with videos like this they kind of lose their productivity after about an hour so we are going to try to keep this to an hour in length and stop at around 12:30 so you guys want to say hi hi everyone hi everyone okay so um I guess I'll start I made a video I think was about a week ago and it was about vegan and I think you know there's been a lot of responses from the from different vegan youtubers and I think you know there were some points that were brought up that I think we're pretty good but overall I think a lot of a lot of the responses did sort of take my argument in a different way that it was meant and if you I would think you can maybe go kind of break my video down go point by point kind of like a life response to you to it so we can talk about welcome problems what the problems you guys saw with it and yeah that's okay the first thing I think a lot of people had with my video was the fact that they took it as an assault on all vegans and I think you know vegan gains I think that's something you yourself as well that I was saying you cache tag all vegans well the thing is um taking the entire video in context like you not own when he just said things that were near the end of the video that were just scientifically incorrect but you misrepresented the entire vegan community and it almost seemed deliberate and it did seem like an attack against us so a quote from your video at 11 minutes 22 seconds vegans don't like to bring this up especially to potential recruits but if you're going vegan you will need to take a b12 supplement if you actually look at vegan on YouTube channels and search b12 we're not hiding a secret about b12 that you need to take a supplement so right here you're trying to suggest that we're trying to get people to go vegan and we don't even give a crap if it harms them mm-hmm so D what I'm saying here yeah and that you know the b12 thing that's actually and you know the thing is when I'm making a video like this it is it is I I fully admit I am speaking in generalizations right and you know I did try to mention you know this isn't about all vegans but that is something I could have done a better point at you know emphasizing at each point hey not all vegans not all vegans do this not all begins do this because I understand when someone's talking about your community you know whether or not it applies to you right there you're going to feel like it's sort of attacking your ideology so you know I totally agree that other words really and I know you're into that greatest art I mean I'm pretty sure you said something along the lines of as a general rule I don't have tens like vegans or being in behavior so I mean that framing does seem like you're not talking about you know just a small chunk of vegans it seems like you're talking about a lot of us but then you'll just you are a vegan that is a normal person I don't have an issue with you you do you I think is the exact phrase that I said so don't you think there's an implication about the percentage of vegan to behave like this when you say as a general rule maybe but I mean this is again just my experience with onions there do you think that it's really more like that not robbing finish Masato like maybe like I think the thing is we have to look at this kind of as a vegan I'm sure you felt personally attacked on my video but I also make videos about feminists and any time I talked about some this I actually never mentioned hashtag not all feminists even though that is what I mean so I think here we're talking about semantics of well how many of these vegans were you talking about I would on to delineate specific behaviors so I think you know if you're not a beacon because conforms to any of those behaviors it's pretty safe to say that my video wasn't about you yeah but you said as a general rule so it seems like it's talking about a large percentage so if you have any I need not be completely autistic here but do you have any kind of actual like hist --ax or evidence that he can behave like this in general I do all you have to do is look at the comments that we've gotten Clemens videos is that you how is that not evidence of having value that isn't evidence yeah it's not as we would you consider evidence then I would consider any kind of like actual ticket like you're talking about comments you personally received annual yeah I mean if you guys want to say some fraction of vegans behave like this we're not sure how many that's fine but if you're going to say as a general rule yeah I mean I would want to see something more than an anecdote at a comment section well what she didn't say as a general rule all vegans are jerks what she said is not she doesn't like she doesn't enjoy associating with you yeah she describes why so the implication is that it's because as a general rule beef students are up behaving in this way I mean presumably if they weren't then you wouldn't as a general rule have a problem well I think um it is fair to say that this video was based on my experiences with vegans and you know my experiences they are what they are yeah and I specifically and I you know it's again important to remember like ranting lucky said I as a general rule don't like vegan behavior or you know because they do these things and then you know like I said before if you're not a vegan who doesn't conform to the things that I mentioned it is safe to say that that the video doesn't apply to you if we're talking about like well you implied how many vegans act like this I mean that's bad that really is this a semantic point to make a dishonest rhetoric the issue it is it doesn't address it doesn't address the core of the issue and it's a feminist if a feminist were to look at any one of my videos and were to say well how many how many or what percentage of feminists address or sari conform to this sort of militant behavior you're talking about I needs a statistic think you know the fact that and again like you can call it anecdotal but we're talking about personal interactions with people and these are documented personal interactions that I have had okay well would you at least acknowledge that you can't put any kind of percentage on yeah I absolutely agree we can't quite probably go to general rule if you can't put a percentage on because general rule doesn't necessitate the percentage okay so it's ageless it's your personal idea yeah that's what she was saying it's her video her opinion you know opinion and back it up with any evidence except a monkey can appointed on it so what does filming good shape man roaming dead state as a general rule her experience with vegans what does imply you know her personal interactions of course she can't really add easier I as a general rule my experience and she did concede that she could have done a better job of talking about weak invisible I wanna say if you can't give any kind of real evidence for a percentage you shouldn't be talking about general rules you can say I'm only talking about those who view statements of five you all you want but when you say general rule and you can't put any kind of percentage on it that's a as well as just it's not actually something even back up it's well you're asking for a percentage of the hurt experience well if you want to say that your experience reflects reality yeah I would definitely ask for a percentage or at least some kind of indication more than the comment section that you're pointing to well I'm asking well I'm trying to point out is that my experience reflects what I said my experiences does reflect the reality of what my experiences like reflect the reality of reality well Roman like it's very clear that you misrepresented the vegan community here like for the the first like the first thing I mentioned was the b12 issue you were trying you're trying to state that most vegans will try to hide nutrition information from you that could potentially harm you just because they want you to go vegan which is completely untrue you look at the majority of vegan videos on YouTube like actual vegan channels he'll tell you about b12 like there's videos on my channel where I admit to taking b12 injections and you also stated your fifth issue with vegans in your video you stated that vegans often misrepresent nutritional data and then you continue to misrepresent nutritional data actually that point is something that I would like to address um and again like I I can see like if I had I'm the kind of person who makes response videos to different committees all the time and so I didn't really think to make this one any more or less specific than the videos that I make on feminism so you know maybe that's my slipper was a topic that's so complex and intricate like a like nutrition you decided to hang on my cherry pick no you're not I'm not sharing anything online to model which cherry picked you randomly cherry picked online blogs that supported your bias and you thought that was adequate evidence to argue against veganism I'm not arguing against veganism if you know your words to be sorry if you listen to the entire point that I made at the end of the video I finished with you can be healthy if you like if you're vegan it can be really healthy but it's not this perfect utopian diet that a lot of you guys make it absolute attestation what a tremendous reward and homing finish that is the exact quote of what I said in my video it is and so yeah let me explain why that's relevant so you know what I'm talking about b12 supplements a lot of so many vegans that and again this is all based on my personal experiences so many vegans especially you know I've seen even more of this as a result of that video tell me like no I don't need a plan on taking any siblings I just beans and rice and I'm totally fine like it and stuff like that and I'm not saying that you know vegan bloggers to talk about nutrition specifically are doing this obviously not most of the information I've learned about being a supplement has come from vegans like vegan nutrition experts themselves saying hey we need this we need this because we're not getting it from men and that you know I think that's great if you're trying to advocate for veganism obviously presenter right information but you know my issue is with vegans who like I said presented as this perfect utopian diet but the reality is you will need you will need to at the very least plantings and that's what any nutritionist will tell you well that's a throwaway statement like it's a worthless throwaway statement because any diet you have to appropriately plan to be healthy and I'm very clear with these like I think that's very clear by just looking at America or really any developed Western civilization most people are overweight unhealthy and incredibly high rates of chronic disease heart disease diabetes cancer so what the hell are you even trying to suggest when if you're going to go vegan you need to to plan appropriately so if you eat meat you don't have to plan your diet appropriately there's a very you're trying to suggest something here you're trying to suggest that vegan diets are inherently deficient or inherently nutritionally deficient and you have to take extra special care and attention to ensure you won't become unhealthy as a vegan which is completely untrue and you even admitted in your own video that vegans on average tend to be healthier so you're like you're conflicting your own statements conflict with each other in your own video well actually the thing with veganism is that vegan like a vegan diet enough enough itself all the all the requirements like for someone to adhere to a vegan diet is to just not eat animal products within that yeah you can be unhealthy and yeah you can be totally healthy if you plan right and take supplements and that's the point was it's a worthless early statement no it's like I said in the beginning of the video many meat eaters are unhealthy they eat too much processed meats they eat way too much meat as a percentage of their diet but the thing is like if there was a huge meat movement that was going around telling people that you know or if there were significant members in that group telling people hey I just eat meat all the time and I'm totally fine I would take issue with that and that's you know the vegans who are going around saying I don't need a plan at all you know you don't really have any of any supplements or you know just rice and beans it's totally fine there are vegans like that and you know for those people I think they are they're kind of downplaying how much effort if you can diet will take and that's not to say that meat eaters don't need a plan at all I don't think that at all but again I'm personally I'm not aware of this meat eating movement trying to convince people to eat more meat yeah you actually reference dr. Mike Mark Hyman who suggested butter was a health food and you actually used his video to suggest that saturated fat and cholesterol has no relation with heart disease and again not what he said that that is what exactly what he said he actually made two videos and you referenced the one video where he claimed that new studies have recently come out where they found no association between saturated fat consumption and heart disease and you you criticize vegans for misrepresenting nutritional studies in the video that is a misrepresentation of nutritional nutritional data yes excuse me was that something she specifically highlighted in her video no yes yeah that was you you his video in your video if she used part of his video that's fine but did she use the part you were talking about she did and I responded that in my response when used a clip where he suggested that saturated fat consumption has no relation to heart disease risk you're saying he suggested that saturated fat consumption has no no relation to heart disease risk when what he actually said was that when you look at populations of meat eaters who are health conscious and no no no no parents who are yes that is what he said that is exactly what he said that is what he said but you're also missing another point weight as we said but like but everybody that's there not your voice you're missing the context this dr. Mark Hyman that you referenced he was arguing that saturated fat and cholesterol has no relation to heart disease risk and I pointed out in my response why that is incorrect right but the part of the video that I hate no no let's just send us here do you think saturated fat and cholesterol consumption has any relation to heart disease risk yes yes I do okay so then you agree that animal products increase heart disease risk if you if you eat them too much no no vamo just hang on yeah if you eat them smiles as if changes when we talk about animal products you know people vegans not all of them obviously hashtag not all any time disclaimer anytime I say vegans hashtag not all oh goodness so yes any time you know meat is mentioned the thing is that they're not a they're not a homogeneous screw right something like red meat is very different than something like salmon and if you look at the longest living populations on the planet they they are not vegan what stage inoculation on the planet is anticipated lat roaming finish Labour's they are not vegans but they also do not eat large amounts of red meat and I think that that is really important then you know when we look at any food group we also have to wait pros and cons the benefits to eating them and how much we should be taking in you know vegans of soy if you're vegan probably makes up a significant amount of your diet if you eat too much soy can have negative side effects on your health including kind of messing up your hormone level that's not to say that we shouldn't eat any soy chai basically an accurate data NPR I know is accurate the only the only case reports and all the medical literature that show a negative effect of soy consumption on hormone levels there's only two case studies these subjects were eating minimum 14 servings of soy per day so you're talking about like 10 blocks tofu and that's fine like how many of you can hide 10 blocks of tofu like completely irrelevant I'm not saying that vegans will have messed up hormones because they eat so I'm saying that soy in and of itself could like anything you eat if you're eating too much of it and not uni in balance can have a negative side effect of your health made is one of those things and we are at a level in our society where I completely agree that we are eating too much meat okay you're playing a semantics game for okay oh oh run this I'll break this down the healthy normal physiological range for LDL cholesterol is 50 to 70 milligrams per deciliter this is the level where atherosclerosis cannot occur and if you don't know atherosclerosis just means clogging of your arteries at 75 milligrams per deciliter or over this is where atherosclerosis starts to progress this relationship is linear so the higher your cholesterol score the faster a thorough sclerosis progresses when you consume dietary saturated fat and cholesterol your cholesterol score goes up and this also is a hyperbolic curve so what happens is if you eat a very small amount of saturated fat and cholesterol that will have a dramatic impact on raising your serum cholesterol score if your serum cholesterol is already high adding more dietary cholesterol and saturated fat won't do much so what you're saying is meat animal products these foods that contain saturated fat and cholesterol they are only harmful in large quantities these small quantities are very harmful they will raise your cholesterol significantly and you need very low cholesterol scores to avoid atherosclerosis 50 to 70 milligrams per deciliter and if you're going to make this claim we need to eat meat and moderation what is moderate proved to me what amount of meat you can eat without raising your cholesterol score above 70 milligrams per deciliter yeah that would be actually a great study that I would love to see more information on I also want to point out again here never any source not every meat sources the you know has the same amount of cholesterol if we're talking about something like jellyfish which I eat actually more of than red meat yeah jellyfish is a very good source of protein and directions are a good source person because it because it's routine no why is a good source of protein that's an intention but like where it what's the point I wasn't doing while you're wait wait guys guys Roman one of your finishing tasks asking or why is it a good source of protein yeah and after making don't we deny that cholesterol is going to vary between food I mean I don't think anyone would suggest that know the problem I know the problem is you're playing a semantics game you're you're saying that if you eat something harmful infrequently enough it won't have any effect on your health that's like arguing okay cigarettes aren't the problem it's smoking too many cigarettes and when you combine the ethical issue of killing animals your argument is complete nonsense that's right you know there's no higher guys roaming needs to respond to these points that roaming respond right but you're you're saying my argument is like inconsequential my argument here was that you know that the health implications that are related to me are misrepresented by the vegan community when it comes to studies showing that vegans live longer that is the exact way my video frames it and again like I was wrong like ask yourself says I don't think that everyone is trying to group all meeting like all meat products in the same way but when you're talking about things that are high in cholesterol not every meat product is high in coming through that contains cholesterol you is bad for you cholesterol is bad for you and you're trying to suggest that you can still eat it and be healthy which is a nonsense argument that's like a thing you can still smoke cigarettes and still be healthy well sure if you want to eat if you only smoke one or two cigarettes a month that's not really going to make a difference but the argument still is cigarettes are unhealthy cholesterol is unhealthy why are you saying that it is okay to consume cholesterol for health when it is clearly not healthy makes no sense I'm not saying that it's okay to consume cholesterol we might agree that cholesterol is bad for you yes cholesterol is obviously bad for you but there always vary between weight we also there's also a difference between different types of cholesterol and not all meat has the same amount of cholesterol so getting an book you don't know no again you don't know what you're talking about if you look at the meta-analysis I reference of 395 metabolic award experiments a dietary saturated fat and cholesterol raises your serum LDL bad cholesterol significantly it only raises your HDL good cholesterol by an insignificant margin so when you're going to question wendy when you're talking about these studies and you're saying like meet what meets again like i'm not advocating that everybody eat everybody eats take all the time every day like I know I'm saying these specific isolated nutrients saturated fat and cholesterol significantly raises your LDL bad cholesterol and it only causes a minor increase in your HDL good cholesterol the overall net effect is harmful yeah but your your again you're not saying that you know you're saying all are and so the thing with this is that you're you're trying to make it seem like I'm saying that cholesterol is good where you're I'm not saying : oh you are good for us we matter but how many bottoms are not one on attaining cholesterol is good for you but there are other health so then I'd read about animal products that contain cholesterol are unhealthy there are some there are there's a variation of cholesterol levels within an oh I agree I agree animal products everyone everyone show up for a second Adam we thought to be a conversation it can't be Roman gross Road Road how to finish our sentence for her okay sure okay go roaming thanks blur animal products that have more more cholesterol are obviously less healthy for you than animal products that don't have high cholesterol especially when we're talking about something like these compared to again the jellyfish one of my favorite foods so you know I think having a discussion about what it means you know to have a healthy diet we need to take into account all of these things and you know you're saying like Oh bad bad cholesterol like I absolutely that's a big issue we eat way too much red meat and that's I think a large contributor to the amount of heart disease that we're seeing right now and I'm not denying that but to say that meat equals this this really awful thing that like I said it's the way I framed it in my video the worst thing ever that's that's jerk not true there are health benefits to eating meat and there are downsides to eating meat they're all health benefits the fact that bacon it contains b12 it contains but that's not a high benefit that's a nutrient you can get it from a supplement why would you consume meat which causes heart disease when you can just get it from a supplement that's a health benefit that's a nutrient get a nutrient this is beneficial to your health yeah and you know Big Macs have b12 so are you saying Big Macs have nutrition benefits like you're taking things out of context well we are taking things out of context no I'm not yes you are in your opinion I do have to ask this is it impossible to be healthy eating meat no not just like it's impossible you just said like what you can just I'm sorry I know it's happening here there's there's a difference between something being in healthy and of itself and being able to consume some level of an unhealthy thing while still being a generally good health okay so a cigarette is not healthy but you could smoke some amount and not be in bad health this is also why the health environment or why they held arguments environmental arguments they push to a very restricted kind of meat intake but not necessarily all the way to need this why the ethics are so important and we really should get on that I mean I am curious why you guys think it's okay to stack that's that's really my core question here why that's something needlessly to stab yeah Staffing to have animals needlessly slit their throats opens that's how animals are killed well I would actually like to address what you call it B I think it was fourth why not my video um you want some flat hard water - let her finish what her say was you wanted to address what the quality's a topic change but well actually you're bringing up people like to bring up the fact that I address the ethical concerns of veganism in my video and that relates to the fourth point of my video oh you're right I'm sorry the fourth one is percentage one that is my back so yeah yeah so yeah that that's what I just wanted to bring up because I know both of you like in your responses address that thing and I think the first thing I would like to say is that in my video the main the point that I was making number four is especially explicitly that not understanding hierarchies of sentience or intelligence and in that in that part of my video I explicitly mentioned that you can still if you want to make an ethical argument for not eating meat you can still do so with acknowledging sentience hierarchies or intelligence hierarchy but might not all the time you don't do right I already know be in complete look at my favorite law like getting it with them concrete pin yes right and those those are the biggest I was addressing I mentioned explicitly we can still have a conversation about the morality of eating meat if we acknowledge you know hierarchies of intelligence but um it's not very good exactly you're misrepresenting what now that is that is almost ever Batum quota what I knew that we can still have that conversation I I specifically said we can still have that conversation but it's harder it's hard to talk about this issue with those vegans who don't recognize that this well you're with to begin to use so what's happened conversation I mean why would it be okay I'm Lexie vegans I'm with two vegans who made response videos about my video and so so I would like to address that and I think you know where a lot of vegans are saying like oh but you attacked vegan stance on sentience I didn't attack vegan stance on sentience I said that I I said that I thought you could make an argument for it but I had an issue with people who were like saying that you know all life is equal and you know that I don't know I'm misrepresenting you we said in your own video what you said was you don't you don't find anything wrong with killing and eating a chicken or a fish you do have a problem you said that you can bring up the point that pigs are as as if not more intelligent than dogs and you can add a case there for not harming like pigs so you're misrepresenting what you said you might cry off of things I left I'm today you weren't trying to say that we have to acknowledge sentient hierarchies you said that we should create a sort of baseline for dog intelligence and there's an argument for any animal that's as intelligent as a dog to have a right to life I never said that I never said that you're trying to argue against not what I've actually said you're what there's like a range no I'm not because these these distinctions are important because what's happening is that you're twisting my argument into something I never said I said because like for example bringing like relating to the fact that I said we can still have a debate on the ethics of eating animals with the knowledge that there aren't hierarchies so thank you - why do you think as to why I hated chickens right sorry I brought up the point about how pigs are smarter than dogs but we don't eat dogs but we commonly Pig so I think if I were a vegan there would be an argument to be made for not eating - that's not me saying that we shouldn't eat pigs or that's a baseline for intelligence of not eating it's dogs that's me trying to understand the vegan perspective and explaining how even if we do adhere to hierarchies of intelligence of sentience we can still have those conversations that with me providing an example of still being able to have those conversations and how acknowledging hierarchies could actually lend itself to perhaps even more productive vegan arguments ok so why do you think it's ok for chickens throws oh hold on I I think the way this conversation continued productive as if we actually talked about the ethics Java the talk about talking about the ethic yes thank you for I want to do that now how about do that well I would okay but I would first like I mean I would just like to clarify in this set I you know people are saying in my video and I'm getting attacked for this that I was trying to debunk the ethical stance of veganism which I hope not how was I do absolutely where you argued that there let me I'm trying to find the exact quote seven minutes 59 seconds into your video but for me probably the biggest reason I'm not vegan is that I don't believe the animals are intelligent or sentient enough for it to be kin akin to murder to eat them right yet you don't think that suggesting that you are trying to refute the ideology that it's wrong to cause the suffering and death of sentient beings I'm not trying to refute anything I'm explaining why I'm not vegan and I knew that was an issue that would come up dire chicken yeah that's exactly the same thing as trying to refute the ideology ideological principles of veganism you're trying to justify your point of view that's trying to refute logical as employees she's saying that she does not consider killing an animal for meat to be the same as murder murder human yeah and you you can see we don't either does anybody and we don't either so what do you mean by calling it murder you said murder if Amanda's murder is to animals kill each other republics but animal doesn't have a bank happy day off there's a retirement of moral agency yeah there's very tactical on a microsecond the definition of murder is the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another so it's mostly it's also brutal killing there's unnecessary killing me just read the other definition no no that's fine I'm just there are there are none anthropocentric definitions for the word murder yes and what I mean I'm always Blair here actually let's not let's not talk about talking about it let's just do you guys do you think it's okay to stab okay to that that's that's where I'm at do you guys think that's alright if you're doing it for meat I have no problem with a fig being killed if you don't electric out while you're no yeah excuse me you have unless they have other sources easily accessible to non survival situation I still I still don't see an issue with it it is one and it's not about someone okay say but you do see a problem with murdering a human for food right yes yes so here's why that's not largely consistent unless you can actually spell out a difference humans and animals which is present in humans and stedy mammals would make it okay to do this for humans then you're proposing two different standards for two different creatures and you're not actually differentiating them in a way that would make the standard applies either at present in either so that is a double standard that is sorry I do here at least that could you repeat that one more time absolutely if you're going to say that it's okay look if you're going to say that it's okay to murder one creature but it's not okay to do it together you're saying humans that you shouldn't tell a human for food you it's fine to kill an animal permute then if you don't want that to be a double standard you need to differentiate those two systems you need to point out what it is about animals which if true of humans would make it okay to murder them needlessly for food so is it that they're less intelligent well if humans were less intelligent would it be okay to kill them needlessly for food I don't think so is it that they don't have a future concept well if I mean assuming that's even true if humans didn't have a future concept what is the occasion murder then needlessly for food so unless you can actually ethically differentiate humans and animals in a way that would make the treatment justify for either if either of them so that's the difference then you're proposing a double standard sure well to address that and I would just also like to clarify again in terms of my video this is was not in the scope of what I intended and you know just to again defend my video one more time I think it was fine and didn't necessarily have to lead to a discussion about this but you know to talk about this so when we look at why it's okay to eat plants and everyone on the planet will pretty much agree that it's okay to eat plants even the most dedicated vegan versus not humans so in your in your opinion either Richard or ask yourself why is it okay to eat plants but not animals because plants are sentient and they cannot feel suffering okay

[NonZeroSum]

come on like that really that's pretty obvious the onion if the thing can't stop or if it has no experience of life I mean you're not one of the people who think plants are sentient sorry no but so to go yeah no no I'm not but to go off of what Richard said it's ok to eat plants because they're not sentient and they can't they can't suffer feel pain so you know right there were already establishing an ability distinguish between lives right because both animals are animals and plants we're both they're both alive and from that statement and of itself we've already established that yes it is ok to distinguish between what lives are more valuable than others in our search yes ok so just just establishing that is ok to have that distinction now Richard you mentioned suffering pain and sentience as reasons why animals are not ok to be eaten but plants are there are actually some animals like oysters and mussels for instance that are not sentient in any way shape or form there are essentially biological automatons that react to stimuli okay there's actually there's actually a lot of debate among there for way to kill chickens pigs cattle fish lately yeah a snapper here though you can you can say you say it now if you'd like this yeah I just want to talk about insects and oysters and all be like questionable cases and gray areas but we need to be on the same page with the basis I mean let's just talk about cows is it okay to stab a cow to death well actually I'm trying to make the argument that it is okay to keep that a cow to death if you plan on eating it okay that's not image this you wouldn't accept having a human death and you can't ethically differentiate a cow from a human in a way I'm on the way I'm on way to differentiating that I would sir I think I think roaming should make the case about how and I argue I'm talking about oysters oysters afterwards let's talk about yeah go on cows or pigs or something like I mean I was doing an idea I'm establishing a framework for this argument so yeah we're we've already established that yes it is okay to you know to differentiate between types of life so now the question becomes you know at what point like how do we differentiate in Richard nicotine is through suffering sentience and log pain yeah and like I mentioned the fort that's not even consistent among all animals and you know like like I said Ulster they're actually being oysters is in keeping with the spirit of veganism it's not necessarily the letter because of you know there's there's no suffering there's no lack of sentience and you know the the reason why we and to just to clarify vegans don't have issues with let's say lions eating a zebra because it's part of the natural order is that correct well they don't have moral agency and they need to do it to survive you do not need me to survive you're lacking the cell biology here let's just be clear we do recognize that suffering we had some kind of God London you could wave along to make nature not harm itself then I mean sure we would obviously want to eliminate that suffering but currently there's just no tangible way to do that with humans killing animals needlessly it's like yeah we can just not eat their corpses problems all but I mean to to establish a framework of whether whether or not it is acceptable with you would you describe a lion eating a zebra as akin to the lion murdering the zebra just like it would then eating it like it would be a no because they don't have moral agency and they need to do it to survive well I'm going to throw that right back at you I mean it a lion eat the human you consider that murder yes actually and that's that's what I was about to to get at the reason why I find human life special in and of itself and it has nothing to do with like the natural order is because of what is lost when we kill a human right and that you know that is something that as humans we usually agree transcends the naturalistic you know state of things killing someone is wrong and even though it would be completely keeping within keeping like within nature for a lion to kill a more human we still would say that it's wrong and want to stop it because we value human life and now the question becomes why do we value human life right and to me it has to do with a lot of things that have to do with the fact that we are more intelligent we we are centered and neural equipment you're ignoring how mushroom no I'm trying to smell as calling and you're ignoring as questions I'm just I'm trying to explain my reasoning a poor job that not get to off I was just zero in here even finish your saying but my questions be specific what is the difference between a human and a cow which if true of a human instead of cows would make it okay to stab a human to death needlessly for food it sounds actually answering it so go from me yeah so a we look at work it should be one word there should be what is it word well next to her you can't take more Angelo you know there you have to divide a difference at least in one word or several words like you don't have to make ten minute long Randal Rick you guys actually answer in the way that she can answer and Alicia waste everyone time okay well that guy just don't see angels and for unions we do a difference the point is odd is the different you guys can't acknowledge that there is a difference what are you arguing about if you acknowledge there you don't understand cows and humans why are you sitting here begging us to tell you the difference between cows and Cuba that's just your lack of choice you're not comprehending point if you want to say that it is ethically justified to stablish how to death for food but it's not actually justified to establish humans death for feet you can't just say oh they're different I could say okay well black people are dicks you need to sell it a specific difference which is true of human okay okay to do this to humans otherwise I just mean double standard what do you want difference between cows and humans I are not underestimate you I don't think your team are worth Walters there's like what's the difference I'm not you're asking apple pie man how do you buy it Oscar right now you're asking what is the difference between a cow eating there's plenty of a difference one out sports ones on four legs it's a room that it has to pale the other reads books we can talk about kind of differences we're looking for a difference which if true of humans would make it okay to treat the human in the way that you're proposing treating the couch you don't look like you're on time for my singing know what everyone thought I wanted everyone stop I want roaming to be able to answer this I want roaming just answer the question for me really quick if you can answer in one word maybe do it to appease them but if you want to give nuance afterwards do that but can you answer in one word I can already the loud and if not she is allowed to use as many roads long as she wants I can answer in like three words and that would be levels of consciousness so when we look at the difference between you know cows and humans we we have to look at things like intelligence is one thing the range of human emotions is another thing ability to appreciate art is one thing can I just interject for one second for one second can i interject for one second so you're saying that your takes pleasure is more valuable than a cow's life under doing this I'm saying that my taste pleasure combined with my need for nutrients combined with the fact that my body don't need right now for nutrients let water anti-maidan combined with the fact that my body is made for digesting mita that it is part of humans are omnivores that name 100 adaptation we've made to eat meat stays right on the fact that the fact that our stomach is able to digest me if you try to give a cow well I want safety we actually didn't have we actually do feed cows me but but if you but if you try to give it a piece of chicken its body reacts differently than ours would we have Ida patient's for both we are worse we do have allegations to but we know we can no no we hang on we we are officially classified by the politic biologists evolutionary biologist named including logical adaptation without Harriet bondage maybe she will a letter respond she's not I was just ranting at the Rainer is a foul because she's not she's not answering my question name one physiological adaptation we've made to eat meat all again American digest yet that's not as as you want to add a patient that everyone thing is not because you can digest something that does not mean it is a physiological adaptation to eat that food that is exactly what it means it means that our something on company yes yes it is our stomach contains acid there specifically sorry enzymes that are specifically able of breaking down meat the fact that we are a it's not we do not have enzymes that are specifically designed for eating meat we have enzymes that can break down protein you're doing absolute pseudoscience garbage this is not pseudoscience bank that here okay make the ends on a particular enzyme do not I'm not thank you so the fact that you don't know what you're talking about I know my experiment ends on oh well he'll learn my name the specific enzyme that allows us to digest meat okay okay okay gone that named a specific enzyme that allows us to digest me I am NOT cannot do that then you are not hitting you don't know what you're muttering I am NOT I'm not a I'm not a biologist and I don't plan to keep no shit and I have never claimed to be but the thing is when you ask biologists what they say is that we are we are omnivores okay so nine that a name the one physiological adaptation we've made to eat meat well I want to thank you if you've researched these biologists then name name the biologist well why why they say that okay let her name it mutter naming one thing is that you have to look at it in the context of what we are we we don't have the teeth of a herbivore we don't have it we have the teeth yep keep structure similar to on the board no I don't well no we don't so our people and our import route are you sorry saying canine so and I also just want to return my initial question because your answer wasn't adequate I said it's level consciousness what I did I did want and sorry we got sidetracked that's okay that's in ORS look I'm just saying what the answer you provided at the time maybe you'll have another here you'll add on to it well yes I would like that is just one second as level of consciousness right do you think that it's okay to stab to death and consume humans who have the level of consciousness of Taos you're talking some retarded person they're mobile they can solve basic problems not much complex cognition is it okay to stab that person to death for create needlessly and if you're gonna say no then you can't appeal to that level of sentience to just by doing it to a cow without creating a double standard because we very not consider your answer that you too much can you what answer that to everyone sorry ranting go ahead we I haven't let you talk you're fine you're you're taking a specific abnormality of humans and comparing it to killing a cow well whatever lower ranking officer I don't know what you mean what you mean a specific abnormality okay you're saying that in order to to make your thing work you're making a you're you talking about a retarded person my thing towards us you know what I'm talking about my thing is very loose I'm saying look if you're going to he'll consent and you're not going to say it's okay to stab human of the same level of segments then that's not consistent you're saying this level of sentience justifies needless murder in one case but not be able to that's a double standard that's the definition of a double can well first off it's not healthy for chemo other humans so I think that is like LCD want that don't feel with that difference it were healthy what is he okay well actually let me get back to why I think cows and humans are different so we have things like intelligence which you know intelligence varies from person to person we are still all smarter you're not only a murderer Harrison saying hey hey we are all better to get that's that's one thing and like I said the ability to have a full range of human emotions that is something that is present in even people who are developmentally dysfunctional or you know developmentally departed we can't hire you you think that full range of human emotions saying it was full I mean I don't know but I haven't looked at any of it like I mean I wouldn't expect a severely retarded person to have the same range of emotions as a normal human being they did I mean they still have a much higher range of animals if we look at the emotions that animals are capable of human again animal people love feeling even Cape Verdean even someone who is retarded that is capable of feeling ill not comparable second we also have a sense of ethics and justice we also have a check a sense of being able to picture ourselves in another person's situation the ability to empathize and that has to do with the fact that we are able to look at only only chimpanzees I don't know animals no no no animals empathize you know it's not know they cannot know a scout or any absolutely can they cannot say absolutely is not all animals can answer I lost not all house absolutely can have inherent others deaths they mourn each other's deaths they love for their own children love a lot of love in mourning is not is not emphasizing when you emphasize you know when you empathize with someone you're picturing yourselves in their shoes you are making a hypothetical or like imaginary situation for yourself and wondering Wow what if that was right because that's what empathy is and you know to be able to do that requires a higher level of reasoning than cows are capable of it is it is found in some animals so therefore so static 702 death yeah when brain we take into account all of these differences the fact that you know we let's just go the lighter and we're going to have a harem on ice and everything okay I confess but in really quick I think the case woman's trying to make it I'm only saying this because I think it's seated and it's hard for it to come across is that it's not just one thing or as I write I've wanted her to answer in one word it's a combination of all of these things put together right so if a human were retarded and had the intelligence and sentence of a cow you would agree with killing that retarded person for food yes there's a swell of person at all cages where we're eating a double standard not a good one what I really can't talk at the same time that's just not gonna work I know it's my question let me just clarify here um look just Larry summed it up as one specific difference it can be a fetid difference just be clear but we should still go to one by one and look at I mean you're saying you're saying a emotional range so let's say that a human has their emotional range reduced to that how is it okay to stab them to death needlessly for food it's not that's a double standard no it's not because again we're looking at things as as a whole the reason why we don't eat the human species and the reason why we value human life after more important than any other animal item is because of all these things that make up our Connor normally the cooler thing is just because reason evaluates more than blacks is just because of all of these things that make us different like no you guys all know what you have all the specifics I didn't sound an application or good oh let's go to one by one so first that you talked about was what range you you first said intelligence they said range of emotion you know cousin both of human reduce in intelligence and range of emotion to that account is it okay to stab them to death needlessly no and the thing is that these are connected it keeps a Kalimantan will just see when you find one that doesn't create a double standard okay that's also fine but something else we need to understand is that you know when we talk about like why is it okay it's just now I'm not saying and I don't think ranting monkey is saying this either that it is okay to just go around stabbing cows like when we were talking about me I'm sorry right for food and not is that difference - so you're stabbing the human four feet right but like I said we we shouldn't eat humans not just for ethical reasons so its cannibalism cannibalism is something that no if it were healthy yeah so let's say it's healthy let's say we're having an emotional a smaller emotional range less intelligence and it's healthy is it okay to stab experience that needlessly for poop if it were healthy if this magical person realize that is here it you're you're creating hypothetic I don't even proven that meat is healthy so you're eager to do to guys because I think we should do I think I should give each person or just roaming another person so 30 seconds to make the case and then the other person three seconds I put my timer on because the talking over each other is not productive and I think this could be a highly effective conversation how does that sound yep Andrew don't Bruce Cheaney okay so let me vote so roaming millennial agreed that cholesterol saturated fat is unhealthy it causes heart disease she said that vegans need to supplement vitamin k2 and she she said well the article she referenced stated that foods high in vitamin k2 our egg yolks milk cheese liver beef and chicken these are all foods that are high in saturated fat and cholesterol so you are creating double standards for yourself what you're saying conflicts you your statements constantly conflict with each other first you won't admit that meat causes hardly that you'll admit that individual nutrient constituents of meat cause heart disease then you were came out heart disease causing foods I never said that he doesn't cause heart disease somewhere makes one health wait no robbing after 30 seconds though roaming Hansen thirty seconds go roaming are we talking about 30 seconds of like what are we arguing here because his his responding wait beyond I thought it was just a general point well yeah I thought it was not right now oh well I thought I thought we were talking about wrong is all your finger as in the Domus Aurea what's all that Romano and you know what you know what ultimately she has to prove that eating meat is healthy that is the basis of her argument she is claiming that it's ethical to kill sentient beings because we need meat for our health and Richard what I think maybe you guys aren't understanding is that she might need more than five seconds to make that point so she might oh no go ahead go ahead excellent okay roaming I think you could just respond to that point them okay so why is eating meat healthy there are there are sources of meat like beef that are not healthy that can be very high in cholesterol but also it depends on how its processed and obviously something that this process will be more unhealthy than something that's not but when you talk about things like really high cholesterol level you're not looking at the full range of biodiversity that lends itself to animal flesh right so yeah I have no issues with claiming that something like salmon is definitely healthy it's full of healthy you know I know it rate has cholesterol to the point where it causes atherosclerosis it's filled with designee and our mental pollutants it has it is high in saturated fat and cholesterol and it raises your serum cholesterol and there is a direct relationship between your serum cholesterol and your risk of heart disease I think those are you agree the higher your risk of heart disease so you're admitting that salmon is unhealthy I'm not admitting that famine in and of itself is unhealthy I think the less you agree everyone hold on hold on hold on I think both of you agree here but there are both the benefits and pitfalls to eat me I don't think you guys disagree with that I really don't yeah well she still hasn't made an argument for why fish is healthy and safe to consume well I think she has I think she's mentioned rosin yes she's mentioned what collagen is increasing in I can get person from lentils why is fish healthy being able to get a thing from another source doesn't mean that the meat source isn't a source of nutrition that ain't your argument is that yeah well saturated fat or cholesterol they don't cause heart Vidhan and it wasn't funny but now they don't want to be like they have fatty acids right yeah well you know what omega-3 fatty acids don't protect your heart health they have benefits for brain function but fish are also contaminated with shit like mercury because I have effects on your heart health and brain functions that a jellyfish guys the difference is Richard is harping on the positive effects and seems to be leaning more towards the negative and that's where you guys are sticking it I think both of you can see it's sort of positives and negatives to eating salmon I don't know no no no no no the issue is you have to look at the entire effect this food has yes salmon has mega threes which are good for you but it also has saturated fat and cholesterol so obviously the most logical thing to do is to look for a source of omega-3 that does not contain saturated fat or cholesterol so things like chia seed hemp seeds flax seeds those have omega-3s you can also take an LG base DHA supplement which has absolutely no environmental pollutants like mercury PCBs that are found in salmon so why are you saying salmon is healthy when it has a datafiles salmon is is healthy it has a way of one fatty apple that boy those are good fats instead of bad fats no that doesn't make it healthy again you're ignoring the nutritional pitfalls it contains saturated fat and cholesterol your open rooms it doesn't wait it doesn't have fat I hope you guys got that I'll see you in a minute okay I'm actually well on we're probably going to be meeting to n Singh but yeah we're going to close it soon but let me say that roaming could you concede that the alternatives that Richard mentioned are healthier than salmon perhaps because it does eliminate B negative effects with salmon um like if there were if there was something that would like in and of itself have all of the benefits of salmon with none of the negative side effects like as as one thing what enhancers that yeah that one thing like again if they all have like flax seeds like chia seeds hang on hey if like you could find some that had all of it then yeah I would consider that what that would be helped know what and why mango food would have to have every single nutritional benefit no why does one know - how can i we're looking at all of the benefits that salmon contains like ammonia which is virtually because it does have a lot of benefits to your house isn't like what those things that I just may want to name one name one name X how does that okay and how does that high in protein what does that matter you don't fish is the highest source of dietary methionine next to egg whites Messiah 9 is a sulfur-containing amino acid it directly feeds certain forms of cancer and this is actually how dogs can detect cancer in the skin Messiah 9 dependent cancers release gas its gaseous sulphur compounds soma thionite directly feeds certain forms of cancer and also of methionine plays a role in raising igf-1 levels which is also another risk for cancer you know no cholesterol and saturated fat itself also feeds certain forms of cancer breast and prostate cancer are especially affected by saturated fat and cholesterol they actually use cholesterol to grow and survive and proliferate and if you reduce the cholesterol in your diet you actually cause death of cancer cells certain for cancers so well known is and oh yeah I'd like you to nothing here's the thing you're you're acting as if you know okay yeah fish has this okay yeah fish has this benefit but therefore these other things also have it therefore fish is unhealthy the thing is when we look and this is a study that I was before when we look at comparing rates of heart disease and things like well in chronic so many of they're running to control for the right content and I'm gonna move on well actually I think then we need to finish it's been down yet when we when we look at different populations one eating meat products one not eating meat products when the the rates of chronic illness are compared but both of these populations experience rates that are cut in half from the average meat-eating probably doesn't give a crap about their health Curson so you know being you say like Oh Simon contains this which can do this which to me this is and then cancer like people eat salmon because has any lowest note vegans have the lowest risk of cancer out of any population even when compared to healthy populations of meat-eaters that eat the same amount of fruits and vegetables that is an absolute fact vegan diets have special protective benefits especially against hormone related cancers like breast and prostate cancer you're just spewing pseudoscience and on time I'm not you know you know what you know what you know what I haven't had any American scientifically true no you know no the adding Diabetes Association the American Diabetes Association conducted a study they compared vegans with all other diet groups including semi vegetarians who consumed meat less than once per week but more than once per month so about 2 to 3 times per month vegans had half the risk of diabetes I like that nobody watching on tonight and then we have to do closing statement because it has been an hour so just response to that specifically really clearance day I never said that you're trying to make it seem like I've said that vegans cannot be healthy I said the exact opposite in my video and I've never claimed that they can't be healthy if you argue you're trying to argue that meat is healthy and you haven't done that you haven't demonstrated I'm really nice if you if you want to see your reason why I like meat is healthy and you can honestly just Google you'll see tons but it's really like you did I should look at bullshit online blogs like you did that are biased anything I've provided in my paper that are no no no don't be mad when I go back is really accurate provided no medical when he provided no medical journals online fucking blogs written by random idiot is not very well but what what they what they wrote was sourced by Lobby open technically I'll give you an example I'll give you an example use you used some weird online resource that said white meat has a benefit because it has vitamin k2 the article you referenced recommended eating heart disease causing foods like egg yolks milk cheese liver beef and chicken so you live in particular and enough beef and chicken when eaten in modern when eaten when not in moderation it means like 2 to 5 times per month which increases your diabetes risk by double okay guys honestly now we're just getting into yeah and that's not an argument for whether or not it's healthy that's an argument that you can eat so little of it to the point where it won't cause any health problems so that group it's healthy that's a completely different argument you are dishonest that okay sorry go ahead oh that is different and I are doing something completely different and you constantly I am NOT I am NOT arguing something completely different we attach to Alma sorry watch my video I've let you talk plenty well my video said specifically was that you may you might want to get a k2 supplement because it's not found in like yeah that was little Chris actually I one thing I will concede is that k2 is actually found in this I think it's called new toe it's a Japanese fermentation well that I have to apply wait that's another ridiculous time effort if you didn't even read these articles I did read these articles and the thing is clear one cow no quiet claimed that you can okay okay you pulling that you cannot get beat to vitamin k2 from vegan sources the article you linked claimed that you can get k2 from natto in the same video and now you're changing your statement so yeah he's Article III will I didn't read the article but I will do me that I did I did read the article but I you've said something completely contrary to the article you linked it mention read them the article itself I search for children the article itself meant it fermented mentioned fermented foods and I was understand assumption that that was like for supplements but there's actually the food that you can get and I will completely can see that I was wrong about like the Naruto that are not in every Cho anime but I completely can see that I was wrong about that but the thing is k2 isn't found in other other vegans producing your gut bacteria so why does recommending supplementation because the read a vision way every at which k18 atsuta science is my aunt Lee always acted your gut reaction area produces an adequate amount of k2 k2 deficient marrow incredibly rare the only way you can induce them is by giving us an extreme course of antibiotics okay okay I don't cut you off now I got to meet every one of us up okay sorry so it has been over an hour and that's this long as you wanted to go if Romy wants to a longer or you guys wheeler we can you hadn't run to a part two but we do have to swap it now closing statements from you guys if you want to do that just don't respond to each other's closest events because now just and the item or debate and y'all gave me a headache let's go we'll go with ask yourself right yeah well damn thing that I sent along and you might focus here as ethics I think that if you want to say it's okay to treat animals in a way that you're not okay Street in humans you differentiate them in a way that would make the treatment okay for either if the difference we're true of either so if you want to say you know animals are less intelligent therefore it's okay staff and death needlessly for food is it okay the same to humans of that level of intelligence if you want to say it's emotional rank it's okay to do that humans of that emotional range and if you just want to appeal to the totality of difference and just say well humans and animals are different that's not anything specific that's no different than saying oh blacks and whites are different so it's okay is that black to death needlessly you need a logically consistent basis for mistreating a creature you can't justify it with a given reason in one context and reject the exact same reason in another context okay okay ranting monkey your turn um this all started because roaming millennial made a video about how vegans behave each of her points everything that has been discussed here even when she was talking about the the nutrition in there was all around how vegans behave nobody started this as an argument against veganism neither roaming from what I know or myself have a problem with a vegan diet I have no problem if that's how people want to live their life I'm not going to do it and I don't want it preach to me which is one of the things that vegans do that drive people nuts it's okay to have a conversation about how people act and it not have anything to do with anything else you can look at how it beacon acts I'd say this is wrong and even if you're looking at a generalized sense of it and say this this is putting people off and it has nothing at all to do with the ethics of veganism okay vegan games getting yeah roaming millennial just links pseudoscience garbage to try to our view her opinion that eating meat is healthy and she uses that as the basis to as an ethical argument for the consumption of animal products she doesn't know what the hell she's talking about she randomly looks up unsourced articles online that contradict her own opinions she'll say that saturated fat and cholesterol causes heart disease but then she linked an article that recommends eating high saturated fat and cholesterol foods for vitamin k2 she just links pseudoscience garbage she doesn't know what the hell she's talking about and this is her whole basis for her entire argument you should eat meat because I don't know what the hell I'm talking about nutrition and you know what I'd love to have another debate with you where we argue about nutrition specifically because that is your fallback we need to eat meat for health reasons therefore it's okay to kill animals what's how about today I will make you look like an absolute moron okay when I stand it okay um Romain Ritter yeah sure so the video that started all this I think was kind of taken out of context and it was meant to people took it as something that I did intend for to do and maybe it's part of my fault for not being clear and clear enough but in no way was I attacking the vegan diet I do think that eating meat is part of a healthy diet when you do it in the balanced way I'm not saying that anyone should or should not be vegan I haven't had that forever terms what is the balanced diet how much can you eat and build retribution hey everybody I'll okay these are hard closing statements you didn't interrupt a single person yes we're choosing the same everybody when you're talking about you taking my diet I totally recommend you go see you nutritious listen to them is you know if you have specific health issues that you want to address and obviously take that into account when planning your diet but a vegan diet like a meeting eating diet needs to be planning you think about what you're what you're eating and there are things that human bodies need that require most are a lot of vegans needing to take supplements or the very least be very very good with planning their diets and you know I I have no intention of convincing Egan's to eat meat but I think something that I will bring up you know for my own self I think it would be wrong for an lion to eat a person and if I were to think that you know cows had a level of consciousness that have made it immoral for me to eat meat I would feel in that case morally obligated to stop cows from being eaten in the wild if it's cow how lives are really worth protecting from humans than they are worth protecting from all predators just like human lives are okay I think everyone's not in their final statement also in one non debate related things oh wait and I do concede that I was wrong about the decay to not coming from things I said Mindy hey iron ok ok let's go back vitamin A Fella comes reformed vitamin A doesn't come preformed others identity you can get vitamin A from carrots and sweet potatoes your problem man forgot that I'll see it that valued a kerosene burner it is quite adequate you don't know what the hell you're talking about I realize okay that will be per part to you and I am now using everyone if only for a few moment so everyone can calm down and roam we can think about how she wants to close up the video and now I will actually Romy you can add an additional now okay so first off Thank You Blair for moderating I think you did a good job and I especially appreciate the fact that you are waking up early because you are on the west coast which is three hours earlier so everyone big big props to Blair and you know especially since - yeah I think you did a really good job thank you for Astor self and vegan gains and ranting monkeys everyone for coming on I do think that this conversation has stopped being productive and like I said I wanted to keep things to an hour so the hour is here yeah I feel like we did get sidetracked a little bit but I hope that people enjoyed this because this is YouTube and at the end of the day we are here for you guys and I see you guys next time hope you had a good time bye