The future of pets

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Lightningman_42
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Re: The future of pets

Post by Lightningman_42 »

brimstoneSalad wrote:Anybody who suggests that most dogs can't or shouldn't eat vegan is a moron.
Or, more likely, just ignorant about dog-nutrition.

Today I got into an argument with my dad about whether or not it's healthy for a dog to consume vegan dog-food. He asked whether or not I would even consider it moral to own a dog because I would need to buy meat for the dog. This is of course a false dichotomy (either have a dog and buy meat for it, or don't have a dog). I said that if I ever adopt a dog of my own that I could feed it vegan dog-food. He then had a disgusted look on his face and said, "well then I sincerely hope that you never have a dog of your own." I tried to explain that dogs are capable of digesting plant-derived foods and that it doesn't matter what the sources of an animal's nutrition are so long as all of it's nutritional needs are met.

Unfortunately he's not easy to convince. The idea of a dog eating vegan is not something he's used to, and I don't think he wants to believe it's possible.

Does anyone have access to demonstrable scientific consensus (that they can show me) confirming that vegan dog foods are in fact adequate for dogs' nutritional needs? I would like to have some strong evidence to support my claims, if I ever again get into a discussion about vegan dog-food. If however there is no strong evidence that vegan dogs can be healthy, then I won't try to argue that it is. Intellectual honesty is important to me. I want to be able to convince people that vegan dogs can be healthy, but I won't talk out of my @$$ (making assertions that I can't defend).
Last edited by Lightningman_42 on Fri Nov 13, 2015 12:25 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Lightningman_42
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Re: The future of pets

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Slightly different (but similar) topic: After I told my dad that vegan dog-food can be nutritionally adequate, he then argued that if this is true, it would still be immoral to feed a dog a vegan diet.

Dogs apparently enjoy meat and meaty-treats so much that they would become dreadfully miserable, if they were fed an adequate vegan diet, because it's not enjoyable for them. Vegan dog treats+food likely could not ever be made to be enjoyable to dogs. Because of this...

...feeding dogs vegan, and not confining+hurting+killing farm animals to feed to the dogs...

...is morally worse than confining+hurting+killing farm animals to feed to the dogs.


I'd like to know your (anyone reading this) thoughts on his moral argument against feeding dogs vegan. If you have dogs of your own whom you feed vegan, do they seem to enjoy it? Are they vigorous, playful, and generally happy animals?

@ Jebus: I believe you've said in the past that you have 5 (or is it 6?) vegan dogs. What are they like? Do you have any concerns about their nutritional well-being? How would you react to ignorant claims that your dogs are miserable and/or malnourished?
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Jebus
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Re: The future of pets

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ArmouredAbolitionist wrote:@ Jebus: I believe you've said in the past that you have 5 (or is it 6?) vegan dogs. What are they like? Do you have any concerns about their nutritional well-being? How would you react to ignorant claims that your dogs are miserable and/or malnourished?
We are up to 7 now. Six was supposed to be the maximum but we found a dog crawling on the side of the road with no use of his back legs. The dragging had opened up big sores on his lower back and tail so we didn't feel like we had a choice. Anyways, the dogs give us a tremendous amount of pleasure in return for our efforts. There is nothing I'd rather do on my day off than drink beer, listen to music, and play with the dogs.

Recently we brought the dogs to a vet and he commented on how healthy they look. A look of disbelief came across his face when I told him they were vegan. Other vets have argued with me that dogs are towards the carnivorous end of the omnivore spectrum and that they cannot be healthy without meat. We had four dogs when we switched them to a vegan diet a few years ago. One of our dogs had had a skin problem that we had struggled with for quite some time. This went away almost immediately after we changed his diet. Another one had a foul smelling flatulence problem. This also went away completely. Hence, I have no concerns whatsoever and have become very used to ignorant claims that dogs need meat to be healthy.
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Lightningman_42
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Re: The future of pets

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Thank you for your reply. Nice to hear that your dogs are so happy and healthy!
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: The future of pets

Post by brimstoneSalad »

ArmouredAbolitionist wrote:Does anyone have access to demonstrable scientific consensus (that they can show me) confirming that vegan dog foods are in fact adequate for dogs' nutritional needs?
It's not just scientific consensus, but veterinary consensus in the West that "dogs can be vegan, cats can't" -- it seems to be taught in veterinary school when they learn about pet nutrition -- not entirely true of cats since there are specialized cat foods, but cats are more difficult and some of the foods available are questionable.

For dogs, it's fully mainstream and vets even prescribe vegetarian diets for some health problems (this is something your vet should know about).

Here's a prescription one made by purina (a really big brand):

http://www.chewy.com/dog/purina-pro-pla ... Al458P8HAQ
Product Description
Food sensitive dogs can benefit from Purina Pro Plan Veterinary Diets HA Hydrolyzed Canine Formula, a unique vegetarian dog food that features simple proteins and low-allergen carbohydrates designed to minimize the risk of food allergic reactions. It offers dietary benefits that provide optimal nutrition while meeting your adult dog's or growing puppy's special needs.

Key Benefits

Vegetarian formula
Single hydrolyzed protein source
Single low-allergen carbohydrate source
Highly digestible
NOTE: A prescription from your veterinarian is required to order this food. This product will not be shipped until a copy of a valid prescription authorization is faxed to 786-528-6088 or e-mailed to rx@chewy.com.

Purina Veterinary Diet is changing to Purina Pro Plan Veterinary Diet. Customers may receive old packaging during this transition.
The D-3 probably isn't vegan, but it could easily be (vegan D-3 is available).

Any veterinarian who questions whether dogs can eat vegan should not be considered credible. It's a much more reasonable question to ask for cats.

ArmouredAbolitionist wrote:I'd like to know your (anyone reading this) thoughts on his moral argument against feeding dogs vegan. If you have dogs of your own whom you feed vegan, do they seem to enjoy it? Are they vigorous, playful, and generally happy animals?
It's a terrible argument. He doesn't know what dogs like, he's just trying to make excuses.

As far as behavioral evidence goes, dogs love veggies, beans, fatty things, sweet things, they love garlic (but can't eat much of it). Dogs just love to eat things.
Vegan dogs foods are formulated to be delicious for them.
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Lightningman_42
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Re: The future of pets

Post by Lightningman_42 »

brimstoneSalad wrote:For dogs, it's fully mainstream and vets even prescribe vegetarian diets for some health problems (this is something your vet should know about).

Here's a prescription one made by purina (a really big brand):

http://www.chewy.com/dog/purina-pro-pla ... Al458P8HAQ

Product Description
Food sensitive dogs can benefit from Purina Pro Plan Veterinary Diets HA Hydrolyzed Canine Formula, a unique vegetarian dog food that features simple proteins and low-allergen carbohydrates designed to minimize the risk of food allergic reactions. It offers dietary benefits that provide optimal nutrition while meeting your adult dog's or growing puppy's special needs.

Key Benefits

Vegetarian formula
Single hydrolyzed protein source
Single low-allergen carbohydrate source
Highly digestible
NOTE: A prescription from your veterinarian is required to order this food. This product will not be shipped until a copy of a valid prescription authorization is faxed to 786-528-6088 or e-mailed to rx@chewy.com.

Purina Veterinary Diet is changing to Purina Pro Plan Veterinary Diet. Customers may receive old packaging during this transition.
Thank you! :)
brimstoneSalad wrote:He doesn't know what dogs like, he's just trying to make excuses.

As far as behavioral evidence goes, dogs love veggies, beans, fatty things, sweet things, they love garlic (but can't eat much of it). Dogs just love to eat things.
You'd think he would know what dogs like, considering that our family dog (a 14-year-old mutt) is the epitome of a nonpicky omnivorous dog, obsessed with food, who will eat anything edible.

We're talking about a dog who loves to eat carrots, cucumbers, bell-peppers, and fennel. He will immediately lie down and relentlessly beg for them when he hears them being chopped in the kitchen. He likes all manner of fruits, veggies, bread; even lettuce, chicken-shit, and rotten oatmeal. I'm not saying that he should eat those last two, but only that he has in the past. He loves food and is not picky. I would hope that vegan dog foods can convincingly mimic the flavours of their meaty counterparts. If they can, then I don't think that my dog would be miserable on an adequate vegan diet.
"The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil but because of those who look on and do nothing."
-Albert Einstein
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