Philosophical Vegan Forum

Just because hunting your own meat may be cheaper, it still doesn't make it healthy. Who wants all that gross animal fat in their body?! NOT ME!
GO VEGAN!

Thanks for the post!

Joel.LM wrote:brimstoneSalad pointed out that this is an infrastructure problem. He is right, and I agree with him, but it still does not change the fact that it is a problem. A problem that still hasn't been solved, that probably wont be solved for a long time (We all know how difficult it is to have government make meaningful, necessary changes.).

I don't just mean government infrastructure, but local and personal infrastructure. There's no need to wait on the government to be able to survive there sustainably for pennies a day.

First, more traditionally, consider: Does anybody up there have greenhouses? Light is sparse, but shouldn't be impossible to grow if moose have enough to eat. With a few reflectors, and using waste heat from local infrastructure, one could grow a wider range of plants too.
Of course, it would take a ridiculously large series of greenhouses to feed a family, but it might be a good way to supplement food supply with some fast growing veggies and some tasty fruit and herbs.

More importantly: There's also potential for local food processing.
Little known fact: Grass is actually very nutritious if you process it. The fiber is too much for humans to handle or chew, but even many hardy species can yield juice which is rich in protein and minerals. Then dry the bricks of left over fiber for fuel, or for fungiculture in a warm cellar (Mushrooms don't even need light, just an adequately warm room, and with insulation that's a simple matter).

We're talking some hard core mechanical grinding and pressing, but a small amount of machinery could easily serve a family well for obtaining good nutrition from foraged plants.

That said, a diet of grass juice isn't exactly delicious, but that's another matter (or, perhaps it's an acquired taste?).
This would also solve the water issue.

...Mushrooms are delicious though. An they just need a good cellulose source and a place to grow.

Joel.LM wrote:The cost of the hunt, Let see, well the guns, 800$ but you have paid that off after your first hunt,

Hardcore juicers are also in that range: http://www.amazon.com/Samson-Super-Juic ... B00B6RJCE6

You can also go really serious: http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/h ... .64.qzQXSu

The mechanisms are simple enough that a machine shop (or somebody with the tools) would be able to make a juicer too, in support of local economy.

Joel.LM wrote:So the problem still remains, thus these people do not currently have the means to go Vegan.

I would say there are ultimately means, but perhaps not knoweldge enough to employ them.

Joel.LM wrote:Water delivery (which meant water rationing), Wood heat, unstable power (which meant Oil lamps and candles), an outhouse, and Long winters with no way out.

It's better to use pyrolysis of waste material, then burn the resulting gas for local industry. Wood, oil, candles; these are all terrible for the lungs.

Another personal infrastructure issue.

Joel.LM wrote:Growing up, we would try and do two shops, one when the road would clear up and we would stock up for the summer and another one during fall just before the winter. As I said, food would come from 24hrs away, trucked up or flown up, but that meant that the food in the grocery stores was already more expensive then southern Canada, transportation cost where taxed on, then of course the grocery store would place a markup on it. At the end of the day, we would be a good 50-70% more expensive then Quebec.

What was the cost of dry beans?

I would have contacted some farms, and my neighbors, and arranged a coop. One person with a truck could bring in enough beans directly from a farm to last several families a year or two.

You don't have to be subject to the whims of local economy.

If we're talking beans, you need about 1 lb a day of dry beans. Around 300 lb a year per person. A personal pickup truck could easily make that haul. That would be, at worst, $600 a year per person, plus the gas for the drive divided by how much you were able to haul.

That should by no means be unattainable to anybody with even basic employment.

Joel.LM wrote:A moose on average yields about 900lb of meat, this is net weight. Now comparing it to pork price your looking at about 1800$. all this would fit nice and neat in a chest freezer. In comparison i don't think im fitting 900lb of potatoes in my freezer. Just want to make a note here that, we would not keep 900lb to our self, often it would get distributed to other members of the community who were unable to hunt.

Pork and potatoes are both poor comparisons to a realistic vegan diet for that situation. Pork is more expensive and hard to store, and potatoes are both hard to store, and not very nutritious (mostly water and carbs, very low in minerals, vitamins, and protein) -- people can't subsist on mainly potatoes.

The best comparison is to lentils.

Lentils are 25% protein by dry weight, lots of fiber, loaded with nutrition, and cheaper than pork, stores almost indefinitely without refrigeration as long as you keep them dry and away from pests.

For 900 lb of lentils, you would be looking at something like $1000 - $1400 retail, but you'd also save on refrigeration, and all of the costs associated with hunting.

Joel.LM wrote:time, Usually 24hrs.
Prepping, Cutting, storing excluding the bleeding, curing, smoking or drying, usually gets done in 8-12hrs.

That's a lot of work. Something like four man-days total? Call that something like $400 value in time.

Joel.LM wrote:Over all, even with the time put in, Much cheaper then purchasing from a grocery store or local farmer.

So it's probably between $600 - $1000 cheaper than lentils, considering only the time investment.

What's the wattage of your freezer, and how long do you store it for?

I've found, for chest freezers, it's around 218 kWh a year for a 10.6 cubic foot unit.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-10-6-cu-f ... oCYWvw_wcB

I've found the density of meat, tightly packed, is about 55 lbs per cubic foot. So you need about 1.5 freezers. About 330 kWh a year.

Now that wouldn't be very much if you were talking cheap grid electricity, but if you're talking gasoline generator, with crazy high gas prices, that could add up. You could be dealing with 50 cents per kWh, which would add another $165 to the bill.

It's probably cheaper than the man-hour cost of curing everything (you said that was excluded from the above, right?)

That's only $435 to $835 cheaper.

But that's also not a fair comparison, because you said you gave away a lot of it in trade too?
How much did you give away?

And, that's not considering the potential to order in some serious bulk, which is much cheaper:

http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/C ... 5.1.uZEcUM

Only $550 - $700 a ton.
They last two years.
Worst case that's 32 cents a pound.

That's only $286 for your 900 lb.

Now the mere man-hours in meat preparation are more expensive than just buying the lentils.
Shipping is another consideration, but if we're talking about the minimum order bulk (if you can get 15 families together), the shipping cost would be divided by 30 (15 families for two years).

Shipping could be $8,000 and you'd still save money on labor and refrigeration.

So, if done properly (in a small coop), I don't believe that meat -- even hunting -- would really be cheaper than lentils.

Yes, if you go through retail, at least in the short term, it would seem to be. But that's not even the only cost.

Consider the medical costs, and costs of lost life of a meat heavy diet. It's hard, but not impossible, to put numbers to that.

Take the case of a man who dies in his 60s rather than in his 90s, or suffers debilitating conditions like arthritis that prevent him from working, what is the cost of that to his family? We're talking about a potential of 30 years of lost productivity.

Is 30 years of lost life and/or productivity worth a lifetime savings of $25,000?

What about the medications, and medical bills, assuming he doesn't die at 60 and rather is just disabled for another 30 years?

That is ultimately why I say that even in the rare cases that it may be cheaper upfront, meat (even hunting) is probably a false economy because of the long term losses it causes.

As to extremely remote locations: At a certain point, when it becomes so expensive to get food somewhere (only by plane), and literally nothing will grow, and the only thing to eat is fish and seals... it might be worth considering moving.
Are these people unable to move, or simply unwilling? Their health and livelihood is suffering because of the remoteness and low standard of living.

Okay.

I'm not quite sure how to reply to this, almost anything I say will seem like a cop-out to you. The problem I have with these discussions is that people over simplify the solution and situation. You also argue as if the solutions you have mentioned haven't already been attempted.

In regards to greenhouses, yes we do have greenhouses. Can they run year round. No. Why? Temperature. -40 c is not hospitable. 4hrs of daylight is not favorable. Have their been private and government run programs to determine if it was feasible to have sustainable agriculture year round. Yes many, everything from solar/ wind greenhouses to hydroponics to aquaculture. All have hit the same wall. Lack of energy to make it cost effective. Nothing is able to keep up with power demand to supply the plants with light and heat enought to grow. ( yes led lights have been tried, plant yield were not favorable.) Their is one gentleman who grows root vegetables year round but he has a micro hydro plant. This is something that very few have access to or can afford to build.

Your moose comment made me chuckle. Moose migrate. Yes they do stick around for part of the winter, they eat tree foliage, lichen, and tree bark but they tend to move to more hospital environments.

We have a very good farming community, one that is continually trying to evolve. But like all thing, it takes time.

All your comments in regards to heating, namely pyrolysis, biomass generators. I work in the Comercial/ industrial mechanical industry, the cost are huge and the community does not produce enough wast. Yes some people have used compost as a heat source but it has been very problematic and I know of one person who has built a small scale pyrolysis system. Again not enough wast to make it functional.

Bean, ahhh yes, I'm very familiar with beans. Beans are a staple here, along with oats and other dried good. I did mention preserves as well no? Anyway you need variety and balance. Maybe look at the relationship between food and mental health. (I'm not talking about nutrition. I'm talking abouto how we interact with food as well as how the body craves diversity. I read an interesting article about this in regards to soylent and other meal replacement.)

The freezer. I did say that it gets cold here right? My freezer is unplugged 8 months out of the year. I see a 15 to 20$ dollar increase in my electric bill the other 4.

As far as meat prep goes. I was being very general. It depends on the experience of the individual. My brother in law is a butcher. With the help of one other person (usually his father) get done 4-6 pigs in a day. From gate to sectioned for processing. Someone like him could have a moose done in under a day. Me, not so much, about the time I mentioned above and it's usually a very casual easy going day.

Take the case of a man who dies in his 60s rather than in his 90s, or suffers debilitating conditions like arthritis that prevent him from working, what is the cost of that to his family? We're talking about a potential of 30 years of lost productivity.

Is 30 years of lost life and/or productivity worth a lifetime savings of $25,000?

What about the medications, and medical bills, assuming he doesn't die at 60 and rather is just disabled for another 30 years?

This is one of two that I will quote you. This section I quote because I agree with you. While until recently I didn't know what kind of impact meat had on my health it seems that science now agrees that red meat is bad for you. This information was not available while I grew up on the contrary it was encouraged and still is to eat portions of meat. Just as was normal for doctors to recommend smoking to calm the nerve or a glass of wine to pregnant women. What is obviously to us now was not always so. The beauty of hindsight. This is why I'm here. To see if my change in diet can help eliminate or alleviate my current health issues potentially cause by meat consumption? Maybe but definitely caused by a poor diet.

As to extremely remote locations: At a certain point, when it becomes so expensive to get food somewhere (only by plane), and literally nothing will grow, and the only thing to eat is fish and seals... it might be worth considering moving.
Are these people unable to move, or simply unwilling? Their health and livelihood is suffering because of the remoteness and low standard of living.

This I'm quoting because I don't know how to address this properly. This made me angry. I hope I miss understood what you wrote, I hope you are talking about people who have the means to relocate. I hope you are not talking about the inuktitut people to which I was referring to. The inuktitut have a lot of problems mostly caused by us and our ancestors. Apart from their roots and culture. They have nothing left, to ask them to relocate is like telling them to relinquish their ancestry. Unimaginable. Putting that a side 90% of them live in poverty which leads to depression, domestic abuse, drug and alcohol abuse and one of the highest suicide rates in Canada. Apart from not being able to afford a plane ticket out. The vast majority would not be able to function in today's society. They would end up on the streets, in jail or dead. I know that you don't understand because I didn't until I lived there.

Their culture was beautiful, based around family and community until we ruined it by trying to integrate them into ours.

And I'm done.

Forgive any spelling and grammar mistakes I wrote this all on my phone and I am so not going over it.

Joel.LM wrote: In regards to greenhouses, yes we do have greenhouses. Can they run year round. No. Why? Temperature. -40 c is not hospitable. 4hrs of daylight is not favorable. Have their been private and government run programs to determine if it was feasible to have sustainable agriculture year round. Yes many, everything from solar/ wind greenhouses to hydroponics to aquaculture. All have hit the same wall. Lack of energy to make it cost effective.

Modern technology in energy has one resounding conclusion: Nuclear
Nothing else is really even particularly viable where there's more sunlight, but definitely not somewhere so far from the equator.

Waste heat from power plants is a great source for hot houses that is cheap and environmentally sustainable.

I'd say the government needs to pull their "green" thumbs out of their asses, stop catering to fear mongering over nuclear power (which is actually safer than solar), and build some nuclear infrastructure up there for these people.

Of course, that's easier said than done, but that would be my proposed solution. It's a serious infrastructure investment, but one that would pay off in the long run.

That, of course, does mean waiting on the government, because all of the absurd regulations on nuclear power.

Or just build a reactor in your basement and don't tell anybody.
You probably have the requisite knowledge to build one if you're willing to go under the radar and stick it to the regulators.

Aside from that, you could use geothermal power, but again we're talking about a very high infrastructure cost for not much output.
Power can be extracted from any temperature difference, so if you dig down into the ground where it's *slightly* warmer than the air (due to thermal mass), you can create a heat exchanging system, or even extract useable electric power from the system.

There are a number of options, but the question is always economic feasibility, and most options simply are not practical.

Joel.LM wrote:Your moose comment made me chuckle. Moose migrate. Yes they do stick around for part of the winter, they eat tree foliage, lichen, and tree bark but they tend to move to more hospital environments.

If not even the moose will stick around, it's very hard to understand why people choose to move there.

-40 with only four hours of low angle sunlight is pretty severe.

Joel.LM wrote:We have a very good farming community, one that is continually trying to evolve. But like all thing, it takes time.

Well, it sounds like it's a matter of storing things up from the summer for the winter, and that the locals are getting there, right?

Joel.LM wrote:Bean, ahhh yes, I'm very familiar with beans. Beans are a staple here, along with oats and other dried good. I did mention preserves as well no?

It sounds like they basically have what they need, then.

Joel.LM wrote:Anyway you need variety and balance. Maybe look at the relationship between food and mental health.

And just need some better cook books.
There are a lot of great products that can be processed from those raw ingredients.

Modern flavorings and flavor enhancers, which are very potent (light weight) and store/travel well could also contribute to a solution for them.

I'm not as sympathetic to the "I only know a couple recipes to make with these so I'll get bored and go crazy" arguments.

Beans can easily become a dip, a soup, sprouts, sprout crackers, roasted/crunchy, baked into flatbread, miso, fermented "black" beans, tempeh. This is a food preparation issue, not a food source issue -- and it's only something that would help contribute to the local economy.

Joel.LM wrote:Just as was normal for doctors to recommend smoking to calm the nerve or a glass of wine to pregnant women. What is obviously to us now was not always so. The beauty of hindsight.

It's pretty crazy what doctors used to recommend before we had the evidence (and unfortunately, while it was amassing -- some of these studies go back some 50 years or more and were ignored because of the popular conception that meat is healthy).

Still, it's good to remember that there are economic costs to health, since it ultimately is relevant to the "meat is cheaper" argument.
I understand that some people won't see a long term cost as relevant when they're hungry this year.

Joel.LM wrote:I hope you are talking about people who have the means to relocate.

That's why I asked if they were unable to move. If somebody is unable to move (I wasn't sure if you were talking about whites, or first nation people), the government should fund their relocation and give them guaranteed income to help assimilate into society -- or fund it, and give them land where farming is easier (there's no lack of land in Canada if you consider state forest).

Joel.LM wrote:I hope you are not talking about the inuktitut people to which I was referring to. The inuktitut have a lot of problems mostly caused by us and our ancestors.

Which is why we should be obligated (or the government obligated) to help them. Either where they are by providing them power and infrastructure, or by paying for their relocation and giving them housing, or viable land.

Joel.LM wrote:Apart from their roots and culture. They have nothing left, to ask them to relocate is like telling them to relinquish their ancestry. Unimaginable.

Here is where we differ.

1. Moving is NOT just a plane ticket out. If somebody can not obtain a job and livelihood in a new location, they can not move. If they don't know how to function in a city, they can not move. Life in the new location must be practical in order to be able to move.
If those problems were solved to enable them to move, they would no longer have nothing left -- if they were educated, subsidized, and slowly assimilated to enable a real and sustainable relocation, they would have what anybody has. You can't just relocate people who have no means to really move, that will just make it worse because they will have no idea how to function in a city like you said. That wasn't at all what I was suggesting.
If they can't move, they can't move -- that's a legitimate justification, and they need help.

2. I don't agree that moving means throwing away your ancestry and culture. They don't even have to be relocated into a city, and be forced to assimilate or die, they just need to be provided land to live somewhere close enough to modern infrastructure that can be farmed and where they can get the things they need affordably so they aren't in poverty, and so that their output (farming, or traditional crafts, etc.) can be exported and they can maintain a local GNP that will allow them to subsist.
If they were able to subsist as the Amish have in the U.S. (mainly making furniture, quits, dolls, etc.), interacting economically with the outside world to their benefit, but apart from it to their discretion, that would seem to be favorable to the current state of affairs.

Joel.LM wrote:Apart from not being able to afford a plane ticket out. The vast majority would not be able to function in today's society. They would end up on the streets, in jail or dead. I know that you don't understand because I didn't until I lived there.

That IS being unable to move.
They need our help to move, which means having the means to survive and even thrive in the new location too. Unless somebody helps them, then they have every justification to do what they need to survive.

Joel.LM wrote:Their culture was beautiful, based around family and community until we ruined it by trying to integrate them into ours.

I don't think we really know enough about it to make value judgements like that. The situation as it is, however, is pretty fucked up no matter what the reasons, and it's something that needs to be fixed.

By the way, I'm also not suggesting that ANYBODY be forcefully relocated.