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brimstoneSalad
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Re: Greetings.

Post by brimstoneSalad »

Sadistic I Am wrote:and have no qualms using my superior intellect and evolutionary traits to dominate a less fortunate species and end their inferior lives.
As I mentioned before, evolution is not a species vs. species battle, it's just a bunch of genes bumbling around mindlessly, with successful ones becoming more prevalent.
There is no goal to subjugate or defeat other species, there is only replication and survival.
Rarely does that survival ever involve destroying other species directly or subjugating them, sometimes it involves working with them (symbiosis); most often it just results in outcompeting other organisms that are vying for the same ecological niche -- and that means resources.

If you actually wanted to promote the fitness of the human species, you would advocate veganism, not out of compassion, but because eating animals is inefficient.
You would advocate that cows and chickens just ceased to exist, and humans used all of the resources directly and efficiently.

With the same land, food, and water resources it takes to feed cows, then kill the cows and feed humans, you could instead feed MANY more humans.
The cow is the middle-man here, wasting resources.

It's basic ecology, and thermodynamics -- read about trophic levels.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trophic_l ... efficiency
Wikipedia wrote:The efficiency with which energy or biomass is transferred from one trophic level to the next is called the ecological efficiency. Consumers at each level convert on average only about 10% of the chemical energy in their food to their own organic tissue (the ten-percent law). For this reason, food chains rarely extend for more than 5 or 6 levels.
Being at the "top" really sounds like a great position, right?
Sure, to an idiot.
You're at the top of the cheerleader pyramid, which means not only are you the species most likely to crack its head and go extinct if ANY link below it is broken, but you're also the least numerous species by necessity of physics.

If there are a hundred large plants, there are ten herbivores, and one carnivore (if even that).

The carnivore is not the successful species here; it's a parasite that relies on the herbivores who are the real winners in terms of population and genetic success.
We are literally threatening our own survival on this planet with our habits. We're trying to sustain the huge population of herbivores with the behavior of carnivores -- something has to give. It's not physically possible.
Either we have to start eating plants directly (we've already killed off most of our predators, so there's nothing to worry about there, as if changing our eating habits would magically create predators for us), or we have to cull our population through mass genocide (and yet it continues to grow). If we don't do one of those, our species will go extinct and prove itself unfit.

There are species that do that in the wild. They're so absurdly "successful" for a brief period that they burn out their resources, the population crashes, and they go extinct. Humans would be one in a long line.

We humans are proving with our unsustainable actions that we aren't superior, as you say. Cockroaches will be around long after we're gone, and in evolutionary terms, they're the real champions here if there are any (at least among animals), and bacteria put us ALL to shame.

That said, your usage of the words "superior" and "inferior" are really nonsense, because you're assuming some kind of grand narrative that evolution just doesn't have. Real superiority only means thriving, and inferiority means extinction, and both of those depend on the environment and complex interactions.

Intelligence is not superior to being brainless; organisms can and do evolve to lose their brains (as Oysters have), and other traits, when they are no longer useful. Some have even evolved to do it in their lifetimes, like male angler fish that attach to a female and get absorbed, becoming nothing more than a pair of gonads. This process evolved because it was a superior survival and procreation strategy to carry those genes.
In evolutionary terms, superiority means nothing like what you think it means.

Now that humans have developed technology to think for them, maybe the species will move in that direction; we've effectively removed all of the selective pressures that used to keep our species healthy and smart. Infertile couples can have children, people can wear glasses to see when they're nearly blind, a number of genetic diseases are now treatable to keep the person alive, and to think of the direction our collective brain power may be drifting is just depressing.

And that brings me to the final problem with your assertion: you are not superior in any meaningful way on your own.
Not intellectually, not in terms of strength, speed, immunity. Chimps and other non-human animals can outperform humans on MANY specific cognitive tests that use visual metrics, thinking faster, more accurately, preserving working and short term memory better, etc. In terms of strength, humans are a laughing stock. We're also slow in short bursts, and we die easily from infection. You can't fly, you can't breathe under water, and you can only hold your breath for a couple minutes at most. You can't dig, you can't really fight, or even run or climb with anything better than laughable clumsiness. Even our best athletes are jokes.

As species, we have two relatively uncommon genetic 'gifts':
1. The ability to walk slowly over a long distance without burning very many calories (wow, what a super power).
2. Slightly more developed linguistic hardware.

These are things that are useless for an individual, or even a tribe taken on its own.

To borrow the popular phrase from Newton:
"If I have seen further it is by standing on ye sholders of Giants."

We are nothing without our heritage. It is the memetic foundation that we carry with us, and that has been contributed to for many thousands of years that makes us even passingly coherent.
You may stand in awe at what you pride yourself on as some great intellect, a quality of your superior DNA, but that's complete bullshit.
Most of what you are, and what makes up the largest part of any human IQ north of any other ape, is environmental and cultural.

See the Flynn Effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect

If I cloned you and threw you in a jungle to be raised by chimps, you'd be as stupid as the rest of them, and at best you might learn how to eat ants off a stick in your lifetime, if you didn't die of your human frailty first. Human potential is not defined by Disney movies like Tarzan and The Jungle Book. If you came back into contact with society, you probably wouldn't be able to learn any useful level of human language or even be able to learn the concept of how to use a toilet, regardless of how much tutoring and personal attention your received.

Look into Feral Children:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feral_child

It's considered unethical to experiment on children by depriving them of language and human interaction, so we don't have much data on it, but what we do know is sobering and demonstrates how much we are cumulative products of society, not little packages of magical raw potential that can be realized at any time.
Wikipedia wrote:Feral children lack the basic social skills that are normally learned in the process of enculturation. For example, they may be unable to learn to use a toilet, have trouble learning to walk upright after walking on fours all their life, and display a complete lack of interest in the human activity around them. They often seem mentally impaired and have almost insurmountable trouble learning a human language.[2] The impaired ability to learn a natural language after having been isolated for so many years is often attributed to the existence of a critical period for language learning, and taken as evidence in favor of the critical period hypothesis.[3]
Genetically, you are nothing, so stop pretending to be so special. You're mostly worm, as Zarathustra might say. Society: now that's something. And it's nothing of your doing. If anything, you're personally dragging society down and holding back social evolution by advocating inefficient practices like eating animal products for no good reason that only threaten our sustainability and survival as a species.

The way society evolves, and the way humans really advance (on the coat tails of that shared memetic cultural infrastructure), is by introducing new ideas that actually challenge the primitive practices of our ancient shit eating ancestors (literally, they ate their own shit).


Your homework:

1. Read all of the above, and try to at least skim the links.

2. Recognize that evolutionary competition is about resources, it's not a literal war for domination and subjugation.

3. Recognize that we are wasting resources on cows, and chickens, and the like due to unavoidable facts of thermodynamics, so true success in those terms would be going vegan and cutting the middle-man of animal agriculture out of the picture in terms of our food supplies and maximize human population with the available resources.

4. Understand that this is not just some bleeding heart liberal issue; we are on an extinction track. That's what "unsustainable" means. You can't populate like an herbivore and eat like a carnivore, it just isn't viable. Something has to give; You can advocate mass genocide if you want as a solution (a small population of human carnivores), but you should also understand you're just as likely to be a casualty in the war that would mean.

5. Stop being so full of yourself. You're genetically inferior in almost every way to the vast majority of species on the planet. Everything you are, you owe to society, and not to your innate abilities. Even your IQ (to the extent it is) is a product of society. Lacking the social framework that created you, genetically all you are is a particularly weak and fragile shit eating ape.

6. Understand that is it social, MEMETIC, evolution that is responsible for what and where we are now beyond the wild state, not genetic evolution. And right now, you're a pathogen in the system.

If you understand, accept, and comply with those points, I can move on to the other fallacies in your post.
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garrethdsouza
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Re: Greetings.

Post by garrethdsouza »

this is a 5s graphic video NSFW, often the standard in the poultry industry https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8-fiHHbdRs
idk why you're trolling, can you imagine having to go through this? they were just born into this system, they did not choose to be nonhuman animals and they feel pain just as we do. what twisted sociocultural conditioning led us to accept this?
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Sadistic I Am
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Re: Greetings.

Post by Sadistic I Am »

I understand and agree with all of them, though I would MUCH rather have mass genocide than to stop eating meat. You'll probably think it's ridiculous, but i'm somewhat of a prepper. If it DID happen, I'd be ready and have a MUCH better chance than the 99.99% of people who thought it was a joke.
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Sadistic I Am
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Re: Greetings.

Post by Sadistic I Am »

garrethdsouza wrote:idk why you're trolling, can you imagine having to go through this?
As said before, I PROMISE I am not trolling. I actually can get an idea of how it's like, and I know I am very fortunate to be on the other side of the coin as a human.
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: Greetings.

Post by brimstoneSalad »

garrethdsouza wrote:this is a 5s graphic video NSFW, often the standard in the poultry industry https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8-fiHHbdRs
idk why you're trolling, can you imagine having to go through this? they were just born into this system, they did not choose to be nonhuman animals and they feel pain just as we do. what twisted sociocultural conditioning led us to accept this?
That kind of argument won't work on this kind of person, because he has no empathy for others. Look into psychopathy; it's an inherent lack of empathy.
He wouldn't mind even if they were other humans, as long as it wasn't a threat to him. Notice how he said he wouldn't mind mass genocide of other humans?
He's also a sadist, so he received sexual pleasure from the idea of others suffering from his actions.

In the other post, I estimated this kind of person at around one in a thousand or so.
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: Greetings.

Post by brimstoneSalad »

Sadistic I Am wrote:I understand and agree with all of them, though I would MUCH rather have mass genocide[...]
Do you understand, then, that such a preference is against the survival interests of the human species, and against the interests of both your genetic and memetic makeup?
It's self-destructive, there's nothing rational about that.

Are you suicidal?
Sadistic I Am wrote:You'll probably think it's ridiculous, but i'm somewhat of a prepper. If it DID happen, I'd be ready and have a MUCH better chance than the 99.99% of people who thought it was a joke.
It would be possible to survive after such an event, although your survival would not be guaranteed. Even with the best prepping, your chances are still pretty poor.
Preventing the issue to begin with gives you a much better chance of survival.
If you prep, and work to prevent the issue, you have the best combined chance of survival -- reducing the chances of the shit hitting the fan, and having a back up just in case it does.

All other things being equal, wouldn't you rather a better chance of survival than a worse one?

Also, keep in mind that short term survival does not imply a quality of life that you are used to. Look around you: All of your modern comforts, and even the food you enjoy (even the meat) are products of a large infrastructure which would fall if the human population crashed. This also comes to the medical infrastructure; you would have a very poor chance of living beyond 45 without society to support your health and welfare.

Living as vegans, we will ultimately be able to eat much more meat than you would be able to if society falls apart.
Which brings me to the other point:
Sadistic I Am wrote:[...]than to stop eating meat.
Your fallacy is a false dilemma: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

You wouldn't have to stop for good, or even stop eating meat-like things.

In the not very distant future, we'll have bio-reacted meat (if we can hold off the crash of civilization long enough), which will be more efficient. Pieces of cow, chicken, etc. grown larger in nutrient medium.

NOW we have simulated meat made from various vegetable proteins. Some are poor imitations, others are very convincing.
Have you ever tried any of these?

See: http://beyondmeat.com/

How can you know you'd rather mass genocide and the collapse of society instead of changing your habits, when you don't fully grasp the poor quality of life you would have if society falls, and you aren't even aware of how good some of the more recent artificial meats are?

And then there are also the more rare sustainable animal products, like (as mentioned elsewhere), rope grown oysters -- which unlike beef and chicken, are much more efficient and may even help improve the environment rather than damage it -- and insect protein (like from crickets), which many people around the world enjoy, but Westerners are too stuck up or squeamish to eat.
Sadistic I Am wrote:The erotic thrills are just a bonus.
That's the only thing these alternatives lack; they wouldn't give you the "erotic thrill" of causing suffering to others.
Do you desire so much to cause suffering to others, that you are willing to destroy yourself and your own quality of life in the process?

Can't you get your rocks off some other way?
Sadistic I Am wrote:It is human nature to dominate,
I've already explained how this is bullshit in the prior two posts.
Sadistic I Am wrote:and animals WILL be eaten for as long as there are humans to eat them.
Yes, and women will be raped for as long as there are men to rape them. And cars will crash and kill people for as long as there are cars to be driven.
Shit happens. Even if something is made illegal, and we create regulations to try to prevent it, there will always be people breaking the law, and collateral damage.

Just because shit does and will happen, doesn't mean we shouldn't try to make it happen less.
Trying to mitigate the effect of bad shit happening is the cornerstone of society. It's the greatest advancement of humanity over the crudeness of nature. I've explained how it's social memetic evolution which is how we improve -- and that's how it works. Nothing is ever perfect, expecting it to be 100% perfect is idiotic.
Sadistic I Am wrote:Their fate is sealed.
There's no such thing as fate. We're all subjects of happenstance; good things happen, bad things happen, sometimes things go your way, sometimes you go extinct.
What we can do is change the odds. Make good stuff happen slightly more than bad stuff, reduce the chances of bad things happening, and the overall incidence.
Sadistic I Am wrote:Good sir, I hope that you will someday accept this fact, and embrace it.
Which highlights your fallacy: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

None of us expect a Utopian world. None of us are even 'perfect'; we just try to be less destructive, because it's the only rational thing to do. If everybody was a bit less destructive, and when people were more destructive we did the sensible thing and locked them up (or killed them, if you like), our species would have a much better chance of surviving all of this.

Your homework:

1. Read all of that, and at least skim the links.

2. Answer the questions. I have made the question marks bold and red for your convenience. As such: ?

3. Recognize that veganism isn't about perfection, it's about reducing harmful actions.
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Sadistic I Am
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Re: Greetings.

Post by Sadistic I Am »

1. No. I'm not suicidal.
2. The better chance of survival comes at a price: a sickening world where it's actually against the law to eat meat. I'd rather take my chances and be free to eat what i please.
3. I've tried some things like that, most of which are very noticeably different. And even if they did, giving up real meat is submitting to veganism and letting them win, and i cannot do that. For fuck's sake, would you ever think of giving Christianity what it wants?
4. Like i said, changing my habits is just giving you want you want.
5. Absolutely.
6. No. No, i can't.

I hope that answers all of your questions. But wait...
brimstoneSalad wrote:Yes, and women will be raped for as long as there are men to rape them.
WTF? You realize that not ONLY women are raped, right?
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: Greetings.

Post by brimstoneSalad »

Sadistic I Am wrote:WTF? You realize that not ONLY women are raped, right?
You realize that not ONLY non-human animals are eaten, right?
Humans eat humans sometimes too, many non-human animals eat others, and each other. Everything eats everything, sometimes, for the most part. Even deer sometimes eat small animals.
Anything can get eaten. It's irrelevant, and it's not a valid argument on your part.

It was just an example to demonstrate how irrelevant and useless making a general claim like that is. I used the same structure you did to illustrate a point.
I don't take sides in the Feminist vs. MRA thing going on right now, and that's not the subject of this discussion.
Sadistic I Am wrote:2. The better chance of survival comes at a price: a sickening world where it's actually against the law to eat meat. I'd rather take my chances and be free to eat what i please.
Why not make killing humans legal too then? Chances of survival drop a bit, but then it's a freer world where you can kill whoever you please! Like the good old days of the lawless Wild West where a man lived or died by the gun.

I understand you are probably an ideological libertarian and have Randroid leanings, and you may even be an Anarchist. While there are some valid points in libertarianism, treating it as a religion or aspiring to the ramblings of Rand are just ignorance of political science.

The freedom of one person to swing his fist, by necessity of societal order, stops where the next person's face begins.
When a particular practice is particularly harmful to society, it makes sense to outlaw it.

You will find, if you ask, that MOST people here agree that the war on drugs is a huge failure, and that drugs should be decriminalized and people should be allowed to have and use them, since it mainly just hurts themselves.

A large percentage of members on this forum ARE libertarians -- although we don't take it as a religion.

Also, I wouldn't necessarily make it against the law to eat meat. The issue is wide-scale commercial animal agriculture.
Sadistic I Am wrote:3. I've tried some things like that, most of which are very noticeably different.
They're improving all of the time. Have you tried beyond meat?
Also, a large part of it depends on how it's cooked and seasoned.

The larger the demand for meat substitutes, the more money is in it, and the more competition -- this will drive them to become better, cheaper, and more widely available.
Sadistic I Am wrote:And even if they did, giving up real meat is submitting to veganism and letting them win, and i cannot do that. For fuck's sake, would you ever think of giving Christianity what it wants?
This just sounds like ignorant pride and your personal dogma talking.

There is a difference between a belief or practice which is actually supported by scientific evidence, and one which people pulled out of their asses or an ancient book written by ignorant tribal leaders.

If Christianity was actually RIGHT about something, OF COURSE I would agree with it. I'm not some closed minded bigot who refuses to acknowledge facts. If they actually put up and showed evidence, I'd get on board.

If Homosexuality ACTUALLY caused earthquakes and floods, and Christians could provide scientific evidence to prove this, OF COURSE I would be against it.
But as it stands, consensual homosexual relationships don't harm anybody. And the Christians who believe that are morons.

Likewise, if Christians could actually demonstrate that abortion was harmful, I would get on board there too. But as it stands, allowing abortion reduces crime and poverty, improving society. Also, all of the evidence suggests that early-term fetuses are basically non-sentient; they are in no way fully formed people. They have no interests to be harmed at that point by being aborted.

If somebody is actually CORRECT, and can put up the evidence, you should agree with them. Otherwise, you're no different from the Christians who cling to their dogmas despite mountains of scientific evidence against them.

Sadistic I Am wrote:4. Like i said, changing my habits is just giving you want you want.
That's not what I asked.
Sadistic I Am wrote:5. Absolutely.
You said you weren't suicidal.
If you're willing to destroy yourself to harm others, there's a lot worse you can do.
Sadistic I Am wrote:6. No. No, i can't.
Why?
Are you too unattractive (physically or personality-wise) to have a sexual partner? Can you not get it up? What's the issue that absolutely prevents you from experiencing any other pleasure?

There is at least one other way that's sure to work: An electrode could be inserted into the part of your brain that stimulates sexual pleasure, and you could have an orgasm at the press of a button.

Your homework:

1. Read all of that.
2. Answer questions.
3. Try to answer question #4 from the prior post better.
4. Acknowledge that you understand the difference between beliefs and practices based on evidence, and those based on bullshit superstitions.
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Pride The Solo King
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Re: Greetings.

Post by Pride The Solo King »

You seem evil.
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Re: Greetings.

Post by Pride The Solo King »

Sadistic I Am wrote:
garrethdsouza wrote:They don't "give" us their lives any more than rape victims voluntarily give rapists their body sexually. Neither do they exist "to do" this. We forcefully breed them into existence. Carnist doublespeak.
Yes. Perhaps they don't "give" their bodies, but rather we take them and there's nothing they can do. Which, by the way, is twice as arousing. Regardless of how wrong it is, it's happening anyway. I doubt there's much you vegans can do about it either. Dunno how many others feel the same, but you'd have to KILL me to stop me from devouring cute little farm animals. :twisted:
In India, you would be arrested for eating a cow. Just saiyan.
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