Veganism and anticaptialism

[FredVegrox]

Civilization is not sustainable in this world, taking from it more and more as it grows, which is its only direction, until its collapse. The alternative I know about is people living in small communities with simpler living, as people had always lived without civilization before, growing things to be sustainable remaining independent.

I disagree. I firmly believe that the reason why we have so many envioronmental woes is not due to civilization or a rising poplation necessarily, it's because of our extremely unsustainable ways we are continuing to live. We already have a huge waste of food by giving most of it to livestock, which is also results in an excessive carbon footprint, and if we switch our energy to renewables and nuclear power (especially the latter), use GM technology to grow more food more efficiently, invest in more public transportation, that'd cut down our emissions to basically none.

It might take a while for this stuff to become reality, but it is certainly possible to have civilization and not hurt the environment.

Ultimately, I don't see a reason why we can't easily support the world's population and thensome without hurting the environment. We can have both a large population with a high quality of life and a minimal environmental impact.

You can disagree if you choose, certainly. I just share what I am seeing. Civilization just takes resources. It can't exist without doing so. Previous civilization has collapsed. This current civilization is better adjusted with many improvisations at going further, without yet collapsing from used up resources. But there is still a limit, and there can only be so much growth, until there is not enough to continue anyway. Non-renewable resources are dwindling right now. Environments are quickly being diminished. Many species are going extinct continously. Global warming is happening with climate change. Insects, especially winged insects, are drastically diminished. Oceans are being depleted. I see enough signs to show me the unsustainability of civilization which we have cannot go on. If we are not close to the end, continuing with this will bring us closer to the end. There can be sustainable ways for people to be in this world without it.

Anti-capitalism is antithetical to veganism by definition.

Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals.

Veganism, (at least as an ethical choice) wouldn't make any sense outside of the the context of supply/demand. In practice, it means boycotting harmful businesses and promoting personal consumer choices that influence businesses to produce alternative goods. Without this context, our actions become little more than vacuous posturing.

As far as "capitalism should be abolished and replaced with x" is concerned... the other economic models are at "best" untested, or at worst have failed time and time again.

I wonder if capitalism could someday be replaced with a better system.

I to the contrary think there is always good basis to be vegan, and even in a communist society less people using animal products will come to less animals being used there to get those products.

[Lay Vegan]

I to the contrary think there is always good basis to be vegan,

Except that without capitalism, the "basis" to eat plant based would not be rooted in any cogent ethical system or practice that does any measurable good in the world.The best way veganism as a personal consumer choice positively affects the world is by changing production. Production of our food, clothing, products, entertainment etc. Communism makes this irrelevant.

and even in a communist society less people using animal products will come to less animals being used there to get those products.

I'm not convinced you understand communism. The free market mechanisms you're referring to do not exist in a communist system. Under this system, one may choose to be vegan, but since his actions have zero affect on the production chain or animal welfare, they would be little more than symbolic.

[FredVegrox]

I to the contrary think there is always good basis to be vegan,

Except that without capitalism, the "basis" to eat plant based would not be rooted in any cogent ethical system or practice that does any measurable good in the world.The best way veganism as a personal consumer choice positively affects the world is by changing production. Production of our food, clothing, products, entertainment etc. Communism makes this irrelevant.

and even in a communist society less people using animal products will come to less animals being used there to get those products.

I'm not convinced you understand communism. The free market mechanisms you're referring to do not exist in a communist system. Under this system, one may choose to be vegan, but since his actions have zero affect on the production chain or animal welfare, they would be little more than symbolic.

Ethical choices are still important in any system.

I think I do understand it. If no one was using products from animals animals would not be continuing to be used. If half the people were not using products from animals there would be a lot less use of animals than if everyone wanted to use products from animals.

[FredVegrox]

I am actually not for communism, nor am I for capitalism. I am for small, very small, communities away from cities of civilization independently working with what there is on land where they are growing things for all that is needed, the sustainable way. For those doing that I don't give a damn whether their arrangement is more communist or more capitalist among themselves, if they are sustainable communities. It would certainly be more anarchist.

[Lay Vegan]

Ethical choices are still important in any system.

Ethical consumer choices become irrelevant in a communist system. See above. In communism, businesses are instructed on what goods and services to provide consumers. What people individually choose to purchase or not to purchase is not important because if the government dictates the supply of animal products, then it WILL be supplied. It wouldn’t matter if 90% of the population eats plant based. Any and all factors/decisions of production are regulated by said central planners. Veganism as currently defined and understood by the Vegan Society would make ZERO sense as an ethical practice under this system.

I think I do understand it.

You say this, but then you follow it up with this statement:

If no one was using products from animals animals would not be continuing to be used. If half the people were not using products from animals there would be a lot less use of animals than if everyone wanted to use products from animals.

This would apply assuming the forces of competition and supply/demand are operating in the market economy. Competition, supply and demand a communist system do not operate. You do not understand communism. I'm not convinced you understand basic economics, really.

[FredVegrox]

It is not about understanding communism. It is about math. If there are ten people and no one uses anything from animals, there will not be animals used. If half of them, five people, use items from animals, this will have half the amount of animals being used than if all ten of them used animals. Each individual who will choose to not use an animal will affect how much animal use there is, by an increment of a tenth, whether they share what they have in a community, or work to trade competively. This math will apply with greater numbers to, while with smaller increments of an effect, still worth it when many more go vegan.

You also assume government's role. Government can see what happens with unwanted supply. It would not stay the same with that case. But there are communes and anarchists wanting their communist way, who would not have government anyway.

[FredVegrox]

Even if you would not know whether not eating items from animals would make any difference for betterment of animals, why would you want to do such gross things? What economic system is in place where you are should not make any difference to that.