Philosophical Vegan Forum

Reza Aslan is right when stating that the most moderate Muslim countries are the largest ones, but they too support Sharia law, which includes stoning of those who abandon the Muslim faith. In fact, recent polls indicate that the majority population in every Muslim country in the world supports Sharia law.

I have to say that the argument about FGM sounds compelling, however it isn't correct. While there are different reasons people perform FGM on their daughters in Africa (and elsewhere), Islamic beliefs are a major one. A great response can be found here:
http://www.heatherhastie.com/reza-aslan ... am-on-fgm/

Volenta wrote: Well, you already kind of pointed to one. Affleck seem to think that the group of fundamentalist Muslims is lower than Harris thinks it is (although he could have changed his position on this throughout the discussion after Harris gave him some facts).

I got the sense that he kind of accepted that as a granted fact, but that it was irrelevant to him because he knows many Muslims who are not like that, and to him it doesn't matter if 99% of Muslims happen to agree with that; he doesn't think the majority have the right to define the religion for the minority.

That was my interpretation, anyway.

Jebus wrote:but they too support Sharia law, which includes stoning of those who abandon the Muslim faith.

Have you talked to any Muslims? Have you talked to any Christians?

Christians in the U.S. overwhelmingly support biblical law. They're also overwhelmingly ignorant about what that means. Almost nobody actually wants people who work on the Sabbath to be put to death.
Christian support of biblical law is founded on Ignorance. You really think Muslims are more educated about their own theology than Christians are?

Because I've argued with Iranian Muslims, and it's a far cry to say they really know any more about Islam than Christians know about their bible.
You're giving them far too much credit if you assume they do.

If you want to know if they actually support stoning people who leave Islam, you have to ask them that specifically, just as you have to ask Christians specifically if they support stoning people who work on the Sabbath.

Christianity, by the letter of the law, is even more cruel and intolerant than Sharia law in Islam is. Luckily, while people claim to believe that stuff, in actuality they are both ignorant of it, and reject it with various excuses when presented with it. The same is true for Muslims in civilized countries.

They "support Sharia law" yes, and they're also very nearly completely ignorant about what that means.

There's a big difference between theory and practice.

Your problem is you expect people to be educated and consistent. You'll be closer to reality by expecting profound ignorance and hypocrisy as a default.

[quote="brimstoneSalad"
Have you talked to any Muslims? Have you talked to any Christians?

Yes, I have lived and worked in both Muslim nations and Christian nations.

Christian support of biblical law is founded on Ignorance. You really think Muslims are more educated about their own theology than Christians are?

Yes, by a mile. Muslim children often spend several hours per day studying the Quran.

Christianity, by the letter of the law, is even more cruel and intolerant than Sharia law in Islam is. Luckily, while people claim to believe that stuff, in actuality they are both ignorant of it, and reject it with various excuses when presented with it. The same is true for Muslims in civilized countries.

If by "civilized countries" you mean industrialized developed nations, these Muslims make up a small percentage of all muslims.

They "support Sharia law" yes, and they're also very nearly completely ignorant about what that means.

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the- ... -overview/

Your problem is you expect people to be educated and consistent

.[/quote]

I find it amusing how someone can be so factually incorrect in nearly everything he writes while concluding that someone else has a problem in their reasoning.

Jebus wrote:http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the- ... -overview/

That is one revealing research, it just shows how large the threat of Islam truly is.

Jebus, read this article:

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the- ... -overview/

It completely debunks your claims and demonstrates how ignorant you are on this subject.

Jebus wrote: Yes, by a mile. Muslim children often spend several hours per day studying the Quran.

Great demonstration of your ignorance here. Most of Sharia law doesn't come from the Qur'an, but Sunnah, which comes mostly from Hadith and the traditions left by Muhammad's rule (and deviated from/built upon over time).

It's a bit like the claim that reading the Bible will teach you British common law.

Muslims are also ignorant about what's in the Qur'an in adulthood (just as are adult Christians regardless of how much they studied as children). They remember a few stories and the general plot at best, similar to Christian knowledge of the bible.

You can teach a child advanced calculus and force them to study several hours a day, but they'll still forget it all as soon as they don't use it -- because it's not useful to them in their daily lives.

The fact of the matter is that most Muslims, like Christians, are ignorant of their own religion because they've never really been challenged to think about it.
Vague assertions about how much some Muslim children are forced to study are irrelevant to that.

Jebus wrote: If by "civilized countries" you mean industrialized developed nations, these Muslims make up a small percentage of all muslims.

I don't consider it a "small percentage". If you want to consider a perhaps slight minority a "small percentage" and twist words like that, go ahead.

miniboes wrote:

Jebus wrote:http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the- ... -overview/

That is one revealing research, it just shows how large the threat of Islam truly is.

Not really. It shows how divided opinions are within the Islamic faith.

A majority support Sharia law, and if you only read the very beginning of that article, that might seem scary.

But then you read on, you find what that means isn't always so clear, and that MOST Muslims only nominally support Sharia law (much like most Christians nominally support the ten commandments without having any idea what that actually means).

You find that in many if not most places, the majority of Muslims who support Sharia law at all (which is around 80-ish% of Muslims), ONLY support sharia law for Muslims.

That is, if you're not Muslim, you don't have to follow Sharia law. That makes it opt-in, essentially, or born in.

I don't have a problem with that, as long as people are also allowed to leave Islam if they want to. Which, in most places, they can. The death sentence for apostasy is highly controversial, even among Muslims who support Sharia law.

See this chart:



ONLY in South Asia and The Middle East/North Africa is the view that Apostates should be killed represented by the majority.

And in the Middle East/North Africa, it's only a slight one.

Here's a better breakdown: http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the- ... ut-sharia/

Muslims think Sharia is the word of god, and that there's only one interpretation of Sharia... but they all disagree on what that one interpretation is...

There are two important issues.

#1 The death pentalty for leaving Islam, which is scary. I'm nut Muslim so I don't have to worry about that, but that's a serious human rights concern.

Let's look at how Muslims actually feel about it:



In most places, even only among Muslims who say Sharia should be the law of the land, most of those Muslims don't support the death penalty for leaving Islam. It is a contentious issue, and proves that nominally supporting Sharia law does not mean they support "stoning those who abandon the Muslim faith".

Of those surveyed, only these support the death penalty (also, usually not stoning):

Malaysia: 62%
Afghanistan: 79%
Pakistan: 76%
Egypt: 86%
Jordan: 82%
Palestinian terr. 66%

When you adjust for ALL Muslims in those countries:

Malaysia (14% against Sharia): 53%
Afghanistan (1% against Sharia): 78%
Pakistan (16% against Sharia): 64%
Egypt (26% against Sharia): 64%
Jordan (29% against Sharia): 58%
Palistinian terr. (11% against Sharia): 59%

This is a much more contentious issue than the slanted picture Jebus paints.

Afghanistan is a backwards country, and there's no excuse there.

But elsewhere, 36% - 47% of Muslims is not a small minority; it's a slight one (and it ignores the vast majority in more developed countries which, if you run all of the numbers, may even put Muslims in a slight global majority for opposing the death penalty for apostasy).
And since many of these more conservative values skew old (and the more liberal and tolerant ones skew young), there's reason to have hope for even these less developed majority Muslim countries.

The other issue is whether Sharia law applies to non-Muslims, which is not supported in most countries:



Only in these countries do half or more of Sharia law supporters think it should apply to non-Muslims:

Kyrgystan: 62%
Indonesia: 50%
Afghanistan: 61%
Egypt: 74%
Jordan: 58%

Again, adjusted for the TOTAL number of Muslims in these countries:

Kyrgystan (65% against Sharia): 22%
Indonesia (28% against Sharia): 36%
Afghanistan (1% against Sharia): 60%
Egypt (26% against Sharia): 55%
Jordan (28% against Sharia): 41%

A slight majority of Muslims in only two countries support Sharia law and it's application to non-Muslims.

Even in Afghanistan, 40% don't hold the view that non-Muslims should be held to Sharia law.

Afghanistan and Egypt are the only two countries (and only by a bit) where the views of Muslims are a serious threat to the rights of non-Muslims to a secular government.

Compare to similar sentiments in the U.S. from Christians:

http://atheism.about.com/od/Church-Stat ... States.htm

Not such a big difference after all.

Here's the survey of what percentage of Muslims favor making Sharia the law of the land at all (by which I adjusted the numbers above):



Anyway, the moral of the story is don't worry too much about it. There's reason to have some hope, and it's not all doom and gloom.

brimstoneSalad wrote:Jebus, read this article:

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the- ... -overview/

It completely debunks your claims and demonstrates how ignorant you are on this subject.

Please provide specific example of how this very long article demonstrates ignorance on my part.

Jebus wrote: Yes, by a mile. Muslim children often spend several hours per day studying the Quran.

Great demonstration of your ignorance here. Most of Sharia law doesn't come from the Qur'an, but Sunnah, which comes mostly from Hadith and the traditions left by Muhammad's rule (and deviated from/built upon over time).

OK, so how is this explanation of the origins of Sharia law relevant to my comment that muslim children often spend hours per day studying the Quran?

Jebus wrote: If by "civilized countries" you mean industrialized developed nations, these Muslims make up a small percentage of all muslims.

I don't consider it a "small percentage". If you want to consider a perhaps slight minority a "small percentage" and twist words like that, go ahead

.

If I understand you correctly you mean that these "developed nation" muslims make up a "slight minority" (about 40-49.9%) of all muslims?

Brimstonesalad. It is clear that you like to debate, and I too appreciate an intellectually stimulating debate. However, even though your posts make it perfectly clear that you disagree, the overly wordy nature of your replies often make the source of the disagreement very unclear. If this, or any other debate between us, are to continue, please be more clear and specific of how the words you write are relevant to the words you are replying to.

Jebus wrote: Please provide specific example of how this very long article demonstrates ignorance on my part.

Don't be lazy. Read the article. You're the one who posted it first anyway. The very link you posted debunks the claims you pretended to back up using it, and supports my prior post.

If you don't understand how this is, re-read the post of mine that you replied to. You may have misunderstood me. You can also read the last post I made to miniboes where I broke down the statistics in that article a bit.

I have a feeling that most people are just looking at the first table in there, and feinting at the sight of it.

The fact is that Muslim support of Sharia law means about as much as Christian support of the ten commandments (less, even, since Sharia laws is larger and more complex- and Muslims are even more ignorant of it than the ten commandments).

Jebus wrote: OK, so how is this explanation of the origins of Sharia law relevant to my comment that muslim children often spend hours per day studying the Quran?

It wasn't a comment. You were trying to negate my point. Can you follow a conversation for more than two posts without cliff notes?

I said Muslims are ignorant of their own religion, they don't understand what Sharia law is, what that means, or what they're saying when they answer surveys. They, like Christians, know very little about their own religion.

You can't make assumptions that people know WTF they're talking about.

When Christians say they support the ten commandments and think it is or should be the basis of law, they are ACTUALLY saying they think "don't kill, don't steal, and do unto others as you would have them do unto you" which they think are the most important commandments (one of those not even being on there), should be the basis of the law. They aren't saying they think that people shouldn't work on the Sabbath.

I can recite the ten commandments from memory. Christians can't. They have no idea what the ten commandments are or say.

Same with Muslims and Sharia law (which is even more complex than the ten commandments).

Jebus wrote: If I understand you correctly you mean that these "developed nation" muslims make up a "slight minority" (about 40-49.9%) of all muslims?

See my post above.

I'm not really interested in digging more into this right now.

Jebus wrote:However, even though your posts make it perfectly clear that you disagree, the overly wordy nature of your replies often make the source of the disagreement very unclear.

No, they don't. You just need to read more carefully, and look back for context if you forget. Don't be so lazy.

I'm not really invested in this subject. But you can't go off half cocked ranting about Muslim support for Sharia law and saying that means X, when Muslims are in no way in agreement about what that means among themselves.

I'm not really interested in arguing with you about this, because the facts speak for themselves and you can read them (or be ignorant) at your leisure.

Love or hate Islam if you want, but it would be in your best interest to not misrepresent the statistics.

Brimstonesalad.

I asked you to name a specific example of how the article demonstrated ignorance on my part. You replied that I was lazy and should find the example on my own.

I asked you how your newly found knowledge on Sharia law was relevant to my comment on the education of Muslim children and the Quran. You replied that it was a reply to me having negated a previous point without any demonstration of any relevance between any of these points. At the same time you made a condescending comment towards me (cliffs notes).

I had made a good point about your "slight minority" developed world muslim comment and instead of addressing it you replied: "I'm not really interested in digging more into this right now."

As the grammar and word usage in your posts point to some degree of intelligence, it is unclear to me why you make such posts on this forum allhough I suspect it has something to do with ego rather than clear reasoning. In any case, since I don't see any trace of intelligent conversation I shall henceforth not reply to any more of your pointless posts.