Veganism – Life Loving or Cruelty Free ?

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DarlBundren
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Re: Veganism – Life Loving or Cruelty Free ?

Post by DarlBundren »

I guess there is room to further look into the subject of Plant pain.
As far as I can tell, they are saying that asking if plants can feel pain is akin to asking if gas molecules in a bottle want to get out of it or not. That means that if you are concerned about plants being eaten, you should also be concerned about gas molecules getting out of that bottle. It would mean that consciousness didn't need the information system that we currently associate with it.

And, I would argue, that would put us in a dangerous situation. If people started to believe that rocks and plants were sentient, many of them could come to the conclusion that there's no point in being vegan. Cows, rocks and sunflowers would be considered to belong to the same category, so what would be the point in refusing to eat meat?

It's very similar to the kind of animism professed by Francis of Assisi, when in his Laudes Creaturarum talks about fire and water as if they were real people. San Francis is, luckily, still associated with the patronage of animals and the environment, but was probably neither vegan (of course), nor vegetarian, and I have personally seen his philosophy used, by theists and atheists alike, to justify their consumption of meat. That's unfortunate.

This article covers many of the studies that have been carried out to demonstrate that plants are sentient: skepdic.com/plants.html The conclusion is that, although plants display many remarkable 'behaviors', speaking about plant neurobiology is speaking metaphorically.
It seems to me this is a vote for the Life Loving approach
I am not sure. They don't seem to believe that life is sacred, for example. Otherwise, they could have argued that giving birth to a cow, regardless of whether it will be slaughtered or not, is always a good thing. And they didn't, they said quite the opposite.

Deontology and consequentialism are just ethical frameworks. One could use a consequentialist approach and establish 'life' as their aim, as one could, deontologically, say that life is sacred and taking a life is always wrong. The conclusion can be the same, but it would result from two different ways of thinking.

This becomes more visible if we talk, for example, about animal testing.

Let's say we want to compare a consequential approach whose aim is the preservation of life, against a dentological approach according to which life is sacred. Let's then suppose that we can develop a cure for cancer, but, in order to do so, we need to kill a monkey.

Now, If you are a consequentialist and 'life' is your goal, killing that monkey is the right thing to do; you would lose one life, but you would develop something that could potentially save thousands of people. If you are a deontologist and consider life to be sacred, however, killing that monkey is always wrong, no matter how many lives you could potentially save.

As you can see, both these two hypothetical people care about 'life', but they come to the opposite conclusion.

So, first we should establish whether we should take a deontological or a consequential approach to the question and then see if 'life' should be our goal or not.
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VGnizm
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Re: Veganism – Life Loving or Cruelty Free ?

Post by VGnizm »

- Trying to establish that plants are as sentient as animals would not make any sense. The idea originally was to isolate and distinguish ' life ' as an element from the manifestation of ' life '. Basically is life the sum of its parts or is it a unique element that manifests itself by extending the form it is inhabiting. Example; is an insect simply the sum of its senses and it's motricity or is the element of ' life ' something additional and undefined that is an absolute requirement? Building on that the question becomes is that ' life ' present in a plant a different ' life ' than that in an insect, human etc?

- I am basing my vote on the following ->
" that it is not moral to kill a cow at age five, regardless of whether it is raised or killed Humanly ".
- Basically it is not cruelty that determines the choice to be vegan but rather the determination to give the cow rights to a full life.
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DarlBundren
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Re: Veganism – Life Loving or Cruelty Free ?

Post by DarlBundren »

is an insect simply the sum of its senses and it's motricity or is the element of ' life ' something additional and undefined that is an absolute requirement?
By life, do you mean consciousness? If that is the case, then try to read the last post on this thread. http://philosophicalvegan.com/viewtopic.php?p=28686#p28686
I am basing my vote on the following ->
" that it is not moral to kill a cow at age five, regardless of whether it is raised or killed Humanly ".
- Basically it is not cruelty that determines the choice to be vegan but rather the determination to give the cow rights to a full life.
Yeah, but I would like to ask her why she thinks that it is immoral. That makes all the difference. Maybe, if she knows how to speak English you can ask her (him?) to join the forum.

As regards your dilemma, what I was trying to ask is the following: Is it always immoral to kill the cow?
I think that that should be the first question.
It's important to determine that first and then see whether it's 'life' or 'pain' what we should be concerned about. I, for one,think that morality has more to do with promoting the 'preferences' of the beings involved.

I hope this helps.
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VGnizm
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Re: Veganism – Life Loving or Cruelty Free ?

Post by VGnizm »

- Not really consciousness. Perhaps life in the sense of a common element between living systems that allows them to exchange beyond direct sensory activity. Let's call it an exchange of energy.

- promote preferences or is it promote interests. Is morality to promote what others want or rather what is for their benefit?
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DarlBundren
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Re: Veganism – Life Loving or Cruelty Free ?

Post by DarlBundren »

Let's call it an exchange of energy
.

You would need to explain what you mean by energy. How is this energy being stored or manifested? Is this exchange of energy what in physics goes by the same name?
promote preferences or is it promote interests. Is morality to promote what others want or rather what is for their benefit?
I use them interchangeably. My preferences are my interests.
I would define morality as taking into consideration other people's interests and judge them from what Sedgwick calls the point of view of the universe. A vantage point from which my interests are of no more importance than the interests of any other person.
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Re: Veganism – Life Loving or Cruelty Free ?

Post by brimstoneSalad »

VGnizm wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2017 5:37 am Do we have facts or assumptions about the broccoli ? Not being clever but genuinely curious!
All scientific facts involve some basic assumptions. They're provisional.

As I explained in this thread:
http://philosophicalvegan.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2782

Plants aren't sentient, and we know this for factual reasons due to their qualities (lack of any significant information processing organs, sessile nature and evolution).
If you go beyond science, or disregard what we know of science, it's just as likely that rocks or water molecules are sentient, so the whole thing kind of goes out the window.

With respect to the important questions of moral relevance (overwhelming probability and the status of scientific knowledge today) we should regard them as non sentient to a moral certainty.

VGnizm wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2017 5:37 am I did mention that in one case it is the preservation of Life that predominates rendering the other options of taking life obsolete.
Life is not very well defined, and it's not morally relevant in itself. Computers are not alive, but can be sentient. What matters is sentience, and the taking away of that sentience.

Something non-living that IS sentient has moral value, and we shouldn't destroy it (unless it wants to be destroyed or there are other reasons making that necessary).
Something living that is NOT sentient has no moral value aside from its utility to sentient beings. We can destroy or kill it as we need.

What matters is sentience, and the destruction of that sentience or the violation of interests of that sentience.
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VGnizm
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Re: Veganism – Life Loving or Cruelty Free ?

Post by VGnizm »

-Now it is becoming interesting. We will work on defining energy.

-Are they interchangeable in the absolute or is it only from a relativist point of view? Is what i want also what is good for me? A diabetic craves sugar but is it good for him?
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DarlBundren
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Re: Veganism – Life Loving or Cruelty Free ?

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-Are they interchangeable in the absolute or is it only from a relativist point of view? Is what i want also what is good for me? A diabetic craves sugar but is it good for him?
It would be a matter of epistemic responsibility. That person should make an informed decision. But, if eating sugar is what they really want to do, there's not much I can do to stop them, ethically. They should take into consideration the interests of those who don't want them to be dead though. That is, we would have to compare their interest in eating sugar against the interests of those who love them.
Last edited by DarlBundren on Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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VGnizm
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Re: Veganism – Life Loving or Cruelty Free ?

Post by VGnizm »

-And I would add that suicide is a crime by some very common legal standards. And therefore voluntarily doing that which leads to a crime ....

There is much to do here as well ....
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DarlBundren
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Re: Veganism – Life Loving or Cruelty Free ?

Post by DarlBundren »

And I would add that suicide is a crime by some very common legal standards.
But we are talking about ethics here. If what is right is what is legal, then meat-eating is fine.
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