NonZeroSum wrote: 'Some' women don't.
Come on...Some women don't want to be punched in the face either. Would you claim that it is wrong to consider punching them in the face as a bad act only because some of them don't mind being punched? Now, seriously, I am not saying that women should not wear headscarves. I only want them to have the possibility to choose without being stoned.
An Introduction to Saba Mahmood’s Politics of Piety
Frankly, I don't find her argument compelling. She's basically saying that since we don't fully understand (whatever that means) x culture, then we cannot pass a judgement on it. We can only describe it. She claims that: 1) we are making assumptions about their agency. We are not. It's them who are protesting. 2) that we are portraying these women as passive victims. We aren't. 3) That we believe that the ones who cover their faces have been indoctrinated or forced to do so. No, we don't. They can wear their veils if they want to do so. 4) That we think that the ones that choose to do so are oppressed etc. etc.
Mahmood's thought experiment could be reproduced within the borders of our countries. Let's suppose you can travel back to the 50's. Now, you see that women cannot vote. Many of them are fine with it, because they think that they don't know anything about politics and economics and that they should or would follow what their husbands do, anyway. Suppose that there are other women who feel this is wrong. They say that if a woman don't want to vote, they can do so, but they do want to vote and think that the reasons why they don't have the possibility to do this is because of totally irrational reasons. Now, would you say that there's no way we could claim that this latter group is right? Would you claim that the only thing you can do is describing the situation?
I'm saying if we're talking about symbolic spectacle protests we should be cognizant about what message we're sending, people visiting from another country making a statement about being allowed to be uncovered represent their home country for what those values produce,
Yes, I agree.
conservative people might see a superficial population obsessed with looks and selfies, so it becomes about a clash of cultures whether you like it or not
And some Jewish men might see us as materialistic or value-less if we said that separate seating on buses is sexist and irrational.
Add on top of that if you're a politician in a diplomatic role, you are making a statement that your secular government and private religion is far superior, all this comes together as a clash of civilisations that is more likely to produce the result of indignity and radicalise politics in the wrong direction.
Would you consider not stoning women as morally superior than stoning women?
I agree that if you are a diplomat it may be not the right thing to do. That's where this all conversation started.
Brimstone wrote: With Islamic countries, Muslims can tend to think that women wearing a hijab is a sign of modestly, like we would see covering the breasts in the West. A man can walk around without a shirt, bare chested, but a woman can't (I'm not saying it's right, but a diplomat probably shouldn't be the one to walk around breasts hanging out trying to provoke and offend people to make a point).
I was waiting for this analogy, thanks. It's problematic. I believe that if women were to claim that is not right that men can walk around without a shirt while they can't, then I would admit that they are probably right. Or, at least, I would, if they wanted to do so at the beach, where wearing a shirt may be very uncomfortable.
they also think it costs her nothing, and that it prevents women from being raped because men can't control their lusts if they look upon a woman's hair.
I agree with this sentiment. If locking my door prevents many burglars from entering my house, then (since it's not a big deal for me) I should lock that door. The difficult part is to know where to draw the line. What if men thought women's eyes were provocative? (some actually do). Hijabs and burkas are often pretty uncomfortable and often these men don't want their women to cover their hair because they care about their safety ( which is still something women themselves should be in charge of), but because of irrational (mostly religious) reasons.
Let's put it this way: If women could decide whether to wear a headscarf or not and the problem were that if they decide not to wear it most men will lustily look at their hair, then I would either suggest them to 1) don't give a damn about those looks (easiest option) or 2) wear the headscarf, since it's not a big deal.
NonZeroSum wrote: How Child Beauty Pageants Got Weird
- http://www.vocativ.com/culture/uncategorized/child-beauty-pageants-got-weird/
Donald Trump's Creepy Stewardship of the Miss Teen USA Pageant
- huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-miss-teen-usa_us_57fe2cd3e4b0d505a46b1725
Interview with Rashida Jones on Her Porn Documentary 'Hot Girls Wanted'
- youtube.com/watch?v=PLYszpvyED4
Polyamory on the left; liberatory or predatory? By Kimberley Kreutzer
- toleratedindividuality.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/ployamory-off_our_backs.docx
I appreciate links and to other people's opinions, man. But could you try at least to quote the most important parts?
And of course she isn't not wearing the hijab for the right reasons - she's probably doing it to appeal to anti-Muslim bigots who would vote for the National Front.
I don't really care why she has done it. If a psychopath were to give away all of his money to needy children because he thought that that would be a good way of sending them to hell because, you know, money is bad, I would consider him to be a piece of shit, but I would still say that what he has done is right.
NonZeroSum wrote: I think its the height of arrogance to assume to know what over a 100 million women in the middle east want.
Is it the height of arrogance to assume that 56 billions animals don't want to die every year? These women can speak, I don't have to assume anything.
How you choose to dress is informed by what your culture values, what is aesthetically pleasing to yourself and others. Women and men can participate in excessively open or modest practices because of the values they're brought up to hold.
This describes why we dress as we dress. It doesn't describe why we should dress in a way instead of another.
The same way a gay Mormon man might feel cheated they had to stay modest and weren't allowed to experiment and figure out their sexuality early, so instead entered a loveless marriage.
That's because freedom is a trade. My freedom of shooting my gun out of my window goes against your freedom of walking in the street without being shot. Mormons stay modest because they think that that behavior results in a good outcome (heaven). If such a behavior is based on irrational premises I can still point it out and say that it's wrong.
Tuareg men wear a face veil, they differentiate meaning and tribe based on how its wrapped, they 'don't show their faces in public and feel it is a sign of respect to their elders.
Are they OK with it? If the answer is 'yes', then fine. To each his own. I am only saying that, if it were extremely hot and the elders forced them to wear a thick black veil because they believed that this could please their rain god, then I would point out that that is not the reason why it rains and since those men don't want to wear a veil, they could consider listening to them.
I have just realized this post is filled to the brim with thought experiments. Sorry for that.
