Philosophical Vegan Forum

vegan81vzla wrote:He does mention something about losing some teeth though.

From cavities, due to a fruit diet (sugar and acid), and improper dental hygiene (raw foodists tend to avoid modern toothpaste).

vegan81vzla wrote:So I am "guessing" here that Nikocado is blaming his lost teeth to his vegan diet (whatever that might be).

He is correct to blame it on the raw food doctrines. He wasn't blaming that on veganism in general, just specific bad advice.

vegan81vzla wrote:Why not blaming it to just poor dental hygiene?

That may have part of the blame, but even following standard dental hygiene advice it would have been hard to avoid cavities with such a diet.
You'd basically have to keep a glass of dissolved calcium carbonate in water next to you to rinse your mouth out with constantly to neutralize the acids to save your enamel from the erosion.

Due to the low nutrient density of these fruit diets -- particularly the unlimited ones -- people gorge on fruit constantly. It's not just three meals a day, it's impossible to brush after every one.

vegan81vzla wrote:To his lifetime of consuming animal products and its accumulative detrimental effects? Or to just natural body decay?

No, those had nothing to do with his tooth decay.

vegan81vzla wrote:No... Lets play the carnist logic and hope that one will be better off consuming animals... That's sooo vegan...

The only animal products he was talking about were sardines, for omega 3 and heme iron (mainly). I'm pretty sure he knows that won't fix tooth decay. He's done eating unlimited fruit, his tooth decay problems are of the past; it was just an example of the harm bad advice can do.

brimstoneSalad wrote:Did he start eating animal products? If so, which ones?

His concern is health; he has been following some very bad advice for a long time. That's indicated in the recidivism surveys.
Vegans need better health advice. None of this Freelee/McDougall etc. stuff.

Listening to the excerpts from UV's video, I was really struck by the fact that NA fell for this stuff hook, line and sinker (although I guess UV did too, which makes her a really good person to respond to him).

I know some lovely people who have been eating raw food for a long time. But I think only a minority of a minority would want/be able to eat that way long term. I think it's terribly unhealthy, pseudoscientific and ascetic. But I kind of hate to go after it, because I always assume most people can figure that out on their own anyway. But I guess I'm wrong.

Freelee was the first vegan YouTuber I ever saw (long before going vegan), and I thought her diet was insane. I don't know how anyone survives on a raw diet, even though I guess a few do.

I wish people would stop being so extreme and just eat a normal diet that happens to be vegan. But I guess that's not "magical" enough. TBH, I'm kind of sick of apologizing to other vegans for not eating 100% whole foods.

ModVegan wrote:I think it's terribly unhealthy, pseudoscientific and ascetic. But I kind of hate to go after it, because I always assume most people can figure that out on their own anyway. But I guess I'm wrong.

I hope you'll make a video on it, it could help a lot of your subscribers.

ModVegan wrote:I wish people would stop being so extreme and just eat a normal diet that happens to be vegan. But I guess that's not "magical" enough. TBH, I'm kind of sick of apologizing to other vegans for not eating 100% whole foods.

Right? And I can't understand why they're so hostile. It's not even an ethical thing. Or maybe they feel like it is, because they think advocating anything but whole foods is hurting people and hurting the vegan message?

I'd love to see you make a response to this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pksnvnVvQT4

He's kind of the pot calling the kettle black after making this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Js4dBWvWmI

Although it's nice that he's going after raw food myths, it's just so silly with how many he perpetuates himself (and how he misrepresents vegans who aren't WFPB or don't agree that it's good activism).
It's nice that he told his viewers not to attack her in that vid, though. He seems like a nice enough guy, just kind of drowning in the 100% WFPB kool-aid.

brimstoneSalad wrote: Right? And I can't understand why they're so hostile. It's not even an ethical thing. Or maybe they feel like it is, because they think advocating anything but whole foods is hurting people and hurting the vegan message?

brimstoneSalad wrote:I'd love to see you make a response to this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pksnvnVvQT4

I like some of his videos, but he's a little health-nutty for me. I do know a lovely couple here in Calgary that are disciples of McDougall/Esselstyn and WFPB is sustainable for them, because the wife literally would have died without it (she has pulmonary hypertension). There are a few chronic/deadly health conditions for which WFPB is very helpful. For those people, it's sustainable, because they kind of know that pretty much any inflammation from vegetable oils could make them sick. For normal, fit, healthy, people? A tough sell. Unless you're Mic, I guess.

brimstoneSalad wrote:He's kind of the pot calling the kettle black after making this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Js4dBWvWmI

-ish. I am just glad that he called her out. Esselstyn and Campbell do go after raw-foodists on a regular basis for being rather silly. I believe McDougall does too. I guess you have to draw a line somewhere!

ModVegan wrote:I do know a lovely couple here in Calgary that are disciples of McDougall/Esselstyn and WFPB is sustainable for them, because the wife literally would have died without it (she has pulmonary hypertension). There are a few chronic/deadly health conditions for which WFPB is very helpful.

Most of the intervention studies are confounded by not being isocaloric. Typically, people just do better by losing weight, and that can be done with calorie restriction with any kind of diet. Calories from polyunsaturated fat tend to be just as good or better than calories from starches and fruit.

But let's say the message is persuasive to these people: what tiny fraction of the population does that make up?
There's no reason at all for otherwise healthy people to follow these diets, and when we do outreach, shouldn't we aim to reach the majority rather than a fraction of a fraction of a percentage of the population?

Anyway, he is just back to full omnivorism, eating red meat and dairy products and all. I guess the social pressure is just too much for some

vegan81vzla wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2017 8:55 am Anyway, he is just back to full omnivorism, eating red meat and dairy products and all. I guess the social pressure is just too much for some

Maybe. Or a drama queen who was motivated by the green. It's a shame, but he certainly had no health argument for those behaviors.

There is a strong argument that he was not actually an ethical vegan; he apparently purchased and threw out animal products like noodle chicken flavor packets. And bought pets by mail order?
Kind of disturbing, but who knows what skeletons you'd find in any closet if you dig.

Either way (if he cared about animals or not), it's an important cautionary tale against crazy fad diets.

All I am saying is that he could have been cathegorized as an ethical vegan within the movement. I guess he just didn't understand it enough and got dragged back to eating from animals from the social pressure