I always go back to eating meat

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vegan81vzla
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Re: I always go back to eating meat

Post by vegan81vzla »

brimstoneSalad wrote:.
People who are vegan primarily due to concerns for animal suffering, animal rights, or the environment have cravings just as easily as those who eat vegan for health reasons.
Which it has been my point all along in this forum. For people individually to either: a) try veganism b) remain vegan or c) even consider veganism altogether, animal welfare is coompletely irrelevant. "Cravings" are a signal of addiction. And I use quotation marks, because it all comes to how people react to stimuli from their own bodies or even from external sources. Who is in control? Who tells you what to do? Is anyone really forcing you to eat something you might not want? Eating meat will fix your weakness feelings?
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: I always go back to eating meat

Post by brimstoneSalad »

vegan81vzla wrote: Which it has been my point all along in this forum. For people individually to either: a) try veganism b) remain vegan or c) even consider veganism altogether, animal welfare is coompletely irrelevant.
Having cravings is not the same as giving into them, and giving in once is not the same as giving up.
People remain vegan despite having cravings or even giving in and making mistakes now and then.

It has been demonstrated through extensive surveys that ethical reasons and concern for animal welfare help people keep a vegan diet longer. Health reasons are less likely to hold up in the long run. Caring about animals provides the motivation to "get back up" after stumbling.
vegan81vzla wrote:"Cravings" are a signal of addiction.
Many people have eating and food addictions. You will have the craving or addiction regardless of your reasons, but a strong reason (like concern for animals) can help in overcoming the addiction by continuing to work at it, by asking for advice like the original poster did, and by not giving up.

A smoker will crave cigarettes whether quitting for his or her children's health, or because cigarettes are a little expensive. But the former may be a stronger motivation to stick with it and fight the cravings, due to love of his or her children (like a love for animals can motivate vegans), and simple cost concerns can easily be ignored in the face of a strong craving.

You tell yourself what to do, but we have many competing voices. One of those is the craving/addiction. Your reasons for quitting have to be stronger or more resolute and permanent than the craving, and you'll beat it eventually.
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vegan81vzla
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Re: I always go back to eating meat

Post by vegan81vzla »

brimstoneSalad wrote:Having cravings is not the same as giving into them, and giving in once is not the same as giving up.
Evidently not for the person writting this post. He obviosly cannot overcome his cravings. And sure, giving in once might not be the same as giving up, but, again, the reason for one being vegan does not matter. One might say to be an "ethical" vegan, but if such person is going to give in everytime it feels like it, that says a lot about his "ethics"
brimstoneSalad wrote: People remain vegan despite having cravings or even giving in and making mistakes now and then.
There is no comparison between unknowingly consuming animal products, and consciously giving in to a craving. Two different things all together
brimstoneSalad wrote: It has been demonstrated through extensive surveys that ethical reasons and concern for animal welfare help people keep a vegan diet longer. Health reasons are less likely to hold up in the long run. Caring about animals provides the motivation to "get back up" after stumbling.
I wpuldd like to see those studies, otherwise it is just a "hear-say" argument for the sake of making a point, and the results of "such" study seem biased. I would have to disagree anyway. Religious reasons might be strong too, for example. Adventist adhere to their vegan diet without the need to be animal defenders.
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: I always go back to eating meat

Post by brimstoneSalad »

vegan81vzla wrote:
brimstoneSalad wrote:Having cravings is not the same as giving into them, and giving in once is not the same as giving up.
Evidently not for the person writting this post. He obviosly cannot overcome his cravings.
He's done it for three months, and with mock meats he will probably be able to.
vegan81vzla wrote:And sure, giving in once might not be the same as giving up, but, again, the reason for one being vegan does not matter.
Having good reasons can make one less likely to give up despite making a mistake or having a temporary lapse of will power.
vegan81vzla wrote:One might say to be an "ethical" vegan, but if such person is going to give in everytime it feels like it, that says a lot about his "ethics"
Saying things like that just makes you seem like an asshole. Not everybody is perfect. People make mistakes, and have bad days and get overwhelmed sometimes.
vegan81vzla wrote:There is no comparison between unknowingly consuming animal products, and consciously giving in to a craving. Two different things all together
There is between that and being unable to resist a craving. An accident is a lapse of knowledge or judgement, and that's a mistake too -- also one you can't control. It's not always about choosing to eat meat.
Conscious decisions and will power may only go so far for some people. As you said yourself, it's a kind of addition, which is when somebody will do something despite not wanting to.
vegan81vzla wrote: I wpuldd like to see those studies,
Ginny wrote an article on it available here:
http://freefromharm.org/animal-products-and-ethics/preventing-ex-vegans-the-power-of-ethics/
Ginny Messina wrote:The findings are relatively consistent regarding the power of ethics in helping people stay vegan or vegetarian.

For example, the Faunalytics Survey found that health was the only motivation for going vegetarian cited by a majority of ex-vegetarians. A study from Winthrop University in South Carolina also found that vegetarians who are motivated by ethics “demonstrated stronger feelings of conviction.” They ate fewer animal products, and were less likely to lapse (1).

Interestingly, a study from the Department of Psychology at the University of Surrey in the UK found that ethics was a stronger motivator than health for long term successful dietary change in general (2). The researchers said “…if an intervention could encourage individuals to be motivated by factors other than health (such as ethics)… such an approach would be more predictive of positive outcomes.”
Multiple surveys and studies confirm this. They're not biased, you can look into their methodology. The goal of the studies was to find out why people quit.

http://faunalytics.org/a-summary-of-faunalytics-study-of-current-and-former-vegetarians-and-vegans/
http://veg.ca/2015/02/11/tva-conducts-first-study-of-lapsed-vegetarians-in-canada/
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/animals-and-us/201106/why-do-most-vegetarians-go-back-eating-meat
vegan81vzla wrote:I would have to disagree anyway. Religious reasons might be strong too, for example. Adventist adhere to their vegan diet without the need to be animal defenders.
In don't think religious motivations were studied, or they might have been rolled into the ethical reasons depending on how people responded to the surveys (religious behavior is typically regarded as ethically motivated, eg: "Vegetarian advocacy is a powerful way to witness to Christ's love and compassion." http://www.all-creatures.org/cva/default.htm ).

You may not have met many Adventists. My experience has been that their decisions are made largely out of compassion and love for animals.

Anita Krajnc, while I don't think she is Adventist, argues that her witnessing to pigs is a religious duty; she's a devoted Christian and ethical vegan.
https://www.nationalreview.com/magazine ... save-water
She explained in court that she prefers the word “intervening” to “interfering,” since whatever the law says about Van Boekel’s property, she was simply living out her Christian obligation of compassion for animals, thereby serving the public good. It was an act of mercy, and in what kind of enterprise is it forbidden to be merciful? I was thirsty and you gave me drink. Nothing in the ring of those words to encourage help for an afflicted fellow creature? Do humans alone know thirst?
The main problem with religious motivations, at least those based on supernatural beliefs, is that they have logical problems in the form of the supernatural phenomenon appealed to. People tend more to be abandoning religion. Secular ethics are more stable in that regard, since they don't rely on any such impossible or implausible premises.
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Red
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Re: I always go back to eating meat

Post by Red »

vegan81vzla is a person who should be phased out. Discouraging people due giving in to their natural cravings, and calling them unethical, despite the fact that they're still making an effort.
Learning never exhausts the mind.
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Cloppy
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Re: I always go back to eating meat

Post by Cloppy »

RedAppleGP wrote:vegan81vzla is a person who should be phased out. Discouraging people due giving in to their natural cravings, and calling them unethical, despite the fact that they're still making an effort.
Yeah I agree. It's not anyone that can just be 100% vegan overnight and stay. Also I'm vegan pretty much for health reasons I don't have any feelings for animals which make it a bit more difficult and I was a smoker and stopped recently and try to not smoke again so that's 2 things.
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Re: I always go back to eating meat

Post by Red »

Cloppy wrote: Yeah I agree. It's not anyone that can just be 100% vegan overnight and stay. Also I'm vegan pretty much for health reasons I don't have any feelings for animals which make it a bit more difficult and I was a smoker and stopped recently and try to not smoke again so that's 2 things.
At least the attempt is there. If you see the issue and try to do something about it, even if you fail, that's better than just discarding it and not doing anything about it.

We need less vegans like vegan81vzla, who discourages people for trying but failing. That can potentially turn people away from veganism, since, other than making vegans look like pretentious cunts, makes transitioning to veganism more daunting if they do something wrong.
Learning never exhausts the mind.
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: I always go back to eating meat

Post by brimstoneSalad »

Cloppy wrote:Also I'm vegan pretty much for health reasons I don't have any feelings for animals which make it a bit more difficult and I was a smoker and stopped recently and try to not smoke again so that's 2 things.
Congratulations on giving up smoking!
Two things at once can potentially be harder.

If you can acquire some ethical reasons to add to your reasons to be vegan, though, it will help a lot (bolstering your convictions when you have cravings). Just like trying to quit smoking, if you can acquire ethical reasons (like second hand smoke harms others, and cigarette companies use your money to advertise and lure more people into smoking) it will help you when cravings are strong because you'll have an extra reason.
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Re: I always go back to eating meat

Post by ModVegan »

I actually find this really interesting. I've developed a surprising aversion to meat since going vegan, but I think that's because my family is also vegan, and we don't cook meat at home, so it's gradually become distasteful and even a little bit foreign.

But because you work in a restaurant, you're always around meat, so you wouldn't have time to develop the sort of aversion that many vegans and vegetarians have. So it makes complete sense to me that you would still have cravings for meat, because you're constantly exposed to it.

I'd agree with others that mock meats may be helpful. I also would recommend being sure to eat plenty of starches - especially satisfying foods like mashed potatoes. I'm a runner, and I've never felt hungry or protein deprived as a vegan, and I attribute that to getting massive amounts of carbs. I'd never even consider a vegan diet that didn't include tons of bread, rice, pasta, potatoes and beans. By the way, if you haven't tried it, Yves makes a "ground beef" substitute that is very meaty and makes an excellent addition to dishes like rice and beans. The texture is really excellent, and I'm sure as a chef you'll be able to figure out all sorts of creative uses for it ;) My husband always adds a bit of it to any dish with beans. It's great for tacos, too.
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: I always go back to eating meat

Post by brimstoneSalad »

That's awesome that your family is vegan ModVegan.

Avoiding may be an important part to losing those cravings quickly. I think the same can happen with people who quit smoking but whose friends continue to smoke. Sometimes you just need a little vacation away from the smells to de-normalize it.

Being full is a good tip too: when you're hungry, cravings are a hundred times worse.

Potatoes can be good for providing volume, but it's actually more the water content I think (not so much the starch). The same can be true for less starchy roots like lotus root. The water makes it fill your stomach, and the fiber slows it down so it can keep you full.

Rice, particularly white rice, never keeps me full for more than a few minutes because it just dissolves. It's also a rare grain (along with corn) that's legitimately low in protein. With wheat or potatoes you'll usually get about enough if you have a varied diet, but heavy rice eaters can fall short if they don't pay close attention to lysine and overall protein consumption.
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