Working with meat.

[vegan81vzla]

Like I said, I wouldn't eat it. I am just a vegan that does not have animal sentience as a list of priority for being vegan, nor regard animal live as sacred as if killing one is a punishable sin... I don't eat nor regard animals as valuable for us humans, but that is as far as I will go, I ain't vegan for them.

It seems you misunderstand the definition and purpose of veganism; it is to prevent unnecessary animal suffering, not just to arbitrarily and dogmatically not eat/use them.

If you are willing to kill an animal or cause it to suffer for no reason, but just won't eat it, that's not vegan.
It is vegetarian, however (vegetarians can hunt or kill animals for fun, or for no reason, they just can't eat them).

sorry, but the purpose of veganism is not to "prevent unnecessary animal suffering" that's nowhere stated in the definition. Here is my take on the matter...
https://theveganatheist.com/forum/viewt ... 677#p10677

[brimstoneSalad]

sorry, but the purpose of veganism is not to "prevent unnecessary animal suffering" that's nowhere stated in the definition. Here is my take on the matter...
https://theveganatheist.com/forum/viewt ... 677#p10677

You sound like a deontologist, or something like an objectivist.
You should read this thread: https://theveganatheist.com/forum/viewt ... ?f=7&t=785

Your philosophy is illogical and morally bankrupt.

People like you who think it's find to kill animals and cause them to suffer for no reason are not vegan.
You're a vegetarian (apparently for selfish reasons), and that's good too, but don't imagine you're technically vegan if you don't care about animal suffering.

"a philosophy and a way of living which seeks to exclude - as far as is possible and practical -
all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose,"

Killing animals is cruel. It violates their interests, and harms them. Would you like to be killed?
And in this context, "exploitation" is not simply harmless use or "ownership" (people who believe that come across as idiots who harm the vegan cause with irrational dogma) in the sense of a guardian, but connotes an unethical use which harms the animal's interest.

You aren't vegan. You're a vegetarian for selfish reasons. That's important too -- not all people are compassionate enough to do it for the animals.
If you call yourself vegan for practical purposes I don't have a problem with that, but you should stop trying to be the vegan police telling others they aren't vegan when you clearly are not a vegan. People in glass houses...

[vegan81vzla]

sorry, but the purpose of veganism is not to "prevent unnecessary animal suffering" that's nowhere stated in the definition. Here is my take on the matter...
https://theveganatheist.com/forum/viewt ... 677#p10677

You sound like a deontologist, or something like an objectivist.
You should read this thread: https://theveganatheist.com/forum/viewt ... ?f=7&t=785

Your philosophy is illogical and morally bankrupt.

People like you who think it's find to kill animals and cause them to suffer for no reason are not vegan.
You're a vegetarian (apparently for selfish reasons), and that's good too, but don't imagine you're technically vegan if you don't care about animal suffering.

"a philosophy and a way of living which seeks to exclude - as far as is possible and practical -
all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose,"

Killing animals is cruel. It violates their interests, and harms them. Would you like to be killed?
And in this context, "exploitation" is not simply harmless use or "ownership" (people who believe that come across as idiots who harm the vegan cause with irrational dogma) in the sense of a guardian, but connotes an unethical use which harms the animal's interest.

You aren't vegan. You're a vegetarian for selfish reasons. That's important too -- not all people are compassionate enough to do it for the animals.
If you call yourself vegan for practical purposes I don't have a problem with that, but you should stop trying to be the vegan police telling others they aren't vegan when you clearly are not a vegan. People in glass houses...

Killing animals is not cruel. Killing is messy in any case. I don't really think that animals have human interests in their minds. Animals could end up eating our crops if given the chance (hervibores) or eating us (carnivores) without giving us any second thought. Of course I wouldn't like to be killed, but a wolf or bear wouldn't care about my wishes, would it? So called superior "ethical" arguments are so lame and childish that they are laughable.

I AM vegan, and I don't think I am telling anyone that they are vegan or not. I am just stating what veganism really is, and how to read the definition properly. It does not say anything about animal suffering, sentience, nor putting their needs above ours. THAT logic is what harms the movement, not mine.

[PsYcHo]

Killing animals is not cruel. Killing is messy in any case. I don't really think that animals have human interests in their minds. Animals could end up eating our crops if given the chance (hervibores) or eating us (carnivores) without giving us any second thought. Of course I wouldn't like to be killed, but a wolf or bear wouldn't care about my wishes, would it? So called superior "ethical" arguments are so lame and childish that they are laughable.

I AM vegan, and I don't think I am telling anyone that they are vegan or not. I am just stating what veganism really is, and how to read the definition properly. It does not say anything about animal suffering, sentience, nor putting their needs above ours. THAT logic is what harms the movement, not mine.

I must say you seem to be basing your arguments strictly on angry activism, not concern for the animals or logic. I (currently) eat meat, and still think killing animals IS cruel, whether out of supposed necessity or convenience. (Feel free to point out my hypocrisy on this point. )

You call yourself vegan, but have no problem with killing animals, just eating them? If I stop eating meat, but still go to a farm and shoot chickens for target practice, can I call myself vegan?

[PsYcHo]

On another note, If you think your version of "Veganism" helps the argument, it is arguments like yours that made people like me think veganism was a joke. I now am actually actively trying to reduce my harm towards animals, because of ACCEPTING vegans who didn't just get angry and tell me how stupid I was, but instead GENTLY explained why they believe what they do, and allowed me to come to my own decisions.

[vegan81vzla]

Killing animals is not cruel. Killing is messy in any case. I don't really think that animals have human interests in their minds. Animals could end up eating our crops if given the chance (hervibores) or eating us (carnivores) without giving us any second thought. Of course I wouldn't like to be killed, but a wolf or bear wouldn't care about my wishes, would it? So called superior "ethical" arguments are so lame and childish that they are laughable.

I AM vegan, and I don't think I am telling anyone that they are vegan or not. I am just stating what veganism really is, and how to read the definition properly. It does not say anything about animal suffering, sentience, nor putting their needs above ours. THAT logic is what harms the movement, not mine.

I must say you seem to be basing your arguments strictly on angry activism, not concern for the animals or logic. I (currently) eat meat, and still think killing animals IS cruel, whether out of supposed necessity or convenience. (Feel free to point out my hypocrisy on this point. )

You call yourself vegan, but have no problem with killing animals, just eating them? If I stop eating meat, but still go to a farm and shoot chickens for target practice, can I call myself vegan?

If you are killing animals for fun (i.e. target practice) that might not very well be vegan. If you're killing crows that are eating crops that might feed your family, then so be it. There is no "thou shall not kill" dogma in the vegan definition, nor "thou shall not make suffer". There is "we vegans promote animal-free products for our human needs". Shoot a clay disc if you need to practice your target...

What is cruel in relation of the animal-human relationship is not the killing part, is perhaps all they go through their whole lives. The fact that we humans kill them systematically is just a direct consequence of our desire for their consumption which is what we must stop. The killing part might never stop (animal-human). Hopefully (human-human killing) will end one day.

[vegan81vzla]

On another note, If you think your version of "Veganism" helps the argument, it is arguments like yours that made people like me think veganism was a joke. I now am actually actively trying to reduce my harm towards animals, because of ACCEPTING vegans who didn't just get angry and tell me how stupid I was, but instead GENTLY explained why they believe what they do, and allowed me to come to my own decisions.

I very much doubt that "arguments like mine" made you think that veganism was a joke, because as far as I can tell, mine are very particular and not at all common. Animal sentience and their feelings is just an argument for veganism, not all what there is to veganism itself. There are more human interests at stake to argue for veganism, that most people tend to hear (environmental issues, health, social, etc)

[PsYcHo]

I very much doubt that "arguments like mine" made you think that veganism was a joke, because as far as I can tell, mine are very particular and not at all common. Animal sentience and their feelings is just an argument for veganism, not all what there is to veganism itself. There are more human interests at stake to argue for veganism, that most people tend to hear (environmental issues, health, social, etc)

I am very glad to hear you say that your arguments are not common. It still seems a lot of your reasoning comes from anger. How many times have you changed your position because an angry person argued with you?

[vegan81vzla]

I very much doubt that "arguments like mine" made you think that veganism was a joke, because as far as I can tell, mine are very particular and not at all common. Animal sentience and their feelings is just an argument for veganism, not all what there is to veganism itself. There are more human interests at stake to argue for veganism, that most people tend to hear (environmental issues, health, social, etc)

I am very glad to hear you say that your arguments are not common. It still seems a lot of your reasoning comes from anger. How many times have you changed your position because an angry person argued with you?

actually never. That has always been my position. I don't understand "animal love" arguements for veganism when the fact is that usually children fear animals from the very beginning, and animal love is something that happens only in very controlled environments and that have to be taught. It is ok for children to fear a dog, or a cat, it is a natural instinct that most people keep to adulthood. So ethical veganism arguments are not very sound to reality

[brimstoneSalad]

Killing animals is not cruel. Killing is messy in any case. I don't really think that animals have human interests in their minds.

This is a misconception. Not all humans even have "human interests" in their minds. Higher animals such as mammals and birds can plan for the future and learn, and their behavior demonstrates as clearly as human behavior that they don't want to die.
You might as well be a solipsist if you ignore the overwhelming evidence of animal intelligence and behavior.

The only thing animals DON'T care about are things like ownership, because they don't even know they are owned. As long as you are not harming them (a symbiosis like having a pet, and not like farming), then there's nothing non-vegan about it.

Animals could end up eating our crops if given the chance (hervibores) or eating us (carnivores) without giving us any second thought.

So? Humans will steal your food or kill you without a second thought in the wild too. Tribal societies of old were in regular states of warfare, and didn't trust others outside of their close tribes or families.

A domesticated animal can understand basic empathy and reciprocity in relationships. A domesticated dog or cat will not kill you without a second thought.

Of course I wouldn't like to be killed, but a wolf or bear wouldn't care about my wishes, would it?

Neither would a member of some uncivilized tribe from the ancient past -- European, Asian, African; ancient civilizations were brutal and without empathy for outsiders.

Compassion and empathy is something we have developed as a society; it's not innate to humans in any situation. It's something we do because we are able to, out of kindness and moral will. Is the the evolution of society.

So called superior "ethical" arguments are so lame and childish that they are laughable.

You have not shown how that is. You laugh at them because you don't understand them.
Was I correct that you're some kind of Randian objectivist?

I AM vegan, and I don't think I am telling anyone that they are vegan or not.

You aren't vegan, not by the definition.
And you ARE telling others they aren't vegan when you say people who own cats aren't vegan, or that the vegan definition means X (whatever you've imposed upon it, in your twisted definition) and that those who don't fit it aren't vegan.

I am just stating what veganism really is, and how to read the definition properly.

You're just wrong, possibly because your mind has been twisted by the pseudo-philosophy of Ayn Rand and others. Like with a theist, you're sticking to your dogma, and all you use to support it are bald assertions.

nor putting their needs above ours.

It doesn't say to put their needs above our own personal survival. That's why it says possible and practicable.
If you need medication that's not vegan, you take it. If you're starving and an animal is all there is to eat, you can eat it (you'd eat a human, too, in that situation).

Veganism is what we do by choice, to show compassion, when we have the power to do so. And veganism is the philosophy that we should do that, wherever possible and practicable.