The future of pets

[Shadow Fox]

You're offended on behalf of other animals that they may be harmed by vegans feeding them vegan diets, but not only don't give a shit about animals on factory farms (assuming that's where you buy from), you actually fund their torture and pay for them to die? .....................

Yeah, that sounds just like an argument from nature. You literally said that it 'is nature' as a reason to justify your position.

No, its not an argument from Nature. An argument from nature is because nature does it, it is ok for me to do it too. I made the statement that because it is in THEIR nature, its ok for them to do it and not force them to OUR standards.

Why would it be stupid to try to feed a lion a vegan diet if you could give that lion supplements to make up for missed nutrients?

Wow...you are a something if you think this. This just shows your ignorance when it comes how how living animals and biology works. I am not giving you a book long explaination of why carnivores need meat and why giving them pills would never satisfy their need for this food. Lions are not herbivores and you cannot turn a vegan because YOU don't think its right for animals to kill other animals.

Yeah, let's not stop shark attacks on humans. We wouldn't want to impose our moral beliefs on sharks, after all, that's immoral.

Almost sounds like a strawman or you misunderstand.


OK, then by your logic, why should a rabbit impose its need to survive on a wolf and just stand there and get eaten? Our need to survive has absolutely nothing to do with sharks eating other fish or smaller sea mammals. Animals eat other animals in nature and while humans are animals, we are not the same as the rest of them as we have the ability to inspect our own behaviors and change them. If a shark tries to eat us while we are in the water, both by our own standards and that of nature which makes us want to survive and not get eaten ourselves, we of course would do something about it. Just like how a rabbit runs away, like how a wolverine would fight back and how any other animal would deal with a predator or foe in the wild.

We stop sharks from harming humans because we want to survive as a species and keep them away from us. Just like any other creature would.

[EquALLity]

Interesting how you didn't respond to what I said about your hypocrisy etc....

No, its not an argument from Nature. An argument from nature is because nature does it, it is ok for me to do it too. I made the statement that because it is in THEIR nature, its ok for them to do it and not force them to OUR standards.

What? What do you mean because nature does it? Like if someone says, "The weather kills animals, so I can too?"?
I've never heard a meat-eater make that argument. They do say, however, "It's in my nature to eat meat, therefore it's ok." And that's an appeal to nature fallacy, like what you're saying. You're saying that something is natural and therefore right. You're making an appeal to nature to justify moral positions.

Wow...you are a something if you think this. This just shows your ignorance when it comes how how living animals and biology works. I am not giving you a book long explaination of why carnivores need meat and why giving them pills would never satisfy their need for this food. Lions are not herbivores and you cannot turn a vegan because YOU don't think its right for animals to kill other animals.

Yeah, liberate the lions! Liberate all the animals from the oppressive vegan somethings! Go animals! And then torture and kill them on factory farms.

Wouldn't want to impose our moral standards on animals by preventing them from doing harmful things if there are less harmful alternatives. That's immoral. Torturing and killing them, on the other hand, for personal pleasure, well... *shrug*.

Why are you saying that pills would never satisfy this need? How have you determined this?
Carnivores need nutrients 'naturally' found in meat. If we could mimic those nutrients in labs etc., I don't see how you can reasonably say that that it is an issue to use them.

And freegan meat is ethical meat, so even if carnivores actually had to eat meat because it's meat, we'd have an ethical alternative. Would you have an issue with this alternative?

OK, then by your logic, why should a rabbit impose its need to survive on a wolf and just stand there and get eaten? Our need to survive has absolutely nothing to do with sharks eating other fish or smaller sea mammals. Animals eat other animals in nature and while humans are animals, we are not the same as the rest of them as we have the ability to inspect our own behaviors and change them. If a shark tries to eat us while we are in the water, both by our own standards and that of nature which makes us want to survive and not get eaten ourselves, we of course would do something about it. Just like how a rabbit runs away, like how a wolverine would fight back and how any other animal would deal with a predator or foe in the wild.

You said that we shouldn't impose our moral values on non-human animals by stopping them from doing harmful things when there are less harmful alternatives.
I was trying to show how that doesn't make sense with the shark scenario, because obviously you wouldn't think that it would be wrong to impose our moral values on the shark by stopping the shark from harming a person.

I wasn't advocating for shark attacks. >.<

[Shadow Fox]

Interesting how you didn't respond to what I said about your hypocrisy etc....

because I am not being hypocritical, you are deliberately lying about what I said and creating strawmen out of it but comparing THIS argument to an argument for eating meat which this is not. It is an argument on forcing other animals, such as a animal whose BIOLOGICAL NEEDS, demand for the flesh of other animals and how it is unethical for you to force your vegan ideas on the rest of the animal kingdom....because other animals are not human beings you fucking retard. Yeah...retard..I am done being nice you your stupid lying ass.

What? What do you mean because nature does it? Like if someone says, "The weather kills animals, so I can too?"?
I've never heard a meat-eater make that argument. They do say, however, "It's in my nature to eat meat, therefore it's ok." And that's an appeal to nature fallacy, like what you're saying. You're saying that something is natural and therefore right. You're making an appeal to nature to justify moral positions.

all of this is a complete fucking lie, no where am I making an argument for its ok for humans to eat meat because this is about the future of pets and you are trying to argue to me that NO ANIMAL, on the entire planet has the right to eat another animal and that all lions, dogs, cats, and other mammals and the fish in the sea and the shark do not have the ethical right to eat other animals and we should force all of them to eat a vegan meal because of your retard faggot vegan philosophy. THAT IS WHAT I AM ARGUING YOU STUPID MOTHER FUCKING LIAR!!!

THIS IS NOT AN ARGUMENT OVER THE ETHICS OF HUMAN CONSUMING MEAT, YOU ARE JUST MAKING IT INTO THAT. ITS AN ARGUMENT THAT WE SHOULD NOT FORCE OUR VALUES ON THE REST OF NATURE AND HOW THE FUTURE OF PETS IN MY OPINION WON'T FUCKING CHANGE AND THAT OUR ANIMAL FRIENDS WILL STILL CONTINUE EATING MEAT WHETHER OR NOT YOU LIKE IT BECAUSE ITS IN THEIR BIOLOGY WHICH IS NOT AN ARGUMENT FROM NATURE.

Stupid lying ass mother fucker! GOD DAMN your so fucking infuriating! What else you got for me huh?!

Yeah, liberate the lions! Liberate all the animals from the oppressive vegan somethings! Go animals! And then torture and kill them on factory farms.

Wouldn't want to impose our moral standards on animals by preventing them from doing harmful things if there are less harmful alternatives. That's immoral. Torturing and killing them, on the other hand, for personal pleasure, well... *shrug*.

What the fuck does any of that have to do with forcing a lion to eat a vegan only meal its whole life? know what? It doesn't. You are trying to force other arguments that has absolutely nothing to do with the current one into this. Fuck you.

Why are you saying that pills would never satisfy this need? How have you determined this?

HAVE YOU?! Here is a fun science experiment for you! Go into a lions cage, live there for two years with the lions! Give them only mushrooms, cabbage and pills to suppliment their diet to eat AND SEE HOW FUCKING LONG IT TAKES YOU TO NOT GET EATEN...Damn your fucking retarded.

You said that we shouldn't impose our moral values on non-human animals by stopping them from doing harmful things when there are less harmful alternatives.
I was trying to show how that doesn't make sense with the shark scenario, because obviously you wouldn't think that it would be wrong to impose our moral values on the shark by stopping the shark from harming a person.

I wasn't advocating for shark attacks. >.<

It is wrong to take all the meat eating animals in the world and FEED THEM A FUCKING VEGAN DIET and try to force them to be like humans. We are not their natural prey so of course we are going to try to stop them as any other mammal would if they decide to try and come after us.

Stopping an attacker has nothing to do with morality. It has to do with protecting yourself. Forcing a lion to eat nothing but pills and veggies, forcing a dog to never ever ever lick its genitalia and instead use bars of soap and a bath tub, forcing birds to only fly across the cross walk because its jay walking/flying or trying to force birds away from no fly zones as created by our government to not fly in them..IS imposing our standards, morals and laws on them.

Giving a carnivorous animal a vegan diet is morally wrong, how can you not fucking see that?

[EquALLity]

because I am not being hypocritical, you are deliberately lying about what I said and creating strawmen out of it but comparing THIS argument to an argument for eating meat which this is not. It is an argument on forcing other animals, such as a animal whose BIOLOGICAL NEEDS, demand for the flesh of other animals and how it is unethical for you to force your vegan ideas on the rest of the animal kingdom

There can be multiple issues discussed in one argument...

It is totally valid to point out that it doesn't make sense to care about animals for this one reason, when you turn around and torture and kill them for personal pleasure.

Seems like you don't really care about the animals, and just don't like veganism. Or why do you cherry pick when you care about animals, and when you abuse them like this?

all of this is a complete fucking lie, no where am I making an argument for its ok for humans to eat meat because this is about the future of pets and you are trying to argue to me that NO ANIMAL, on the entire planet has the right to eat another animal and that all lions, dogs, cats, and other mammals and the fish in the sea and the shark do not have the ethical right to eat other animals and we should force all of them to eat a vegan meal because of your retard faggot vegan philosophy. THAT IS WHAT I AM ARGUING YOU STUPID MOTHER FUCKING LIAR!!!

I didn't say that you were making the argument that humans killing non-human animals arbitrarily is moral because it's natural; I said that your argument was an appeal to nature for the same reasons that one is.

You're saying that it's in certain animals' nature to eat meat, and that it is therefore wrong to try to prevent this. It's an appeal to nature.

THIS IS NOT AN ARGUMENT OVER THE ETHICS OF HUMAN CONSUMING MEAT, YOU ARE JUST MAKING IT INTO THAT. ITS AN ARGUMENT THAT WE SHOULD NOT FORCE OUR VALUES ON THE REST OF NATURE AND HOW THE FUTURE OF PETS IN MY OPINION WON'T FUCKING CHANGE AND THAT OUR ANIMAL FRIENDS WILL STILL CONTINUE EATING MEAT WHETHER OR NOT YOU LIKE IT BECAUSE ITS IN THEIR BIOLOGY WHICH IS NOT AN ARGUMENT FROM NATURE.

Our animal friends? Are those the ones you support killing for pleasure?

Of course that's an argument from nature. You are trying to justify something by saying, "It's in their biology".

What the fuck does any of that have to do with forcing a lion to eat a vegan only meal its whole life? know what? It doesn't. You are trying to force other arguments that has absolutely nothing to do with the current one into this. Fuck you.

Again, more than one thing can be discussed at a time.

And it does have to do with the current one. They are both about ethics regarding animals, for one thing. Also, the reason I support feeding animals vegan when possible is because of the immorality that comes with harming sentient creatures.

Also, you seem to be suggesting that it's oppressive to animals for vegans to force our way of living on animals by preventing them from causing harm for no good reason. It's hypocritical to then turn around and kill and torture those animals, forcing your way of life on them, in a way that actually causes harm.

HAVE YOU?! Here is a fun science experiment for you! Go into a lions cage, live there for two years with the lions! Give them only mushrooms, cabbage and pills to suppliment their diet to eat AND SEE HOW FUCKING LONG IT TAKES YOU TO NOT GET EATEN...Damn your fucking retarded.

This isn't about whether or not animals may want to eat other animals, or whether or not they will without any kind of training, it's about whether or not they can sustain themselves with those foods or not and be healthy.

It is wrong to take all the meat eating animals in the world and FEED THEM A FUCKING VEGAN DIET and try to force them to be like humans. We are not their natural prey so of course we are going to try to stop them as any other mammal would if they decide to try and come after us.

You still don't seem to be getting my point. I was using that example to show why wanting to impose values on non-human animals =/= immoral.

Stopping an attacker has nothing to do with morality. It has to do with protecting yourself.

Morality shouldn't just get thrown out the window when it comes to protecting yourself.

Forcing a lion to eat nothing but pills and veggies, forcing a dog to never ever ever lick its genitalia and instead use bars of soap and a bath tub, forcing birds to only fly across the cross walk because its jay walking/flying or trying to force birds away from no fly zones as created by our government to not fly in them..IS imposing our standards, morals and laws on them.

In those examples you gave as analogies, nothing immoral is happening, so they're not fitting.

It's like saying, "Forcing humans to not rape each other, forcing humans to listen to music, forcing humans to look at the sky, forcing humans to read, are ways of imposing your way of life on them! That's immoral. How do you not fucking see that?"

[Cirion Spellbinder]

Wait... Obligate carnivores can digest plant life? I thought they could, but that it was largely unhealthy or takes some getting used to for them? Can you cite a source or two which shows they can do this?

[Shadow Fox]

[quote="EquALLity"][/quote]


I am a vegi eater, I have a few things of meat left in the fridge. The argument is "is it ok for humans to force ALL living creatures in the entire world (or) thier pets to be a vegan like they are..

...adding other arguments in an conversation that does not have anything to do with

This is my argument for pets or other animals and forcing them to be a vegan like we are...(or you anyway..I am a vegetarian with the last few bits of meat left to go before I make the full switch) ...this goes for cats and dogs and any other animal that needs meat or meat nutrients to live.
No where in my argument did I leave anything open for any other argument then this. You have committed the red herring fallacy.



http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y194/A ... rvg8sv.png
....for some reason spoiler tags don't work. So just copy and past link.

[brimstoneSalad]

You're offended on behalf of other animals that they may be harmed by vegans feeding them vegan diets, but not only don't give a shit about animals on factory farms (assuming that's where you buy from), you actually fund their torture and pay for them to die? .....................

Yeah, that sounds just like an argument from nature. You literally said that it 'is nature' as a reason to justify your position.

No, its not an argument from Nature. An argument from nature is because nature does it, it is ok for me to do it too. I made the statement that because it is in THEIR nature, its ok for them to do it and not force them to OUR standards.

Shadow Fox, you are misusing the quote function. It makes your posts very difficult (almost impossible) to read. Can you tell what EquALLity wrote, and what you did? Because most readers will not be able to.

Compare to EquALLity's posts, that are formatted legibly.

Please read the forum rules, and follow them: https://theveganatheist.com/forum/viewt ... p=224#p224
Please edit your posts to correct the problem so I know you understand.

Further violations like this may result in banning. If you make a mistake with the quote function occasionally, that's fine, but this is way overboard on lazy formatting and it is affecting the legibility of the forum. You can always edit your posts to fix formatting issues like this.

Ask if you have any questions, or don't understand how the quote function works. Somebody will help you.

[garrethdsouza]

I think this is a somewhat common response from individuals who are ignorant about nutrition science and scientific consensus on it.

All that is required for any animal to thrive including humans is that their nutritional needs have to be met and these are very specific nutrients including:
Essential fats, amiino acids (proteins), carbohydrates, minerals and vitamins.

Different species often have differences in what nutrients need to be in their diet. Example: AFAIK dogs and cats don't produce their own vitamin D and can't use the yeast derived vit d2 but only vit d3 unlike humans that can use both. Cats additionally require the nutrient taurine which the other two don't.

As long as all nutritional RDA needs are met in a diet it is a perfectly nutritionally acceptable diet and it won't make any difference to the animals health where the source is from. That is the scientific consensus on the issue as far as nutrition science is concerned.

Dogs thrive on such balanced vegan diets as long as their additional nutritional needs have been met including but d3 and to an extent its also possible food cats AFAIK. If I'm not wrong the oldest dog was fed on a plant based diet.

This uninformed logic that they are "carnivores" and therefore should only be fed meat , its a non sequitur, its ignorant of the very basics of nutrition and it isn't the scientific consensus at all. Going against scientific consensus is the realm of creationists, anti vaxxers and climate change deniers so saying that they should not be fed plant based despite it being perfectly nutritionally acceptable scientifically is being anti science here.

There's no reason to inflict suffering on others when you can meet your nutritional needs through alternatives. That's what veganism is about. B12 supplements were the game changer for humans that removed any need for dependency on animal products.

B12 + vit d3 supplements, and this + taurine are the game changers for dogs and cats respectively obviating any need for dependency on animal products for these pets as well.

Idk are you a vegan? Have you ever used cronometer? Think about the nutrients you see in the list, for pets you'd just need a specifically vit d3 (dogs) instead of just vitamin d and additionally taurine for cats. AFAIK That's it really

It's not going to lead to changes in their behavior at all. Whether you feed them animal products or plant based, they weren't hunting for their food to begin with so its not going to change their behavior.


Edit: more comprehensive take on it. http://www.peta.org/living/companion-an ... cats-dogs/

[brimstoneSalad]

All that is required for any animal to thrive including humans is that their nutritional needs have to be met and these are very specific nutrients including:
Essential fats, amiino acids (proteins), carbohydrates, minerals and vitamins.

Not just that; they also need to avoid consuming things that are particularly harmful for them.

E.g. for dogs, even if chocolate might meet their nutritional needs, it could also make them very sick. Same with allium vegetables like too much garlic or onion.
Things that humans can eat are not always what non-humans can eat, just as something may be poisonous for us, but fine for another animal.

So, across species lines, things can be complicated also by the things necessary to avoid.

Avoid things on a short list and feed most dogs a well rounded diet with the same B-12 and d3 supplements you would take, and feeding a dog vegan is very easy -- AND better for the dog's long term health.
The only dogs who may have trouble on a vegan diet are very large breed dogs as puppies, who just need some additional amino acid supplementation (creatine, I believe) because they grow too fast.
Anybody who suggests that most dogs can't or shouldn't eat vegan is a moron.

Cats, however, have very sensitive urinary tracts (mainly male cats, female cats are pretty much fine). That sensitivity means stone formation and blockage if male cats consume too many oxalates, or too much magnesium, and have the wrong urine pH.

Unfortunately, existing vegan cat food brands are of dubious quality, and may not be adequate at all for male cats.

See: http://www.vegancats.com/veganfaq.php#1070

There should be a good vegan cat food on the market, but it doesn't seem to be the case yet. If you want to succeed at it, you kind of have to take your cat's nutrition into your own hands, and that's a lot of work for many cat owners.

Cats may also have difficulty with too much fiber or carbohydrates, although that's another issue

[riddler]

Pets have been bred to please humans. Many pets are abandoned by irresponsible owners. Humane groups rescue them. I have rescued many dogs and cats over the years. It would be kinder not to domesticate any animals. Just as slaves were bred, animals are bred. Allowing domesticated animals to return to the wild would take centuries. Yet, it can be done. Just as slaves were set free, and had to learn to live in freedom, domesticated animals could learn to live in the wild. I will certainly shepherd my current pets -- all rescues -- and rescue others that have been abandoned. However, I have never supported pet breeding and will continue to decry this practice. Change is never easy, but eliminating human use of all animals, whether as pets, zoo exhibits, recreation, etc., is the goal of veganism.