Hunting- Cheaper?

[Jebus]

He is a perfect example of a vegan advocate that would be better off shunting up.

Do you really mean that? I can't think of any vegan (except perhaps Donald Watson) who has contributed more to the movement than Gary Yourofsky.

[garrethdsouza]

Yourovsky has said some rather wonderful things. Here's unnatural vegan's take opn a bit https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NU-xuTW-eos

[brimstoneSalad]

However I found a related wiki page suggesting that many members of the Nazi party where in favour of animal rights.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hit ... etarianism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_we ... zi_Germany

This is true, some of them were. So were Gandhi and Einstein (basically Hitler's German arch nemesis) and many others. Animal rights was a popular topic in Germany at the time, and it was a strong platform of compassion.

The Nazis weren't worried about non-huaman animals because they didn't pose a threat and their genes couldn't mix with humans to "pollute" Aryan blood.

You may note that, for this reason (the support of animal rights by Hitler), a lot of neo-nazis today are also into veganism. It's a real thing. There's even a neo-nazi cooking show.
We had one of them on the forum a while back. Although many people thought he was a troll, I don't know.

[bobo0100]

Do you really mean that? I can't think of any vegan (except perhaps Donald Watson) who has contributed more to the movement than Gary Yourofsky.

Gary has only been a mainstream vegan figure for 3 years or so, and he has no doubt contributed to making many people go vegan. However his has completely failed to take a sceptical look at any of the arguments for or against veganism (B12). Not only this but his affirmation of the ALF, and crimes in his pasts give an extremest view of the vegan movement. Finally the attitude he takes to non vegans, its well known that he has completely cut himself off from his family, and he seems to walk the fine line between abusive and non-abusive in his lectures. Ultimately the degree to which he has contributed to the movement is secondary to his non ration approach, and I sincerely hope rational advocates like TVA and Peter Singar leave quarks like Gary in there shadow.

[SkepticalGorilla1985]

I don't know where you're from, but for me hunting is not a cheap alternative. Not to mention unnecassary and insustainable if everyone was doing it to feed themselves. I've always been told that is was all about population control, but I am starting to wonder if that might be unlikely. I would have to do more research on that...

[Shadow Fox]

Everyone in the country hunting for their food and animal parts they need is how the Carrier Pigeon and dodo went away. I don't support mass hunting.

[bobo0100]

Although I agree with your conclusion, I don't think your arguments is very good. The mass hunting that has caused animals like the dodo bird to become extinct is very different from the strongly controlled dear hunting. There may be examples of hunting that do risk the extinction of a species but the fact that there are examples of hunting that will not lead to such a result renders the case moot in regards to such cases.

If you meant to argue against "mass-hunting" in the sense of sustaining the population of america who live by the standard american diet all year round, than your argument would hold water, but only against a straw men.

[Shadow Fox]

Although I agree with your conclusion, I don't think your arguments is very good. The mass hunting that has caused animals like the dodo bird to become extinct is very different from the strongly controlled dear hunting. There may be examples of hunting that do risk the extinction of a species but the fact that there are examples of hunting that will not lead to such a result renders the case moot in regards to such cases.

If you meant to argue against "mass-hunting" in the sense of sustaining the population of america who live by the standard american diet all year round, than your argument would hold water, but only against a straw men.

No, its no strawman. It is the logical conclusion from what the initial argument is. That hunting being a cheaper alternative then buying food from a grocery store.

My point is that it is a dangerous way to think, because ( as per my comment) If everyone did it, and no, only a very small percent of Americans hunt each year and the limits to what they do are limited by the government agencies in charge of that sort of thing. Then we would end up killing all the deer and other animals off like the ones mentioned, because in order for it to be a sustainable alternative to grocery stores, your family would have to do it all year around and so wouldn't everyone else's, just like we all did in the past when there were a massive number of fewer people in the u.s.

My argument can be described as a slippery slope, but not really a strawman as the initial argument stats that hunting is better then a grocery store and implies everyone to do it.

At least that is what I read from the comment in the op post.

[bobo0100]

Yeah I think your right. It was a while since I read the comment in question. I really need to start refreshing myself in what's been said before I start arguing.

[Joel.LM]

I just want to put out this disclaimer before I post. This is my own experience, Not something I have read, No speculation, this is me, this is what I have lived.

In my intro, I stated that I am Pro hunting, that Hunting often is cheaper, and that even in Canada some people do not have the option to go vegan. brimstoneSalad pointed out that this is an infrastructure problem. He is right, and I agree with him, but it still does not change the fact that it is a problem. A problem that still hasn't been solved, that probably wont be solved for a long time (We all know how difficult it is to have government make meaningful, necessary changes.). So the problem still remains, thus these people do not currently have the means to go Vegan. I'll start off with my story as an example, then ill move on to something maybe a bit more tangible.

I come from the north, I wont say exactly where but I'm sure you will be able to peace it together with some of the examples i will give. Anyways, I grew up in a Mining, hunting, trapping town. Living conditions were what a lot of people today would consider substandard, everyday was a camping trip. Water delivery (which meant water rationing), Wood heat, unstable power (which meant Oil lamps and candles), an outhouse, and Long winters with no way out. These are all things you deal with when you live in a remote location. I no longer live their, so I no longer have to deal with this stuff. The nearest town with a grocery store was a 5 hr drive, when the road conditions where good. Nearest city to that town is 24hrs drive. Growing up, we would try and do two shops, one when the road would clear up and we would stock up for the summer and another one during fall just before the winter. As I said, food would come from 24hrs away, trucked up or flown up, but that meant that the food in the grocery stores was already more expensive then southern Canada, transportation cost where taxed on, then of course the grocery store would place a markup on it. At the end of the day, we would be a good 50-70% more expensive then Quebec. (I'm comparing to Quebec because I remember my father ranting on how much cheaper it was when we would go down to visit my grandparents). Anyways it was just not feasible to stock up on everything we needed at the grocery store, so every year we would go and hunt for 1 moose. That would usually be enough to carry us threw winter with all the other supplies we had purchase, canned or dried for the winter. Was it cheaper to hunt, Yes, yes and again yes. Just as an example, If I were to buy 150 pounds of pork, about half a side, it would set me back about 300$ canadian, A moose on average yields about 900lb of meat, this is net weight. Now comparing it to pork price your looking at about 1800$. all this would fit nice and neat in a chest freezer. In comparison i don't think im fitting 900lb of potatoes in my freezer. Just want to make a note here that, we would not keep 900lb to our self, often it would get distributed to other members of the community who were unable to hunt.

The cost of the hunt, Let see, well the guns, 800$ but you have paid that off after your first hunt,
The ammunition $25 for a brick of 20.
Your knife and "equipment" often times purchased long ago for other things so, i will not incorporate it, in the price.
Transportation, You're already in the woods, use your legs, Sometimes we would borrow a horse at the cost of some the bounty.
time, Usually 24hrs.

Prepping, Cutting, storing excluding the bleeding, curing, smoking or drying, usually gets done in 8-12hrs. Over all, even with the time put in, Much cheaper then purchasing from a grocery store or local farmer. Essentially the start up cost was high, but unless you were moving to this location from a big city and weren't already equipped, you most likely already had the majority of what was required.

while it may not be cheaper for everyone, in our case it was, and if i still lived their, it probably still would be. anyways, I could write a lot more on the subject, just trying to give you a generalized view. I will answer questions as best as I can.

Now on the second part of my post

http://www.chatelaine.com/living/when-5 ... or-a-week/

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/nun ... -1.2929573

I'm using this as an example, because it's recent, it's relevant and close to home. I also spent 8 months last year working in nunavut, so i know how bad it is there. Not only are the food prices really freakishly high but their is also a very high rate of poverty. A lot of the friends I made there who are Inuktitut would not be able to survive there with out the ability to hunt. I maintain that becoming Vegan is a choice, but not only that, in some parts of the world it's a privilege.