Veganism and anticaptialism

[Red]

From a meme I made on reddit:
https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments ... o_me_once/

This is a response to a Reddit user who has taken issue with my Reddit meme, and claims that it only makes sense to be anticapitalist if you are vegan. I'm going to try explaining why that's incorrect.

For someone who claims to have had this conversation many times before you really don't appear to offer intellectually stimulating responses or even good ones

I've seen all these arguments before when I debate with self-proclaimed Marxists, the reason why they're easy to argue against is that for the vast majority of their claims, they don't provide any evidence whatsoever (they'll usually just appeal to something Marx said, as if it's correct; when I ask for evidence of the claim I almost never get any). Most anticapitalist claims are quite ignorant in my experience.

On to your post, which is more of the same.

LOL especially given you avoided all the philosophy and technical aspects of my post (which is understandable)

Don't flatter yourself, I'm quite well-read on these topics. I'll try educating you on them you're open to it.

1.) No one has said that under a capitalist system it's impossible to be vegan. It is possible, I was saying it's just impotent, trite, and philosophically lazy and ethically simplistic and unrealistic which the current numbers demonstrate

Then what would be "useful" to you? The end goal ought to be getting people to buy less animal products. Nothing more, nothing less. You don't need to do away with capitalism to achieve this.

You can be a leftist-vegan if you want, politics is a different issue, but please explain to me how making veganism an anticapitalist position helps at all (because you don't really offer any explanation in your post other than rhetoric).

Practical vegans understand that we ought to go the way of the evidence. You and other anarchists fail to provide evidence that your system would work better than the system we have now, all you're offering is what you think society ought to be like.

I.e. total vegan population, 80-84% of people failing vegan diets,

And how is that capitalism's fault exactly? How would dissolving capitalism reduce these numbers?

the longevity research crowd advocating for pescatarian diets, and that study that came out showing that plant based diets with certain types of fish and shellfish performing equally to better than a vegan diet in terms of envio impact.

I'm not sure which studies you're referring to, but for every study that says how veganism is bad or how meat is good, there will always be the scientific consensus that disagrees with both of these (in the same way companies can put out climate change denial propaganda, that doesn't change the consensus).

It has less to do with capitalism, and more people just wanting to confirm what they want to be true. That's just human nature.

People go vegan under capitalism just not at enough of a rate to mean anything given the envio crisis and not enough people stay vegan.

OK, so demonstrate how anarchism would solve this problem. How would the demand for animal products go down in such a society?

2.) No one said anarchism was the end goal of veganism so no idea why that's brought up its not relevant at all

It would kind of have to be the logical conclusion according to you, if you think veganism that isn't anticaptialist is "impotent."

also anarchism isn't just a lack of a state if you read the actual texts like stirner it's a philosophy against hierarchy. That hierarchy includes the state, religion, patriarchy, specisism, heteronormantivity. One can make many sound theoretical arguments against those who only focus on the state as missing the point completely such as yourself.

I'm aware of what anarchists want, I used to identify as one to.

3.) "Not just vegans" congrats that means very little. Flexatarian or weekend vegan isn't the end goal of veganism and those people are reducing to feel ethically superior while still having their cake and eating it too.

So more people reducing meat consumption isn't a good thing? You think that does nothing to reduce demand for animal products?

Stop conflating YOUR goals and definitions with what veganism actually is as an ethical philosophy. Veganism is not for you to redefine to suit your own political agenda.

"More people then ever" and? It doesn't mean that the world will go vegan the % of population is still small,

I live in the world as it is, not as it should be. Of course, yes, it'd be perfect if everyone would go vegan, but that isn't a reasonable expectation, at least not at this point in time. If I convince 700 people to eliminate meat consumption once per week, that's like converting 100 vegans.

and many of those companies are owned or bought out by meat making ones. KFC vegan nuggets isn't some huge step for progress it's capitalism fucking the movement and turning it into neo-liberal individualistic choice focusing on the individual over the system

Oh boy, you're one of those "Plant-based capitalism" types. One of the most ignorant breeds of vegan out there.
We've had a discussion on this already.
http://philosophicalvegan.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6665

4.) "This concept may seen incomprehensible to you" My post touched on economics and markets far more in depth then you did and have and I've already shown a greater understanding than you.

You're a leftist, that's not possible. You don't just read some leftist economic theory and claim you anything about economics, that's akin to a flat earther reading pro flat earth arguments than claiming to have a good understanding of physics.

I said I'm an accelerationist aka pro-market and anti-capitalist as once again markets are not capitalism and capitalism is not just markets go read the economist braudel.

Summarize it.

Also please "market forces changing" you come off as a engineering student/stem student whose understanding of econ comes from reading supply n demand and marginalism off wiki go take some econ courses or read the actual different schools texts.

By "take some econ courses" I know you mean you want me to read some Marxist crap, but hey since I'm an engineering student it isn't possible for me to understand fields outside of STEM, right (flattered you crept my reddit account though).

Yes market forces change (deteritorialization) but we also see a reuterutorialization that simultaneously occurs which we see with other radical movements such as blm or pride in which their ability to offer radical change is snuffed out due to corporationzation and we see this happening with veganism.

BLM died out because people stopped giving a shit about it. And I don't see any corporations try to crush trans and gay rights, in fact, a big company acting against the pride movement is ruining their PR. These movements have not been slowed down because of corporations, stop with the conspiracy theories.

The rest of your response here is laughable "might be singled out" aka speculation.

If almost no one is doing something considered very unethical, would there not be stigmatization against people that go out of their way to actually do that unethical thing?

"Obviously unethical" the vast majority of humans are not vegan so they wouldn't agree with this

If most people are not engaging in the unethical behavior, it's much easier to point out. In the same way the west is quick to condemn China's dog meat festival, yet not consider the ethical problems with their own behavior.

morality isn't objective.

Oh boy...
If morality isn't objective, then who are you to say that your ideas of ethics are what ought to be?
We can start a new topic, and show how morality is objective.

Yes more people may try it or want to try said products but again the market is still small and while growing doesn't mean it will eventually topple the animal product market in fact you'll see not only black markets but also an increase in "natural/real meat" markets as capitalism only cares for profit maximization and capital flows.

If these big corporations own the mock meat industry, they won't have any incentive to undermine them like they used to. They go with consumer demand, which is something we have to help change, to help the big companies change.
Gary Yourofsky is kind of a dumbass but he's spot on here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIIF3Y3qMLg

5.) This applies to your support for capitalism as well. Anarchism is an ethical position against hierarchy so for a society to be truly anarchist specisism must fall. This doesn't apply for capitalism

A consequentialist doesn't care about political labels, just what's shown to be the right thing to do.

6.) No one here has said things haven't changed so no idea why you made this point can you stick to the convo at hand please and since you are fucking stupid go read the essay "kant, capital, and the prohibition of incest" by nick land or "the wretched of the earth" by fanon so you can see how capitalism is linked with racism and how irregardless of progress white supremacy is inherently built into it

Nick Land, huh? Very unusual to cite him, since he's guy who developed the antiegalitarian idea of the dark enlightenment.
You've lost your credibility to me.

Also, protip, if you're gonna call people who disagree with you "so fucking stupid," don't type like someone who actually is so fucking stupid (grammar and spelling count). Unless you can't help it?

7.) "A vegan society can exist under capitalism" really? Prove it in a non theoretical/thought experiment way. Demonstrate it.

Simple, get people to buy vegan foods. It's happening right now, under this capitalist system, and as human population grows, we probably won't really have much of a choice but TO be vegan. If you're an accelerationist as far as that's concerned, then you actually got something right for once!
It's basically because there's no reason to see why it wouldn't happen. Big changes happen under such a system, like when we abolished slavery.

"What is real is possible and what is possible is real" - German post-hegelian max stirner aka as of the moment it's not possible for a vegan society to exist under capitalism or it would be happening

I'm gonna respond with a quote from Voltaire:

A witty saying proves nothing.

Might as well argue, as someone in 1850s United States that the abolishment of slavery won't happen otherwise it would have happened already.

Throughout your whole post I don't think you made a single actual argument (rhetoric and arguments are not the same thing necessarily) and provided no evidence, and all of your points weren't difficult to refute, just annoying. As I anticipated.

[Red]

Huh I can't find his comment now to link it, I think a mod removed it. Still, good to have here for posterity.

[teo123]

I hope this guy does not go vegan, because people like this guy going vegan give veganism a bad name.

[FredVegrox]

I really hope for anyone to go vegan, while there are vegans whose views can be corrected. I am not really for capitalism, but I am not for communism either. I am very critical of all that is destructive toward this earth. All systems of animal use is destructive toward the environments of this earth, along with all the systems of civilization. Civilization has always been exploiting and destructive, to environments and to other people beyond it, and civilization will always be that way. Alternatives with real sustainability are needed, these must be apart from civilization.

[Red]

I really hope for anyone to go vegan, while there are vegans whose views can be corrected.

It really all depends on many things; The reason why someone went vegan might be the roadblock. If someone went vegan for political reasons, especially extremist ones, you'd have to go through the trouble of correcting those views first (not an easy task).

I am not really for capitalism, but I am not for communism either. I am very critical of all that is destructive toward this earth. All systems of animal use is destructive toward the environments of this earth, along with all the systems of civilization. Civilization has always been exploiting and destructive, to environments and to other people beyond it, and civilization will always be that way. Alternatives with real sustainability are needed, these must be apart from civilization.

I mostly agree with what you said (although I'm less pessimistic of civilization's effect on the environment), and anyone who claims that their different political system will magically solve environmental destruction has a huge burden of proof to meet.

However, I am not sure what you mean by "Alternatives with real sustainability are needed, these must be apart from civilization.." What do you mean by that latter part?

[teo123]

anyone who claims that their different political system will magically solve environmental destruction has a huge burden of proof to meet.

I couldn't agree more. Many libertarians on Internet forums are convinced that meat industry problems such as pumping animals with antibiotics will disappear once the government stops intervening. I am not saying that is not true, but I fail to see any reason to think that apart from wishful thinking.

[Kwashiorkor]

Marxists have got no right to be vegan or vegetarian. To them veganism would be bourgeois and oppressive to their precious working class thugs (most of who aren't Marxists).

[FredVegrox]

I really hope for anyone to go vegan, while there are vegans whose views can be corrected.

It really all depends on many things; The reason why someone went vegan might be the roadblock. If someone went vegan for political reasons, especially extremist ones, you'd have to go through the trouble of correcting those views first (not an easy task).

I am not really for capitalism, but I am not for communism either. I am very critical of all that is destructive toward this earth. All systems of animal use is destructive toward the environments of this earth, along with all the systems of civilization. Civilization has always been exploiting and destructive, to environments and to other people beyond it, and civilization will always be that way. Alternatives with real sustainability are needed, these must be apart from civilization.

I mostly agree with what you said (although I'm less pessimistic of civilization's effect on the environment), and anyone who claims that their different political system will magically solve environmental destruction has a huge burden of proof to meet.

However, I am not sure what you mean by "Alternatives with real sustainability are needed, these must be apart from civilization.." What do you mean by that latter part?

Civilization is not sustainable in this world, taking from it more and more as it grows, which is its only direction, until its collapse. The alternative I know about is people living in small communities with simpler living, as people had always lived without civilization before, growing things to be sustainable remaining independent.

[Red]

Civilization is not sustainable in this world, taking from it more and more as it grows, which is its only direction, until its collapse. The alternative I know about is people living in small communities with simpler living, as people had always lived without civilization before, growing things to be sustainable remaining independent.

I disagree. I firmly believe that the reason why we have so many envioronmental woes is not due to civilization or a rising poplation necessarily, it's because of our extremely unsustainable ways we are continuing to live. We already have a huge waste of food by giving most of it to livestock, which is also results in an excessive carbon footprint, and if we switch our energy to renewables and nuclear power (especially the latter), use GM technology to grow more food more efficiently, invest in more public transportation, that'd cut down our emissions to basically none.

It might take a while for this stuff to become reality, but it is certainly possible to have civilization and not hurt the environment.

Ultimately, I don't see a reason why we can't easily support the world's population and thensome without hurting the environment. We can have both a large population with a high quality of life and a minimal environmental impact.

[Lay Vegan]

Anti-capitalism is antithetical to veganism by definition.

Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals.

Veganism, (at least as an ethical choice) wouldn't make any sense outside of the the context of supply/demand. In practice, it means boycotting harmful businesses and promoting personal consumer choices that influence businesses to produce alternative goods. Without this context, our actions become little more than vacuous posturing.

As far as "capitalism should be abolished and replaced with x" is concerned... the other economic models are at "best" untested, or at worst have failed time and time again.

I wonder if capitalism could someday be replaced with a better system.