Footsoldier vs Theo on the Definition of Veganism

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NonZeroSum
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Re: Footsoldier vs Theo on the Definition of Veganism

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brimstoneSalad wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 2:10 pmI'm not clear on why you think that's a problem. It doesn't have to do everything and be an all inclusive and complete ethical theory to be a philosophy and way of living.
I agree, I don't think it's desirable or possible, so it's simply a blank philosophical commitment where different vegans beliefs in why they desire to boycott animal products can be diametrically opposed. So, even though it's involes a philosophical principle and way of living, what's more important for what role the word plays is a descripter of a behaviour.

And legal animal rights advocate being "a person who holds the philosophy which says animal should be granted legal rights" has the most utility for describing the principle behind the action.
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Re: Footsoldier vs Theo on the Definition of Veganism

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NonZeroSum wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:21 pm And legal animal rights advocate being "a person who holds the philosophy which says animal should be granted legal rights" has the most utility for describing the principle behind the action.
It doesn't, though. There are plenty of libertarian, anarchist, and anarchocapitalist vegans who don't believe the law should be part of the equation because they believe it should be minimal in some way, is counterproductive, or that the body that establishes laws shouldn't exist.

You're calling a large swath of vegans not-vegan with a definition like that.
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Re: Footsoldier vs Theo on the Definition of Veganism

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brimstoneSalad wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:40 am
NonZeroSum wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:21 pm And legal animal rights advocate being "a person who holds the philosophy which says animal should be granted legal rights" has the most utility for describing the principle behind the action.
It doesn't, though. There are plenty of libertarian, anarchist, and anarchocapitalist vegans who don't believe the law should be part of the equation because they believe it should be minimal in some way, is counterproductive, or that the body that establishes laws shouldn't exist.

You're calling a large swath of vegans not-vegan with a definition like that.
I said has the most utility for defining what it means to be a legal animal rights advocate as a principle behind veganism, not as the only principle behind veganism. The most utility as in, most marketable for advocacy. Obviously the principle can also come from thinking of yourself as an animal liberation advocate or an animal welfare advocate also, and many other ways.
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Re: Footsoldier vs Theo on the Definition of Veganism

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Maybe, but in that sense it seems like an empirical question of how people receive it. For all we know the greatest appeal comes from marketing it as the philosophy of the most popular celebrity endorser today.

When it comes to semantics, overall utility to the goals of a movement or ideology isn't necessarily the correct way to define words: more the utility to goals of communication.
In the same way Racism can not reasonably be said to be represented by the woke definition claiming all white people are racist by vice of original sin of their race and inheritance regardless of their personal beliefs. It's just not honest to redefine words to suit any kind of agenda beyond that of language itself (which is assumed when we use words).
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Re: Footsoldier vs Theo on the Definition of Veganism

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brimstoneSalad wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:52 pmWhen it comes to semantics, overall utility to the goals of a movement or ideology isn't necessarily the correct way to define words: more the utility to goals of communication.
Aye, and I think legal animal rights advocate has the most utility for communicating the principled identity behind the action, and veganism the boycott strategy behaviour.

Even though I would accept veganism has taken on this secondary beliefism definition, for the utility of communicating it's best to talk about it as a behaviour with a blank ethical commitment inferred, so an animal products boycott.

The same way I accept literally has come to take on a secondary definition of figuratively because it rolls off the tongue so nicely, but in veganism’s case, I don’t think we have any benefits at this point in time to using a secondary definition of veganism as primarily a beliefism when communicating it's main meaning historically and up to the present, and so should stick to using the primary colloquial definition (a person who does not eat or use animal products as a boycott, so 'an animal products boycott'), and just acknowledge that of course there are people who go a lot further than an animal products boycott and so hold a commitment to legal animal rights that means a lot more to them than just veganism.

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Re: Footsoldier vs Theo on the Definition of Veganism

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NonZeroSum wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:16 pm
brimstoneSalad wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:52 pmWhen it comes to semantics, overall utility to the goals of a movement or ideology isn't necessarily the correct way to define words: more the utility to goals of communication.
Aye, and I think legal animal rights advocate has the most utility for communicating the principled identity behind the action, and veganism the boycott strategy behaviour.

Even though I would accept veganism has taken on this secondary beliefism definition, for the utility of communicating it's best to talk about it as a behaviour with a blank ethical commitment inferred, so an animal products boycott.
That's not for the utility of communicating if it's excluding a large number of vegans who do not agree with that legal aspect which also has nothing to do with the original coined definition.

The original coining and usage has a huge influence on the meanings of words, because drift itself is counter to utility in communication. Beyond that when it comes to labels like this descriptive accuracy and common understanding pretty much accounts for the rest.

I understand it may have utility to a particular ideology to more narrowly define a broad term in concordance with that ideology, but that doesn't mean it has linguistic utility.

There is utility to comprehension to dispense with contradictions in terms, but there aren't any apparent contradictions in the original definitions or common usage. Vegans can believe things in contradiction to each other, but that's only relevant to the point that those beliefs are outside of the scope of veganism which is only referring to one particular thing and casts a broad net in its acceptance of members beyond that.
NonZeroSum wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:16 pmThe same way I accept literally has come to take on a secondary definition of figuratively because it rolls off the tongue so nicely,
That's not the same, because it is actually counterproductive in generating contradictions in expression and making it all but impossible to convey the original meaning when it also means its own negation.

If vegan also took on a second definition of "Eating nothing but meat" that would be a problem and it would be proper to oppose that.
But like I said, we're not talking about a secondary definition that you're dispensing with, that's the original and primary one you're supplanting.
NonZeroSum wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:16 pmand so should stick to using the primary colloquial definition (a person who does not eat or use animal products as a boycott, so 'an animal products boycott'),
I haven't seen boycott terminology in any dictionary definitions, but dictionary definitions in the case of defining a philosophical movement are clearly lacking. I don't think there's a big issue with the definition of practice, but reading more into it can be a problem when you're taking a simplified definition and trying to expand on it. Like trying to increase the resolution of a poor photocopy. If you want to get at the philosophical roots don't try to derive them from the abridged dictionary citations, look back to the original definition and that which many vegans point to (which is also very broad and inclusive -- yet another benefit).
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Re: Footsoldier vs Theo on the Definition of Veganism

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brimstoneSalad wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:31 pm
NonZeroSum wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:16 pmAye, and I think legal animal rights advocate has the most utility for communicating the principled identity behind the action, and veganism the boycott strategy behaviour.
That's not for the utility of communicating if it's excluding a large number of vegans who do not agree with that legal aspect. . .
Right, again just one of many principles, but by introducing it as 2 concepts, legal animal rights & veganism, the other possible principled positions isn't a problem for the utility of communicating veganism and the main principled reason people will be vegan. Whilst allowing veganism to have this cast iron meaning about what actions it entails at a minumum.
brimstoneSalad wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:31 pm
NonZeroSum wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:16 pmEven though I would accept veganism has taken on this secondary beliefism definition, for the utility of communicating it's best to talk about it as a behaviour with a blank ethical commitment inferred, so an animal products boycott.
. . .which also has nothing to do with the original coined definition.
The original coining and usage has a huge influence on the meanings of words, because drift itself is counter to utility in communication. Beyond that when it comes to labels like this descriptive accuracy and common understanding pretty much accounts for the rest.
So we've got total animal product avoiding anarchists in early 1900s France robbing banks and using the money to build up their working class neighbourhoods and animal product free cafes.

We've got total animal product avoiding abolitionist movements in the US funneling their money into settlements in the Wild West to make sure those states stay slavery free.

A Tolstoyan (christian anarchist) community setting up a vegetarian chapter in London which goes on to be the chapter that creates the vegan society who meet in a socialist vegetarian restaurant called Vega.

They almost accept the word 'dairyban' for vegan because the debates that lead up to the creation of the vegan society in meeting houses and in the journal were about people advocating to each other that we should also be boycotting the dairy industry.

They chose the word vegan, just taking the middle out of vegetarian, without coming up with a definition, just the understanding that it would no longer be a diet, but a lifestyle where they would avoid all products from the body of an animal.

A few years later Leslie Cross comes up with the definition "the doctrine that man should live without exploiting animals," where exploitation is supposed to work as a magic reverse uno word for also 'reducing suffering', though I think this makes it meaningless and distasteful to either party whichever way it's used. Deontologists wouldn't execpt it if it was "the doctrine that man should not harm animals," and then have to cash it out to "I'm vegan, I believe that man should not harm animals, because harming animals increases exploitation, and exploitation is unjustified."

In 1988 it's changed to; "A philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals."

So excluding freegans & vague about whether it entails a weaker or stronger commitment to avoiding animal products where practicable to what kind of society you want to build, rather than it having a cast iron meaning with a protest component, ensuring a guarunteed strong commitment.

Again I'm fine with people holding to what veganism means personally to them with a secondary behavioural defintion of "A way of living which seeks to exclude all use of animals, as far as practicable." Which I would be happy to be the sole one when we've all but defeated the animal agricutlure industry and things like animals in entertainment are just as big an issue.

Finally, I accept a tertiary beliefism definition has come into usage, which you can argue supplanted the original primal meaning, but I would still say it's detremential in the same way literally took on a second meaning of figuratively.

Either way, I do still think for the utility of communicating what a vegan is at minumum is a behaviour with inferred ethics, and then a second concept in legal animal rights as the best way to introduce where the principle comes from for most vegans.
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Re: Footsoldier vs Theo on the Definition of Veganism

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Response video to Eisel's video on Veganism vs. Animal Liberation - https://youtu.be/QlJTJEnfWSg

So, as far as I know Eisel has never tried to come up with precise wording for what his preferred definition of veganism would be, so at a guess from watching his videos, I can imagine it would be something along the lines of:

“A personal duty to respect the dignity of animals & a desire to build a social movement to, among other things, lobby government for a higher percentage territory of managed wildlife habitat.”

And we can guess his argument for this philosophy being contained in the word vegan is that… its the best descriptive adjective for a human-centred movement. And, that the goal is to win over enough passionate people who are dedicated enough to take on the personal principle of avoiding animal products, as a basis for finding each other and organizing to making changes to our communities and institutions.

The person he’s critiquing would like to abandon the word vegan in favour of advocating the ideology of anti-speciesism, as an element of total liberation. So more like a social justice movement where anti-speciesism is one axis of oppression among other struggles like anti-racism & anti-sexism. Therefore an animal-centred movement alongside other oppressed-centred movements.

So, positives to Eisel’s critique are, by solely advocating for animals through a social justice approach, you just are going to get meat eaters being turned away from caring about animals because vegans look like deluded people who view animals as citizens.

As well as vegans feeling more justified in taking violent action for animals, who they start to view as members of our society. When in reality, like I said in my earlier video, animals can’t conceptualize a tactical war to achieve rights, so they can’t desire it.

We aren’t even able to alleviate their suffering like we could human prisoners with the optimistic notion that direct actions done in other places now, may one day lead to an end to their suffering.

Negatives are, he never acknowledges any better arguments for putting more focus on words like animal liberation.

I think we need to be fighting for incremental legal animal rights laws which make it less profitable to breed animals for food. And one philosophical and legal approach which is gaining more prominence is Martha Nussbaum’s capabilities approach, which we can say is about liberating animals to be able to express their capabilities in the wild. Links below in the description.

As well, I think he’s wrong to claim Animal Liberation is primarily tied to Singer’s views on utilitarianism. The most common association people will draw it to is the Animal Liberation Front, which people already understand that if you have activists willing to liberate animals from cages, they obviously won’t also be buying animal foods.

I have nothing against veganism as a marketable word for a boycott identity, but in terms of explaining where the principle comes from, I think legal animal rights movement, says it really clearly in the name itself about how it’s a political movement, rather than veganism with it’s history and etymology in vegetarianism, which was simply a lifestyle society.

So in conclusion, I think as well as and even better than a vegan identity, we need to start thinking of ourselves as legal animal rights advocates also, which can encompass arguments for animal rights, liberation and/or welfare.

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Re: Footsoldier vs Theo on the Definition of Veganism

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NonZeroSum wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2020 1:38 am -

I debated Shadow Starshine on the same topic, if you wish to watch you can click here

Here were my updated pre-debate notes going in - click here.
Do you always go into a debate with notes like this?

I'm just struggling to express myself clearly and articulately, that's all ….maybe this might help.
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Re: Footsoldier vs Theo on the Definition of Veganism

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Kaz1983 wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 12:29 amDo you always go into a debate with notes like this?

I'm just struggling to express myself clearly and articulately, that's all ….maybe this might help.
I try to for sure, just write a lot about all the angles you approach an issue in your mind, then if it's a friendly debate give your notes to your opponent so you can both come up with a good format for getting to the bottom of your disagreements.

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