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agnus
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Hi there

Post by agnus »

Hello everyone,
For quite a few years I wanted to become a vegetarian, but somehow couldn't make myself (most probably because my ex boyfriend cannot live without some meat dishes). But anyways, once I moved out, I decided to change my eating habits, mostly because:
1) Yes, animals are treated horribly in our food system. While that "could be remedied", people in general seem to prefer low cost over humane conditions.
2) My health. The Surgeon General has said that a vegetarian diet is the healthiest. Meat, especially red meat, is a contributor to a myriad of human diseases.
3) The environment. Animal agriculture, especially beef, consumes huge amounts of food and water, and produces massive waste that spreads all over our world. I became a vegetarian 27 years ago. My only regret is that I didn't do it sooner.
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Jebus
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Re: Hi there

Post by Jebus »

Welcome Agnus,

Are you aware that dairy is equally relevant in the three points you outlined?
How to become vegan in 4.5 hours:
1.Watch Forks over Knives (Health)
2.Watch Cowspiracy (Environment)
3. Watch Earthlings (Ethics)
Congratulations, unless you are a complete idiot you are now a vegan.
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Red
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Re: Hi there

Post by Red »

Hey agnus, welcome to the forum. Feel free to start a new thread anything. I think Jebus would like to discuss with you your stance on dairy.
Learning never exhausts the mind.
-Leonardo da Vinci
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: Hi there

Post by brimstoneSalad »

Welcome agnus, congrats on going veg. I hope you like it here.
agnus
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Diet: Vegetarian

Re: Hi there

Post by agnus »

Jebus wrote: Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:10 pm Welcome Agnus,

Are you aware that dairy is equally relevant in the three points you outlined?
Sorry, was quite busy (last year we bought a cottage quite outside of the city and decided to grow our own veggies, fruits and berries..that times lots of time and effort)

I don't think dairy is harmful to the environment and cattle. I may not be an expert on this but form what I know if you don't milk a cow, eventually it will stop secreting milk and when the cow gives birth to a calf and is producing a lot of milk then the pressure would be exceedingly uncomfortable and infection could occur. As to the environment, unless cattle is specifically bred to produce large quantities of milk, there's no harm. But unfortunately in today's society that's quite different. Corporate farming is about breeding cows to sell milk or meat to make money, and it doesn't matter that lots of food just become waste (generally that 30-40% of the food supply https://www.usda.gov/foodwaste/faqs). We cannot consume everything that is produced but we still spend money on it. I guess our gluttony kicks in.
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: Hi there

Post by brimstoneSalad »

agnus wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2019 5:04 am I don't think dairy is harmful to the environment and cattle.
If you assume the cows are going to be there anyway, then it's harder to understand why it's harmful -- but here's the thing: demand for dairy means farmers have bred cows in huge numbers, and now they number a quarter billion animals globally. Almost half the mass of all human beings combined. That's an unnaturally large burden on the environment of animals who produce huge amounts of methane.

It's not just a given that the cows will or *should* exist in those huge numbers. Obviously it's not their fault that they're overpopulated -- it's ours. If we stop consuming so much dairy, then farmers will breed fewer cows and eventually the numbers will be more sustainable (in the hundreds of thousands or a couple million, not a quarter billion).
agnus wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2019 5:04 amI may not be an expert on this but form what I know if you don't milk a cow, eventually it will stop secreting milk and when the cow gives birth to a calf and is producing a lot of milk then the pressure would be exceedingly uncomfortable and infection could occur.
I'm not sure what you're saying. Common commercial practice is that dairy cows are dried for 1-2 months before calving.
https://www.dairyherd.com/article/dry-p ... -dairy-cow

Are you saying that if we go vegan then the farmers will dry out their cows and this will be a risk to the cows? Are you saying we should drink milk all of the time to prevent the cows from drying out? Because drying is already done and has nothing to do with people going vegan. Drinking milk doesn't stop farmers from drying their cows. They do what they do to maximize yield, and the cows aren't all pregnant at once.

The more people drink more milk the more cows there will be and the more those cows and the environment will suffer. More calves taken from mothers for veal, more infections, more early deaths when their production wanes, more greenhouse gases all around.

Sorry I just really don't know what you're trying to say here.
agnus wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2019 5:04 amAs to the environment, unless cattle is specifically bred to produce large quantities of milk, there's no harm. But unfortunately in today's society that's quite different. Corporate farming is about breeding cows to sell milk or meat to make money, and it doesn't matter that lots of food just become waste (generally that 30-40% of the food supply https://www.usda.gov/foodwaste/faqs). We cannot consume everything that is produced but we still spend money on it. I guess our gluttony kicks in.
In terms of environment, the mutant cows are actually less harmful because they're more efficient at converting feed into milk... but regardless, having so many cows is harmful to the global environment and the only reason so many cows are bred is because of human consumption. Milk consumption harms the environment because it requires more cows to be bred to sustain.

It's true that heritage "breeds" of cows who produce less milk probably live better lives (before they're killed when production drops) because they're less prone to infections and basically only produce enough for their babies, but that doesn't help the environment since we'd need even *more* cows to make the same amount of milk. There's really no way to win except not playing (e.g. opt out of the industrial animal agriculture system).
agnus
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Re: Hi there

Post by agnus »

brimstoneSalad wrote: Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:02 am
I'm not sure what you're saying. Common commercial practice is that dairy cows are dried for 1-2 months before calving.
https://www.dairyherd.com/article/dry-p ... -dairy-cow

Are you saying that if we go vegan then the farmers will dry out their cows and this will be a risk to the cows? Are you saying we should drink milk all of the time to prevent the cows from drying out? Because drying is already done and has nothing to do with people going vegan. Drinking milk doesn't stop farmers from drying their cows. They do what they do to maximize yield, and the cows aren't all pregnant at once.

The more people drink more milk the more cows there will be and the more those cows and the environment will suffer. More calves taken from mothers for veal, more infections, more early deaths when their production wanes, more greenhouse gases all around.

Sorry I just really don't know what you're trying to say here.
What I meant was that once cows start producing milk again for their calves, it might be quite painful for them
I read that here at https://www.theguardian.com/notesandque ... 94,00.html

But I think we should look more into the food waste - one study showed that one in six pints of milk thrown away each year
https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... tudy-shows
Milk production can be reduced as long as humans start to understand their food needs and buy as much as they need
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Jebus
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Re: Hi there

Post by Jebus »

@agnus In your initial post personal health seemed to be important to you. Do you believe dairy is healthful?
agnus wrote: Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:18 amWhat I meant was that once cows start producing milk again for their calves, it might be quite painful for them
A lot of things are painful to cows. Why do you single this one out? Have you ever seen the agony of a cow having her newborn calf pulled away from her? What percentage of the half billion cows do you think live enjoyable, pain free lives?
agnus wrote: Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:18 amBut I think we should look more into the food waste - one study showed that one in six pints of milk thrown away each year
Are you sure you are not trying to deflect here? Food waste is an important topic, but to suggest that it is "more" important than forced, unnecessary breeding; well, that's pretty fucked up.

I assume you really like the taste of cheese and can't imagine what a meal would be like without it. Am I right?
How to become vegan in 4.5 hours:
1.Watch Forks over Knives (Health)
2.Watch Cowspiracy (Environment)
3. Watch Earthlings (Ethics)
Congratulations, unless you are a complete idiot you are now a vegan.
agnus
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Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:26 am
Diet: Vegetarian

Re: Hi there

Post by agnus »

Jebus wrote: Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:31 pm A lot of things are painful to cows. Why do you single this one out? Have you ever seen the agony of a cow having her newborn calf pulled away from her? What percentage of the half billion cows do you think live enjoyable, pain free lives?
Pretty much as the same percentage of women having natural childbirth.

And low-fat dairy is not a superfood but quite healthy since contains calcium, protein and vitamin D. As long as you know how to read labels and much of it to consume it's safe for humans.
On the other hand corporate farming is damaging to the environment. But is it more damaging than exhaust gases, deforestation (and grazing of livestock isn't the only cause of it), industries like mining, increasing human population etc?
If we are talking about the damage to the environment, are you using public transportation or you've got your own car, what kind of a Christmas tree you will have, a real one or an artificial, or how many wooden furniture units you have at your house?

oh, and I can live without cheese
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Jebus
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Re: Hi there

Post by Jebus »

Jebus wrote: Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:31 pmWhat percentage of the half billion cows do you think live enjoyable, pain free lives?
agnus wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:13 amPretty much as the same percentage of women having natural childbirth.
That response makes no sense whatsoever.
agnus wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:13 amAs long as you know how to read labels and much of it to consume it's safe for humans.
I suggest you have a look at some dairy studies that were not funded by the dairy industry.

agnus wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:13 amOn the other hand corporate farming is damaging to the environment. But is it more damaging than exhaust gases, deforestation (and grazing of livestock isn't the only cause of it), industries like mining, increasing human population etc?

Why do you need a ranking list? Just do your best to avoid things that cause environmental harm.
agnus wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:13 amIf we are talking about the damage to the environment, are you using public transportation or you've got your own car, what kind of a Christmas tree you will have, a real one or an artificial, or how many wooden furniture units you have at your house?
Ethical people consider all of the above. Ethical people also choose not to consume dairy.
agnus wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:13 amIoh, and I can live without cheese
So why don't you?
How to become vegan in 4.5 hours:
1.Watch Forks over Knives (Health)
2.Watch Cowspiracy (Environment)
3. Watch Earthlings (Ethics)
Congratulations, unless you are a complete idiot you are now a vegan.
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