Devil's Advocate/ Good or Bad?

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PsYcHo
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Devil's Advocate/ Good or Bad?

Post by PsYcHo »

I enjoy being the Devil's advocate occasionally.

(For those unaware, it's mainly arguing against a point you agree with.)

I do this for differing reasons. To see why someone believes what they believe. Or because I think they have an okay argument, and want to help lead them to a better one when challenged by people who actually disagree with them. And sometimes because I hold a certain view, and like to challenge myself to defend it. I've had a few instances where my argument against my own belief was better, so I changed my own beliefs.

Does anyone else here do this?

Does this type of debate do more harm than good?

(in this thread, I will not be a Devil's advocate..... :twisted: )
Alcohol may have been a factor.

Taxation is theft.
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Lay Vegan
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Re: Devil's Advocate/ Good or Bad?

Post by Lay Vegan »

I think playing devil’s advocate does a lot of good. As you stated, playing devil’s advocate helps us to better understand our opponents and improve our own argumentation. It also helps this forum to avoid becoming a culty echo chamber, where we’re too afraid to bring forth dissenting positions.

Don’t hesitate to continue advocating for the devil. :twisted:
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Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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Re: Devil's Advocate/ Good or Bad?

Post by Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz »

I don't know whether this is devil's advocate or not, but whenever somebody tells me about a viewpoint they have which I am undecided on, I usually put forward reasons why people may disagree, to see for myself whether the viewpoint is a good viewpoint or not.
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PsYcHo
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Re: Devil's Advocate/ Good or Bad?

Post by PsYcHo »

Lay Vegan wrote: Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:23 am Don’t hesitate to continue advocating for the devil. :twisted:
Well, I did say on this thread I wasn't going to be the Devil's advocate, so I agree, but a counter argument to this could be- Couldn't you alienate some people by arguing against them, even if you agree with them?

I wholly agree about the "echo chamber" point. That's why I like this forum. I'm active(ish) on another unrelated massive forum. (Around 30+- moderators, and at least 20 admins.) They lock threads constantly, delete posts (without explanation) and ban members frequently. I'm one of the few Libertarian members on a heavily progressive forum. Apparently Libertarian translates into "Republicans/Nazis who smoke weed" on this site. But I digress, maybe we could start a new thread on the the topic of echo chambers. :D

For reasons I wanted to try something. Between my last part of visible text, and the emoji, there is more text. It's basically a reply to Lay Vegan about something non-relevant to the thread, but something I wanted to make a point on. To read, just highlight the area in between the last visible post and the emoji. Also, if you can read it without highlighting it, let me know.
Alcohol may have been a factor.

Taxation is theft.
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Lay Vegan
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Re: Devil's Advocate/ Good or Bad?

Post by Lay Vegan »

PsYcHo wrote: Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:34 am Well, I did say on this thread I wasn't going to be the Devil's advocate, so I agree, but a counter argument to this could be- couldn't you alienate some people by arguing against them, even if you agree with them?
It would probably be more alienating to ignore their argument altogether. Rather, by playing devil's advocate, you're encouraging a person to consider and evaluate the strength of his own argument. You're not trying to isolate him but to make him think more about the validity of his own position, and he could gain new insight he wouldn't have gotten had he not been challenged.

PsYcHo wrote: Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:34 am For reasons I wanted to try something. Between my last part of visible text, and the emoji, there is more text. It's basically a reply to Lay Vegan about something non-relevant to the thread, but something I wanted to make a point on.
I'm glad you started this, lol. I ramble and go off point quite frequently in my posts. (Highlight down below)


Wow, I don't think I could be a part of a forum like that. This is probably one of the most welcoming places on the internet I know. But it's not so comfortable that I don't feel I can have my ideas challenged. Also, why don't you start a thread on libertarianism? I'd like to know more about that. :idea:
PsYcHo wrote: Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:34 am Also, if you can read it without highlighting it, let me know.
No can read without highlighting.
carnap
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Re: Devil's Advocate/ Good or Bad?

Post by carnap »

I think playing "Devil's advocate" has limited value because people really aren't psychologically capable of doing it well. Once you commit to some idea your psychology towards it changes, you become far more prone to various cognitive biases. So playing "Devil's advocate" will tend just to repeat poor arguments as a way to emphasizing the correctness of what you already believe. Also you avoid echo-chambers by committing to dialogue with people outside of your group not by people pretending to hold positions of people outside of the group. The latter can easily promote an echo-chamber where the various arguments on the "outside" are straw-man that just emphasize the beliefs in the inside and I'd suggest that is exactly what happens in the vegan community (similar behavior can be seen in partisan politics as well). Another tactic that seems common is that arguing with outsiders that clearly aren't well versed in underlying topics. A recent example of that I've seen is when vegans started to go after Matt Dillahunty on a show that had nothing to do with animal ethics. Its very clear that he hasn't thought about the topics much so arguing with him does nothing other than giving you a sort of cheap sense of victory.

As such its much different to argue against someone that actually holds the position than someone that holds a conflicting position that is merely pretending to hold the position.

I'm much more found of the "Socratic method".
I'm here to exploit you schmucks into demonstrating the blatant anti-intellectualism in the vegan community and the reality of veganism. But I can do that with any user name.
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PsYcHo
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Re: Devil's Advocate/ Good or Bad?

Post by PsYcHo »

carnap wrote: Sun Mar 25, 2018 1:52 pm I think playing "Devil's advocate" has limited value because people really aren't psychologically capable of doing it well. Once you commit to some idea your psychology towards it changes, you become far more prone to various cognitive biases.
Does this apply only to people who are "set in their ways"? In other words, If I already believe heavily that, lets say, taxation is theft, I agree that I am definitely biased towards that argument, so maybe playing the Devil's advocate wouldn't be the best path; my "counter arguments" would likely be weak, intentionally or subconsciously.

But what about arguments where I am only mostly sure on. By playing advocate, don't I both challenge another person and myself to consider other opinions? Like I said in the OP, I've argued myself out of points I thought I believed..
Alcohol may have been a factor.

Taxation is theft.
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PsYcHo
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Re: Devil's Advocate/ Good or Bad?

Post by PsYcHo »

Lay Vegan wrote: Sun Mar 25, 2018 1:27 am
I'm glad you started this, lol. I ramble and go off point quite frequently in my posts. (Highlight down below)


Wow, I don't think I could be a part of a forum like that. This is probably one of the most welcoming places on the internet I know. But it's not so comfortable that I don't feel I can have my ideas challenged. Also, why don't you start a thread on libertarianism? I'd like to know more about that. :idea:
X

I'm only on that forum because sometimes they have good points, and also because there are many people who don't fit into neat little boxes that agree with me, but are afraid to say so to their "friends". I like to "stop the echo" sometimes. And I find the more I gently break the "order",
the more who agree.

I might start a thread on Libertarianism at some point, but it's a touchy subject for some people, and a complicated "political" affiliation. To put it in it's simplest terms, it holds the individual as the most important part of a society. As long as you do not violate another persons right to not be assaulted, you are free to do as you wish. If you aren't straight, that's fine. If someone wants to call you a faggot, that's fine. (I'm not straight, so I can say faggot ;)/ not saying it's a good thing, just not something that there should be a law against that would forcibly put you in a cage for being a non-violent asshole. ) As long as you do not violate the NAP (Non-aggression policy) you can do as you wish. Do not harm anyone, and do not take from anyone.

If a Christian doesn't want to bake a cake for me, fine. If I want to peacefully stand outside their business with a sign complaining about how they don't want to bake a cake for me, fine also. No harm, no foul.

But conversely, If you do violate the NAP, (break into someone's home, or try to kill/rape someone), it's acceptable to use deadly force against you. :twisted:
Alcohol may have been a factor.

Taxation is theft.
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PsYcHo
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Re: Devil's Advocate/ Good or Bad?

Post by PsYcHo »

Lay Vegan wrote: Sun Mar 25, 2018 1:27 am It would probably be more alienating to ignore their argument altogether.
Oops, meant to address this in my last response, but it's been a long day with some issues..

That makes a good point, especially in the context of debate forums. There are plenty of persons who just wish to argue for "reasons", but to not have an argument addressed at all could lead someone to avoid making any more arguments.Which would make for a boring ass debate. :)
Alcohol may have been a factor.

Taxation is theft.
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: Devil's Advocate/ Good or Bad?

Post by brimstoneSalad »

Lay Vegan wrote: Sun Mar 25, 2018 1:27 am It would probably be more alienating to ignore their argument altogether.
On the other hand, some people just want support, and don't want to have to deal with the same arguments and criticism over and over.

For example, somebody asking for some good vegan sources of iron, and then somebody pops in and tells them they should give up the whole endeavor and eat beef instead rather than offering suggestions to OP asked for.

It's tricky to balance.
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