So what is the ultimate goal of veganism?

[bigbossomni]

read the rest of his posts he puts us non vegans on the same level as rapists like cosby. I have my answer it is mainly tribalism with you guys. I'm not going to convert and it upsets you folks. sorry you guys will get nothing done by hating the people you are trying to convince

[brimstoneSalad]

read the rest of his posts he puts us non vegans on the same level as rapists like cosby.

And people who ride in private jets. The horror!

You're taking this far too personally.
You've had a lot of engagement here that you're ignoring.

Do you expect everybody to like every single thing you do, or else you throw a tantrum, call them names as a group, and ignore everything the rest of them say?

Because it's not tribalism here, you're just overly sensitive. I threw you a bone and you spat in my face.

sorry you guys will get nothing done by hating the people you are trying to convince

Great straw-man there. We do not hate you. We disagree with you. But the biggest disagreement here is how you're slandering us.

I'm starting to dislike you, not because you eat meat, but because you're a cry-baby who doesn't want to engage with actual discussion and instead wants to make a bunch of drama on account of one comment from one person.

[bigbossomni]

oh thanks my guess was accurate on how you'd all behave. Thanks folks for proving my point. I'm done here you aren't capable of tolerating people who don't follow your ideals . Keep up that intolerance

[bigbossomni]

not a cry baby im just a 1st impression type of guy and my impression here was unwelcoming. Should work on that. No issues with anyone personally wish you all the best. Cheers and happy holidays and whatnot

[sykkelmannen]

To me, veganism is about putting an end to factory farming (by reducing demand) and awaking empathy to realize one does not have to kill in order to live. I wouldn't go as far as supporting laws against meat-eaters and such. This would be similar to alcohol prohibition and we all know how that ended. Laws emerge wherever society isn't able to solve problems effectively, or where society isn't really INTERESTED to actually solve the issues at hand. I should also mention the mountains of laws that go directly against common sense and ask how they come to exist and why.

You just can't force anyone to abandon their way of life if they can't see your point. It always backfires. If a farmer - used to killing his own animals - doesn't see the harm, fighting him by legal means is totally counterproductive in my point of view. It will harden his heart in the belief that he's a victim and must fight for his own rights and justice. What works tho is to lead by example and show the way. What is needed is patience.

To give an example: My mother grew up in the countryside where slaughtering chickens and occassionally even a pig was a commonplace thing. Yet she refused to take part in the killing process; she never picked it up. She went along with just about everything else, but stopped short of the very act of killing. I was equally shocked by being directly confronted with the (I have to put it this way) murder. Of course the idea of participating in the act never even crossed my mind and any thought of collaboration in the processing grossed me out, and yet it took me years and years to finally take a stance.

While the idea that in this very moment billions upon billions of animals live in bad conditions of the factory farms and will be all killed is very painful and heart-wrenching, there is little that one can do except try and find the ones with eyes to see and ears to listen. Others get it over time. There's no need to force the idea down anyone's throat; it is indeed counterproductive.

People in my ideal world know what they are doing, why they are doing it, they understand the consequences of their actions and assume responsibility.

[bigbossomni]

sorry but murder only applies to humans. so don't compare the killing of livestock to such an awful thing. Sorry but us just living kills animals

[Jebus]

sorry but murder only applies to humans.

The question is whether or not the action causes suffering.

Sorry but us just living kills animals

OK then.

[sykkelmannen]

sorry but murder only applies to humans.

It didn't apply to foreigners in the Old Testament.
It didn't apply to slaves.
It didn't apply to Jews in Nazi Germany.
It doesn't apply in war ever.
Such was/is human logic.

[Dsalles]

The end goal for me is when enough people get a distaste for killing animals, and the number of vegans begins to rise. And all the other stages between vegans and total carnists,who would eat any animal, start to tilt to the vegan side, and a momentum is created, where meat, leather and all its other by-products become prohibitively expensive and substitutes become the standard, and people know how to get enough of the necessary nutrients just as people know to brush their teeth and proper hygiene, and it becomes less of a sacrifice to go vegan. I hope we dont need to enforce laws, just as there are rarely cases of having to enforce laws against cockfighting anymore. We dont need laws against bullfighting outside of the Iberian Peninsula. Because people dont want to see it. Violent tactics will not get us there. Distaste will.
Also I sort of run a 100% grass-fed cattle operation, and it is not pretty either. In fact I feel like I am getting some bad psychological effects from it. But that is another story I can go into later.

[brimstoneSalad]

Also I sort of run a 100% grass-fed cattle operation, and it is not pretty either. In fact I feel like I am getting some bad psychological effects from it. But that is another story I can go into later.

Your experiences on that could be very valuable to teaching people about animal welfare and farming, it would be amazing if you could start a thread to talk about it.