Piers Morgan vs George Mombiot

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NonZeroSum
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Piers Morgan vs George Mombiot

Post by NonZeroSum »

__________

Piers Morgan vs George Mombiot
https://youtu.be/My3uB5Gc0N4

The vegan debate: Piers challenges George Monbiot for wearing leather watch
http://www.itv.com/goodmorningbritain/news/livestock-farming-george-monbiot-leather-watch-piers-morgan-susanna-reid

Mombiot not being an ethical vegan but in it for the environment went on ITV's Good Morning Britain to make the case for veganism wearing leather shoes and a watch strap he bought before he went vegan. It was an own goal, but he still managed to get a few basic statistics in there about how we source our food. Sadly the quality of discourse was never going to be high with Piers involved.

Newspaper opinion columns have either run with the title Piers branded pathetic or vegan campaigner wears leather.

For background Piers has previously argued focus on minor details like this does a disservice to raising the important issues of veganism aha:

Piers Morgan Clashes With Vegan Over New Five Pound Note | Good Morning Britain
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1oz84qnHIg
Piers: Listen I respect the fact you're a vegan right, but is there not a danger of being what I would call vegan you know PC police over this, in other words taking it to such a, sort of, as many would see it, ridiculous degree, that actually you lose a bit of sympathy for the wider issues that a vegan can raise, about the habitats we live in?

Vegan Petitioner: Well if we all kept quiet about things that concern us nothing would change, I'm really pleased that there's been so much discussion and debate around this, it's raising the issue of veganism and people are talking about it, and that's one of my goals achieved.
Mombiot has written the most popular book on wildlife preservation and rewilding, writes a newspaper column promoting veganism, appeared on TV many times arguing against farm subsidies, sheep hill desertification, for a carbon tax, lobbied government for nature preservation and reintroducing species to diversify habitat. Here’s a folder of clips and his book:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8g-aCUkn-onUElqbVZESzJLVWc

TheVeganStratagist has weighed in also:

Vegan, thou shalt be consistent! (On George Monbiot vs Piers Morgan)
https://veganstrategist.org/2017/10/12/vegan-thou-shalt-consistent-george-monbiot-vs-piers-morgan/

And AskYourself has said on facebook he'll respond after his next video.

Mombiot’s articles on veganism:

Why I'm eating my words on veganism – again
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/27/al-gore-veganism-eating-words-sceptical-meat-eating

I’ve converted to veganism to reduce my impact on the living world
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/09/vegan-corrupt-food-system-meat-dairy
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Jamie in Chile
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Re: Piers Morgan vs George Mombiot

Post by Jamie in Chile »

It might have been better if he had not worn the watch. But the key point is the typical use of an accusation of hypocrisy to deflect the discussion about from the moral question and the need for change. It's almost always a strong sign that the person trying to accuse someone else of hypocrisy has no defence of their own moral behaviour.

Imagine I criticise you for killing one innocent child, but you respond that you saw me killing two innocent children, and therefore I am a hypocrit. True, but that doesn't make it OK that you killed one innocent child. You cannot win an argument that way, you can only drag the other down with you. Everything from global warming deniers wittering on about environmentalists taking flights to the state sponsored Russian media reporting on scandals in the West. They are all guilty.

Hypocrit vegans don't make veganism wrong. That would be like saying that because a feminist once did something sexist, that it's OK to be sexist. It's completely absurd.
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: Piers Morgan vs George Mombiot

Post by brimstoneSalad »

And as it turned out, the watch strap wasn't even leather!

Very interesting to see that Piers Morgan quote.

I don't know if there's also an (animal welfare) ethical dimension to Monbiot's veganism or not.
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Jebus
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Re: Piers Morgan vs George Mombiot

Post by Jebus »

WTF? What an idiot. We seriously need some better vegan advocates.
How to become vegan in 4.5 hours:
1.Watch Forks over Knives (Health)
2.Watch Cowspiracy (Environment)
3. Watch Earthlings (Ethics)
Congratulations, unless you are a complete idiot you are now a vegan.
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: Piers Morgan vs George Mombiot

Post by brimstoneSalad »

Jebus wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:11 pm WTF? What an idiot. We seriously need some better vegan advocates.
He's an eloquent writer and he's reaching a lot of people.

I'm always happy to have more/better advocates, but Monbiot seems to be doing some good work. He made a newbie error with the leather at an interview, but like he said if people are out to get you they'll probably find a way (but I'd say if we make it harder for them, they'll look more ridiculous doing it).
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Jebus
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Re: Piers Morgan vs George Mombiot

Post by Jebus »

brimstoneSalad wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:57 pmHe's an eloquent writer
Good. He should stick to writing.

I remember the first time I was supposed to meet a group of vegans. I second guessed everything in my attire to make sure everything was vegan. I can't imagine how thorough I would have been if going on tv. Such ignorance is inexcusable.
How to become vegan in 4.5 hours:
1.Watch Forks over Knives (Health)
2.Watch Cowspiracy (Environment)
3. Watch Earthlings (Ethics)
Congratulations, unless you are a complete idiot you are now a vegan.
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: Piers Morgan vs George Mombiot

Post by brimstoneSalad »

Jebus wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:07 pm
brimstoneSalad wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:57 pmHe's an eloquent writer
Good. He should stick to writing.

I remember the first time I was supposed to meet a group of vegans. I second guessed everything in my attire to make sure everything was vegan. I can't imagine how thorough I would have been if going on tv. Such ignorance is inexcusable.
That may be true, he doesn't seem to be great at thinking on his feet and he got pretty flustered. In situations like that you have to keep your cool.
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NonZeroSum
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Re: Piers Morgan vs George Mombiot

Post by NonZeroSum »

brimstoneSalad wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:14 pm
Jebus wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:07 pm
He's just new to the vegan term and all it encompasses, he's not thinking of it like a lifestyle, but an industry that is already economically outmoded and in need of gov lobbying to put livestock funding into nature reserve tourism initiatives.

Rewilding & Flooding
https://youtu.be/eI_9htGKYDQ

The Wild Horses that are Rewilding Britain
https://youtu.be/6VZcXylPrO4

He did have a very English "this is preposterous" manners shocked moment at the beginning that he never fully recovered from, where's Hitchens quick wit when you need it aha.

Hopefully plant based news can steer him on the right path and give him a bit more confidence in speaking his peace:
https://twitter.com/GeorgeMonbiot/status/917343553793249280
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Jamie in Chile
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Re: Piers Morgan vs George Monbiot

Post by Jamie in Chile »

Here is a post I made on another forum last year about George Monbiot.

I'll copy and paste it as it is another veg forum so could be a competitor to this one: (looks like the links haven't survived copy and paste, but should be easy to find by googling and I think some were posted above)

Monbiot is a smart guy - I enjoyed his writings on travel some years ago- but hasn't got past the mainstream arguments on animal welfare and environment. Fundamental animal rights is too far for him. Ethically he knows or suspects veganism is ahead, but doesn't really think eating meat is bad enough to make real, complete sacrifices.

In December 2002, Monbiot came out for veganism, citing famine and sustainability: George Monbiot: Why vegans were right all along "It's impossible to avoid the conclusion that the only sustainable and socially just option is for the inhabitants of the rich world to become, like most of the earth's people, broadly vegan, eating meat only on special occasions like Christmas."

In 2010, he returned to the subject, saying:
"I was wrong about veganism. Let them eat meat – but farm it properly"
Simon Fairlie: Meat, A Benign Extravagance is the book he read and based his article on
The core argument of this article is perhaps in this paragraph.
"If pigs are fed on residues and waste, and cattle on straw, stovers and grass from fallows and rangelands – food for which humans don't compete – meat becomes a very efficient means of food production. Even though it is tilted by the profligate use of grain in rich countries, the global average conversion ratio of useful plant food to useful meat is not the 5:1 or 10:1 cited by almost everyone, but less than 2:1. If we stopped feeding edible grain to animals, we could still produce around half the current global meat supply with no loss to human nutrition: in fact it's a significant net gain."

In 2013, he changed back in favour of veganism again:
Why I'm eating my words on veganism – again | George Monbiot
Saying: "Part of the problem is that while livestock could be fed on waste and rangelands, ever less of the meat we eat in the rich nations is produced this way." And adding: "I also came to see extensive livestock rearing as a lot less benign than I – or Fairlie – had assumed. The damage done to biodiversity, to water catchments and carbon stores by sheep and cattle grazing in places unsuitable for arable farming (which means, by and large, the hills) is out of all proportion to the amount of meat produced. Wasteful and destructive as feeding grain to livestock is, ranching appears to be even worse."

In this 2013 article, he says "I tried [a vegan diet] for 18 months and almost faded away. I lost two stone, went as white as a washbasin and could scarcely concentrate. I think I managed the diet badly; some people appear to thrive on it." Now then, I am assuming he tried the diet between 2002 and 2010. Perhaps this failure might have been a factor in his 2010 article? it does seem a common theme the people who decide they want to give up a vegan diet, then seek for a moral position to justify it.

He concludes the article saying: "So can I follow Al Gore, and do it better than I did before? Well, I intend at least to keep cutting my consumption of animal products, and to see how far I can go. It's not easy, especially for a person as greedy and impetuous as I am, but there has to be a way."

Which is brings us on to this week's article, the one already posted above in the OP
I’ve converted to veganism to reduce my impact on the living world | George Monbiot
So now he's mostly vegan. ie not actually vegan.
Jamie in Chile
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Re: Piers Morgan vs George Mombiot

Post by Jamie in Chile »

However this month he came out with another article that arguably represents another shift in his position towards a more vegan position, focusing more on ethics than just the environment.

"What will future generations, looking back on our age, see as its monstrosities? We think of slavery, the subjugation of women, judicial torture, the murder of heretics, imperial conquest and genocide, the first world war and the rise of fascism, and ask ourselves how people could have failed to see the horror of what they did. What madness of our times will revolt our descendants?

There are plenty to choose from. But one of them, I believe, will be the mass incarceration of animals, to enable us to eat their flesh or eggs or drink their milk. While we call ourselves animal lovers, and lavish kindness on our dogs and cats, we inflict brutal deprivations on billions of animals that are just as capable of suffering. The hypocrisy is so rank that future generations will marvel at how we could have failed to see it."

The above is spot on.

The article continues to talk more about artifical meat and environmental considerations, but concludes as follows:

"It’s time to abandon the excuses, the fake facts and false comforts. It is time to see our moral choices as our descendants will."

Goodbye – and good riddance – to livestock farming | George Monbiot
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