is eating eggs ethical?

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eloine
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is eating eggs ethical?

Post by eloine » Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:15 am

I am asking this question because I watched several videos of "unatural vegan" (that's how I found about this forum)
and she seems to be ok with eating eggs if animals are treated good, and I am not sure but she also seems to be ok with dairies .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAHNs8iGTb8

I am a bit disapointed, I love her videos, but I don't agree, to me, even if chicken have "good treatment", it is still stealing the egg from the chicken, then why do we eat chicken eggs and not other birds eggs? why the chiken should be the unluckiest one that we don't allow to live its live free in nature to raise her babies?

and with milk and cheese, I just think it is gross to milk a cow and to drink the milk which is supposed to be for her babies, not for humans.

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ma3xiu1
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Post by ma3xiu1 » Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:34 am

"Unnatural Vegan" seems to be a so-called "tentative vegan", which means that while she believes it is possible in theory to acquire eggs and dairy in an ethical manner, in practice for most of us it is not feasible (eg. we must rely on unethical egg and dairy industries), and so with no way to guarantee that these products have been ethically sourced, tentative vegans will refuse to consume these products.

You on the other hand seem to believe that it is impossible to ethically source egg and dairy products, and there is certainly a case to be made for that view.

For myself, I still am undecided, but either way I will not be consuming those products.

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Post by ma3xiu1 » Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:41 am

I forgot to add: because "Unnatural Vegan" is not advocating for the consumption of eggs and dairy, the nutritional information in her videos is still useful, even if you don't agree with her "tentative vegan" ethical views.

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brimstoneSalad
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Post by brimstoneSalad » Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:14 pm

I think ma3xiu1 covered it well. She doesn't eat eggs or dairy, or recommend anybody eat them. She was just talking about hypothetical cases, not the industry which is cruel.

For example, if you had a pet chicken which you love and care for, and will not kill (in the egg industry, the chickens are killed when the egg production is reduced), and the chicken laid eggs and just left them there, then using them may not be wrong.

It's important to remember that like people, chickens are different.
Some chickens love and care for their eggs, and are very possessive of them like with her babies. Taking these eggs would cause the chicken distress and harm her. Other chickens just lay their eggs anywhere and leave them, and don't care about it.

SO, it depends on the individual. Of course we should not steal a chicken's eggs. But if the chicken doesn't want them, maybe it's not stealing.
It's an interesting discussion. I think we need to learn more about chickens. I never want to eat eggs, though.

But the egg industry doesn't care about that. They will take the eggs whether the chicken wants them or not, because it's a business, and they think the eggs belong to them.

Aside from that, I think there's reason to believe that eggs are not healthy for people, so there's also the moral consideration about protecting our health for our loved ones, and not encouraging people to eat something that's particularly bad for them when there are much better options (like a tofu scramble :) ).

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Post by eloine » Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:04 pm

yeah maybe, but I don't think I could eat any chicken eggs, if the chicken cares about them or not, it's like eating a fetus so it is just to gross to me now ( I can't believe I ate eggs all my life and never looked at them at what they truly are, I convinced myself that they were necessary for my health) but yeah now I know that chia seeds or flax seeds can replace eggs in cakes for instance and are healthier...
but one thing I am concerned is where can I get enough choline???

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Post by ma3xiu1 » Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:27 pm

For info on where to get choline:
http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/choline

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brimstoneSalad
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Post by brimstoneSalad » Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:23 pm

eloine wrote:yeah maybe, but I don't think I could eat any chicken eggs, if the chicken cares about them or not, it's like eating a fetus so it is just to gross to me now ( I can't believe I ate eggs all my life and never looked at them at what they truly are, I convinced myself that they were necessary for my health)
I agree, it's really gross. Although the biology is different, people call them "chicken period", and that's not far off.

http://www.peta2.com/blog/are_eggs_chicken_periods_a_nurse_gives_the_lowdown/

Disgust often originates from moral revulsion, and I think it can be good: it keeps us honest if we ever feel weak or have a craving. We can just remember what it is and say "no way".
eloine wrote:but yeah now I know that chia seeds or flax seeds can replace eggs in cakes for instance and are healthier...
Definitely! And can give you a lot of Omega 3.

eloine wrote:but one thing I am concerned is where can I get enough choline???
Broccoli, Cauliflower, and Soy are pretty good sources.

ma3xiu1 posted a good link. I'll linkify it:
http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/choline
Choline is in a lot of things in small amounts, so it adds up if you eat well.

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eloine
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Post by eloine » Thu Jun 16, 2016 1:24 pm

something else I am wondering at the moment, don't know if i should make a post for it, but it seems in history at school, students learn that this is eating animal products which developped human brain...
to me it's like a propaganda to influence people to eat more animals!! it is a fake scientific study because what I learned when I was in school was very different from this theory, I learned that actually egyptians were 95% vegetarians and only ate from time to time some fishes and that what built human brain is the fact that by the time of australopitecs, trees started to become rare and the desert increased so prehistoric australopitecs had to come down trees and start walking which made them more able to use their hands and after some time they became more and more clever and able to build stuffs and to draw and paint and build tools like poteries for instance and this is actually art that developed their intelligence but for a long time their diet was only plant based and they only ate dead animals they found of the ground or rests from lions for a long time....
sorry my bad english, hope I don't make to much mistakes ...as this is not my first language

To me it is obvious that eating animals is what retarded human's evolution and this is art music and painting and philosophy which increased human's intelligence...all of the great civilisations from the past that we still remember today were in advance of their time because of what they were capable to build and to create, not because of their ability to kill animals
Last edited by eloine on Thu Jun 16, 2016 1:36 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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eloine
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Post by eloine » Thu Jun 16, 2016 1:25 pm

makes me angry that they changed the theory of human evolution to something to influence people to eat more animal products..

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brimstoneSalad
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Post by brimstoneSalad » Thu Jun 16, 2016 1:38 pm

eloine wrote:it seems in history at school, students learn that this is eating animal products which developped human brain... to me it's like a propaganda to influence people to eat more animals!! it is a fake scientific study
You're right. When schools advocate that, they're advocating pseudoscience.

There's this idea called "the expensive tissue hypothesis", which says that the brain and the gut are metabolically expensive, and that in order to have a larger brain and more intelligence, an animal needs a simpler gut. It has been proved wrong by analysis of different animals, since there is no such inverse correlation in nature. It actually has more to do with efficient locomotion.

In our evolution, we may have greatly benefitted from more nutritious diets, but it's just as likely (even more so) that this came from our learning how to cook and use root vegetables as sources of nutrition. Starches, not meat, are probably more responsible for our evolutionary success.

It's not clear all of the pressures that caused us to develop high intelligence, but most of it probably has to do with, as you said, coming down from trees. Locomotion also factors into this: walking is much more efficient for humans than for our relatives. We save calories on locomotion, which gives us more calories for big brains.
eloine wrote:which made them more able to use their hands and after some time they became more and more clever and able to build stuffs and to draw and paint and build tools like poteries for instance and this is actually art that developed their intelligence...
That's a good theory too. Since we can't go back in time, we can't know 100% all of the causes, but tool use and language and our gradual development of technology probably had a lot to do with it.

Also, human competition with other humans may have introduced an evolutionary arms race for intelligence.

Instead of claiming that human warfare created our high intelligence, they all want to say it was meat because they think it gives them an excuse to eat it today -- despite there being no evidence of that.
No matter what developed human intelligence in the past, that's in the past. We have it now, and they are ignorant of evolution if they think not doing that thing will cause its loss -- evolution is only affected by selective pressure. A vegan diet can provide all nutrition needs, and statistically vegetarians are more intelligent, so there's no reason to believe that meat is necessary or useful for the development of intelligence.

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