What should I say to my ex-vegan friend?

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Lightningman_42
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What should I say to my ex-vegan friend?

Post by Lightningman_42 »

Hello everyone on the forum,
Unfortunately today I discovered that a friend of mine (who was formerly a vegan) decided to once again consume the body parts of animals and their nipple secretions. She stated in a Facebook status update a few hours ago that she decided to start eating "copious amounts" of "meat and dairy products as of last week."
My immediate emotional reaction to this post was a feeling of shock, followed by anger and disappointment. If I let my emotions dictate my actions on this matter, then I will likely send her a private message expressing condemnation of her character. She has at least some level of knowledge about what happens to animals whose lives are controlled by the meat and dairy industries. How can someone with that knowledge, as well as experience with being vegan, go back to supporting the exploitation and abuse of innocent sentient beings, in good conscience? Fortunately, I won't let my emotions dictate my actions. Expressing anger at other people's flaws is unproductive; I've had to learn this the hard way a few times. I'm wiser than that now.
My current plan is to ask her in a calm manner why she made this change. "Were you unsatisfied with your vegan diet. Why did it seem difficult and/or unsatisfying? Why exactly did you want to become vegan in the first place? Here's what I would ask of anyone on the forum who has had similar experiences: What should I say to her to best understand why she made this choice? Next, what should I say to inspire her to go back to being vegan?
As you think about this, I'd like to share what I know about her choices regarding veganism:

-When I first met her about 3 years ago, she was an ovo-lacto vegetarian. Not vegan. She expressed interest in veganism, but seemed concerned about its "difficulty" and possible "health problems."

-It was just a few months ago that she asked me:
My friend wrote:"Hey {my name}, you're a vegan, right? I've been eating vegan for about a week now, and I'd like to make the switch. What sort of advice can you give me?"
I gave her a list of vegan cooking websites to check out, as well as some recommendations of good pseudodairy products. Since then, I haven't spoken with her much, and not at all about veganism. I'm now having my doubts about how serious she really was about it. I also feel guilty about not asking her about her progress from time to time, and reminding her that I'm always willing to go out of my way to help anyone who is struggling with being vegan.

-I know that in some way she cares about the well-being of animals, but I don't know if her motivation to become vegetarian (and later vegan) was emotional/sentimental in nature, or truly ethical in nature (based on careful thinking about ethics and our moral obligations to other sentient beings).

I'm feeling rather disappointed and disheartened at the moment. I would greatly appreciate insight on how to understand her choice and inspire her to be vegan again. I've met some very defensive nonvegans, and so I will be very careful about how I speak to her. I don't want to F*@& this up...

P.S. PrincessPeach, I'm especially curious to hear your thoughts on this matter. I read one of your recent posts about your friend (the one with a PETA tattoo on her leg) who stopped caring. I'm sorry to hear about that. At the time I read that I could only imagine what it feels like to experience that kind of disappointment in a friend. Now I know.
PrincessPeach wrote:It sucks when a vegan stops caring.
Yes it does.
"The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil but because of those who look on and do nothing."
-Albert Einstein
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: What should I say to my ex-vegan friend?

Post by brimstoneSalad »

She's less likely to listen to anything you have to say than a random person on the street would be.
Her cognitive dissonance, if she ever did care, is going to be extremely strong and she will probably react rudely and very defensively against anything you say to her, no matter how nice.

You think the average person can be defensive? That's nothing.
If you talk to her at all, be prepared for the worst conversation you've ever had in your life.

As to her motives: Check her relationship status. Some fundamentalist vegan hating carnist she just started dating probably talked her out of it. She's probably insecure, and is mirroring his opinions since she has no mind of her own (had chosen not to, due to self-loathing).
I doubt she was vegan for any legitimate philosophical reason. In part she was probably trying to lose weight, due to body image issues. The times you talked to her and she expressed any sentiment toward animals was probably an expression of saying what she thought she should be saying to be perceived positively by you. For people with no self esteem (it doesn't really sound like her character merits it, but I don't know the situation), being positively regarded by others is a kind of drug.

When she asked you about going vegan, she was single, correct? In your age range, and social circle? And you were single at the time too?
She was probably hitting on you, in a round-about way, by taking interest in your interests and trying to see if you were interested in her. She may have convinced herself she cared about animals too, sure, but that's hardly likely to have been her motivation. Likely, she would never have stayed vegan unless you started a relationship with her (which is not a useful form of vegan outreach, since as soon as you broke up she'd start eating meat again).

Lots of speculation, yes, and I could be wrong on a number of points, but hopefully that will help you work out what happened.

I would not advise that you talk to her, since it's unlikely to be productive. Instead, redouble your outreach efforts to others. She probably won't reach out to you, as she will be too ashamed and afraid of what you might say.
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Jebus
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Re: What should I say to my ex-vegan friend?

Post by Jebus »

I don't get this either. Was she really a full on vegan who avoided leather, silk etc. or was she only on a plant-based diet. My guess is she did it for dietary reasons, or possibly because she thought it was a "cool" thing as it got her some attention. I would try to get her to watch Earthlings ASAP.
How to become vegan in 4.5 hours:
1.Watch Forks over Knives (Health)
2.Watch Cowspiracy (Environment)
3. Watch Earthlings (Ethics)
Congratulations, unless you are a complete idiot you are now a vegan.
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Lightningman_42
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Re: What should I say to my ex-vegan friend?

Post by Lightningman_42 »

brimstoneSalad wrote:She's less likely to listen to anything you have to say than a random person on the street would be.
Her cognitive dissonance, if she ever did care, is going to be extremely strong and she will probably react rudely and very defensively against anything you say to her, no matter how nice.
That's why I'm unsure of how to approach the topic, and whether or not I should even bring it up. I used to think of her as being at least somewhat mature, and unlikely to react in a manner like you're describing. However this unexpected FB post about her return to animal consumption (in which she certainly did not express any remorse) has made me completely discard any assumptions I've so far made about her character. As far as I can tell she either stopped caring or was rather wishy-washy to begin with. Either way I've lost respect for her.
brimstoneSalad wrote:You think the average person can be defensive? That's nothing.
If you talk to her at all, be prepared for the worst conversation you've ever had in your life.
More like the second-worst conversation I've ever had. In the past I've spoken with someone I knew who was belligerently anti-vegan in his beliefs. It was a rather short and shaky friendship that I should've ended much sooner, but when I finally did I seriously thought he would inflict violence upon me. He also happened to be about twice my weight and generally had a hot-headed personality.
It seems I'm kind of getting off topic here. Anyways, yes, I do understand your point. I agree that it would likely be an unpleasant conversation. So far I've had very unpleasant conversations (at least one each) with four people in my life who were either friend or family. I've found that conversations about disagreement over ethics are especially bad with people I'm close to. I'd like to clarify that the ex-vegan friend I'm referring to with this post is someone of the same academic year (and age) whom I met (I think) at my dorms during Freshman year. I used to hang out with her more often, but not so much in my later years as a UCSC student.
brimstoneSalad wrote:As to her motives: Check her relationship status. Some fundamentalist vegan hating carnist she just started dating probably talked her out of it. She's probably insecure, and is mirroring his opinions since she has no mind of her own (had chosen not to, due to self-loathing).
I doubt she was vegan for any legitimate philosophical reason. In part she was probably trying to lose weight, due to body image issues. The times you talked to her and she expressed any sentiment toward animals was probably an expression of saying what she thought she should be saying to be perceived positively by you. For people with no self esteem (it doesn't really sound like her character merits it, but I don't know the situation), being positively regarded by others is a kind of drug.
She was already a vegetarian by the beginning of our Freshman year (September 2011), and she certainly did not do that to make me like her (because I was a meat-eater; I did not become vegetarian until March 2012; I became vegan in March 2014).
brimstoneSalad wrote:When she asked you about going vegan, she was single, correct? In your age range? And social circle? And you were single at the time too?
Maybe, Yes, Yes, and Yes to your 4 questions (in that order). She has known me to be a vegetarian since late Freshman year, but first asked if I was vegan a few months ago. I say "Maybe" to your first question because she sometimes mentioned her boyfriend during our first two years at UCSC but not at all to me during our third and fourth years. Should I assume that they broke up? During the summer between our second and third years, a mutual friend of ours once briefly mentioned to me some emotional struggles of hers. I didn't ask her about it directly because whatever it really was, it seemed like a touchy subject. Maybe I should have. I don't know.
brimstoneSalad wrote:She was probably hitting on you, in a round-about way, by taking interest in your interests and trying to see if you were interested in her. She may have convinced herself she cared about animals too, sure, but that's hardly likely to have been her motivation.
She might have been hitting on me? I hadn't really thought of that. I often have trouble noticing if a teenage girl or young-adult lady is hitting on me, simply being kind, or expressing her default personality. This is something that I consider to be a character flaw of mine and I'd like to work on improving. I need to get better at noticing subtle stuff like this.
At the time I thought that she genuinely cared about animals and was determined to be an ethical vegan for their sake. This was a naive assumption of mine because we spoke briefly while eating lunch together, and she had to leave soon, so I didn't ask her reason for wanting to adopt a vegan diet. I know that she used to be a vegetarian for either ethical or emotional reasons, hence my assumption. I'm now inclined to assume that the latter was the truth.
brimstoneSalad wrote:Likely, she would never have stayed vegan unless you started a relationship with her (which is not a useful form of vegan outreach, since as soon as you broke up she'd start eating meat again).
Well I certainly won't be in a relationship with someone simply to make her become vegan. If someone is a full-out vegan, I would hope that she's doing it for...
1. the animals
2. the environment, and
3. maybe also for health reasons.
...and not do it for the sake of attention and/or gaining the approval of other humans. Personally I'm not yet sure if I'd be willing to be in a relationship with a nonvegan at all (unless, at least, she's already considering doing it for well-thought-out ethical reasons). I likely would not want to be in a relationship with someone who is vegan purely for emotional (not truly ethical) reasons.
brimstoneSalad wrote:Lots of speculation, yes, and I could be wrong on a number of points, but hopefully that will help you work out what happened. I would not advise that you talk to her, since it's unlikely to be productive. Instead, redouble your outreach efforts to others. She probably won't reach out to you, as she will be too ashamed and afraid of what you might say.
I wish I knew more about this situation, and what the #@&& has been going through her head lately to do something like this. It seems like you've made some good assumptions based on what little information I've presented you with. Perhaps now with my responses you can reassess how likely your initial assumptions were. Thank you for your insights so far.
"The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil but because of those who look on and do nothing."
-Albert Einstein
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Lightningman_42
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Re: What should I say to my ex-vegan friend?

Post by Lightningman_42 »

Jebus wrote:I don't get this either. Was she really a full on vegan who avoided leather, silk etc. or was she only on a plant-based diet. My guess is she did it for dietary reasons, or possibly because she thought it was a "cool" thing as it got her some attention.
I don't know. Like I said in my responses to brimstoneSalad, she was a vegetarian for either ethical or emotional reasons. She told me a few months ago that she wanted to become vegan (although it was unclear if she was referring to the diet component or the entire lifestyle), but she left soon and I did not ask her why.
Jebus wrote:I would try to get her to watch Earthlings ASAP.
I would very much love for anyone and everyone I know to watch Earthlings, as well as Gary Yourofsky's "Why Vegan" 2010 Georgia Tech speech. Unfortunately I don't know how to inspire nonvegans to watch them. On one hand carnists are in denial about the severity of their actions, claiming (about farms and slaughterhouses) that: "It's really not that bad. Vegans are just exaggerating." On the other hand though, they refuse to witness the truth because they can't stomach the sight of animal cruelty. The hypocrisy and cowardice of carnists is overwhelming. In my head I'm asking myself: "So how about it, carnists? Do you know and acknowledge the truth, or do you not!? Make up your mind already!
"The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil but because of those who look on and do nothing."
-Albert Einstein
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EquALLity
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Re: What should I say to my ex-vegan friend?

Post by EquALLity »

Ugh. :/

I haven't been in this situation, but maybe it wouldn't be such a bad idea to talk to her about it, cautiously? It can't hurt, right?

Is she generally rational?

Does she check out what you post on FB at all? Maybe you should post one of those short and sneaky vegan videos, like this, if you think she won't watch 'Earthlings': https://www.facebook.com/CompassionOver ... nref=story
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Lightningman_42
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Re: What should I say to my ex-vegan friend?

Post by Lightningman_42 »

EquALLity wrote:Ugh. :/

I haven't been in this situation, but maybe it wouldn't be such a bad idea to talk to her about it, cautiously? It can't hurt, right?

Is she generally rational?
She's generally rational, but I have no idea how she'll react to me questioning her reasons for going back to eating animals. After all, this seemed rather out of character for her and took me by surprise. It made me think that I really don't understand her so well after all.
EquALLity wrote:Does she check out what you post on FB at all? Maybe you should post one of those short and sneaky vegan videos, like this, if you think she won't watch 'Earthlings': https://www.facebook.com/CompassionOver ... nref=story
I share all sorts of veganism-related posts on Facebook. Sadly most of them are ignored. Sometimes I get two "likes" at most, but usually zero, and no comments. Nonvegans seem to be either so ignorant or in-denial that my posts either fly over their heads or intimidate them. I'd rather get negative comments on my Facebook posts than none at all, at least that way I'd know that people are seeing the truth that I want to reveal to everyone.

When my ex-vegan friend posted "Enter full omnivore mode" as her status update, she ended up with 11 "likes" within 4 hours, as well as some positive comments of encouragement. Go figure...
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Re: What should I say to my ex-vegan friend?

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ArmouredAbolitionist wrote:She's generally rational, but I have no idea how she'll react to me questioning her reasons for going back to eating animals. After all, this seemed rather out of character for her and took me by surprise. It made me think that I really don't understand her so well after all.
Hm. Worth a shot to talk to her, right? Especially if you think she might be rational?

Yeah, I would question someone's rationality if they started doing things like that. But maybe it's still worth a shot?

If you talk to her about it, and she gets pissy-pissy, you tried, right? And you'll just not talk to her again. Wouldn't that be the outcome anyway, if you didn't talk to her at all about it? So what's there to lose?
ArmouredAbolitionist wrote:I share all sorts of veganism-related posts on Facebook. Sadly most of them are ignored. Sometimes I get two "likes" at most, but usually zero, and no comments. Nonvegans seem to be either so ignorant or in-denial that my posts either fly over their heads or intimidate them. I'd rather get negative comments on my Facebook posts than none at all, at least that way I'd know that people are seeing the truth that I want to reveal to everyone.
The cognitive dissonance and denialism are strong. :/
ArmouredAbolitionist wrote:When my ex-vegan friend posted "Enter full omnivore mode" as her status update, she ended up with 11 "likes" within 4 hours, as well as some positive comments of encouragement. Go figure...
Positive comments of encouragement? What?

"Hey, glad to hear you're killing animals again! :)"

sigh
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: What should I say to my ex-vegan friend?

Post by brimstoneSalad »

Was her boyfriend before vegetarian? It seems probable.

If she mentioned him, and then stopped, it's likely they broke up. If somebody doesn't mention a significant other for a year, there probably is none (given that girls in particular seem to have a tendency to mention their boyfriends regularly in conversation, while boys tend less to unless they're talking about sex at which point they like to catalog them).

It seems like she was hitting on you, and that didn't pan out, and she found a rabidly anti-vegan carnist to date (or one she likes), and subsequently changed her "opinions" on everything to match his.
Don't spend too much time thinking about this, it's unlikely any real thought was involved on her side of things.
People say men "think" with their genitals; a lot of women do too.

As to all of the congratulations and support she got: People are happy to welcome people eating meat again, because it reconfirms their own biases. It makes them feel better about what they do.

Where a vegan might think "That's cool, congrats!" An omnivore will think "Ha! Veganism is wrong! We win! I was right all along!"
Kind of like the difference between when a theist becomes an atheist "Hey, good for you!", and when an atheist becomes a theist again "Ha, we said Atheists were wrong all along, even atheists know it! We're right after all!"

There's a big difference in feelings of personal insecurity that drive a lot more enthusiasm when somebody "reconfirms" an obviously wrong position.
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Re: What should I say to my ex-vegan friend?

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Can you tell us what happened with this? Did you end up saying anything? If you said something, what was it, and how did the person react? Just curious.
"I am not a Marxist." -Karl Marx
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