Im concerned..

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starkvarg
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Im concerned..

Post by starkvarg »

Im thinking about to start the vegan diet (mostly because i feel sorry for the animals), however im not 100% convinced that this type of diet would be beneficial for me. I am concerned and I would really appreciate some explanation.
Our stomach produces very strong hydrochloric acid (HCL) and the pH of the human stomach ranges from 1 to 3, so its really acidic and he high acidity levels are normally associated with scavengers. Also the length, digestive enzymes and function of our stomach are nearly identical to carnivore digestive systems. Feels like that the difference between us and the carnivores are that we can extract and utilize carbohydrates in plants (but not cellulose), so we are biologically omnivorous.
Is there any research which shows that the vegan diet is actually healthier than the omnivorous diet? I usually eat ecological meat and dairy (like pastured grass fed beef) + nightshades, furits, veggies, nuts, sometimes grains, and i feel like that i get most of my energy from meat.
I tried to eat plant based recently but i only lasted for one week, I felt light headed, weak and hungry all the time. I usually eat 2-3 times a day (no snacks), but during that week i was tired constantly and i was thinking about meet all the time.. :(
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: Im concerned..

Post by brimstoneSalad »

Arguing from evolution or physiology (sharp teeth, flat teeth, etc.) is a poor argument. Not only are there many obvious counter-examples (Red Panda eat mainly bamboo), but the "natural" diet tells us nothing about which diet is optimal. Consider the pros and cons:

For pros, while in "the wild" eating meat may be advantageous as a source of nutrients, modern humans have access to highly nutritious legumes, grains, and veggies (including the ability to cook to increase digestibility) all year. We also have B-12 supplements. This makes the benefits of meat in the modern world virtually non-existent.

In terms of cons, modern humans live much longer (as do domesticated animals) and have less active lifestyles, meaning what may have been a non-issue in "the wild" like carcinogens or substances that increase cardiovascular risk becomes much more concerning in the modern world with people regularly living into 60s, 70s etc.
We don't have to worry about starving anymore due to a bad hunt, or being eaten ourselves by saber tooth cats, but with increasing longevity comes risk factors that have never been very meaningful in our evolutionary history. When you only lived into your 40s and were running around all the time cancer and heart disease just were'n't really issues that your physiology had to adapt to.

In a civilized/domesticated setting, I'd argue a vegan diet is better even for animals like dogs which "in the wild" ate far more meat than our near relatives (chimps, etc. who eat only around 10% of calories from animal products), and while we have limited data on that, existing anecdotes seem to suggest dogs live longer on plant based diets too.

When it comes to humans, there are few large vegan populations to study. Remember that B-12 was only discovered in the late 1940s as the missing nutrient that once made strict veganism impossible. Now that we have supplements, people can be vegan. But because of this there are no traditional vegan populations.

However, there are many populations of low-meat eaters. If you look at the longest lived people, from the Mediterranean diet to the Okinawan diet, you see a trend of less animal product consumption. So moving in the plant-based direction is undoubtedly superior from a health perspective.
We also have some limited evidence from modern vegans that suggests vegan populations live longer.

It's hard to say if there is very much difference in eating very little meat vs. no meat. The fact is that only a small amount of something isn't going to show up in the mortality data (like a population that smoked 1 cigarette a week isn't likely going to have a visible impact on mortality).
But we can see the trends and we know at least that people should not be eating much animal product, so you have nothing to lose by reducing your meat consumption. Just make sure you replace it with nutritious foods like beans and legumes, and take a vitamin.

In terms of hunger, that probably has to do with calorie intake. You need to try out some recipes with more healthy plant-based fats and proteins to keep you full and nourished. Just take your time transitioning and reducing your animal product consumption step by step, learning how to replace things as you go. Sometimes going too fast can result in rebound because we're left not knowing what to eat. There's a little learning curve there.

I hope that helps answer your questions. :)
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cornivore
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Re: Im concerned..

Post by cornivore »

starkvarg wrote: Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:59 pm Is there any research which shows that the vegan diet is actually healthier than the omnivorous diet?
Here's an article I referenced in another topic (and I think the above answer is good info too).
Conclusions
The use of indexing systems, estimating the overall diet quality based on different aspects of healthful dietary models (be it the US Dietary Guidelines for Americans or the compliance to the Mediterranean Diet) indicated consistently the vegan diet as the most healthy one.
Comparison of Nutritional Quality of the Vegan, Vegetarian, Semi-Vegetarian, Pesco-Vegetarian and Omnivorous Diet
starkvarg wrote: Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:59 pmI usually eat ecological meat and dairy (like pastured grass fed beef) + nightshades, furits, veggies, nuts, sometimes grains, and i feel like that i get most of my energy from meat.
I tried to eat plant based recently but i only lasted for one week, I felt light headed, weak and hungry all the time. I usually eat 2-3 times a day (no snacks), but during that week i was tired constantly and i was thinking about meet all the time.. :(
Good of you to try. It may involve some adapting too, or experimenting to find what foods work for you. Vegetable oils have a lot of calories, and can enhance the flavor of grains for a good amount of energy. Eating a loaf of french bread would give me an energy boost for example. Although Ive only been eating every 48 hours for the past month, and have exercised in the process which is actually refreshing (as far as adapting goes, I get enough energy from one vegan meal for two days, although I have some extra fat stored on my body, and also some olympians were said to eat a vegan diet in training, so apparently they got as much energy as could possibly be used from this kind of food). One thing I've noticed is that it may feel different, but isn't significant to me physically, I may feel like I'm vegetating at times, but if I exercise, it raises my energy levels, so that might help you feel more energetic too. I think the whole "low carb" hype is nonsense, unless people are overeating (which is what they seem to be trying to accomplish with low carb diets), but I'd say try to get plenty of unsaturated fats and complex carbohydrates, and there should be a good amount of energy there (by the way, an adult practically has to starve to death to become protein deficient, so it shouldn't be a major concern—that's also hyped I think—even a cow can outrun a person, no matter how much protein powder that person eats). Well I'm not trying to discourage anyone from eating whatever vegan food works for them (how ever often they like to eat it), just sharing my point of view and personal experience on the matter.

I'm kind of amazed that I've adapted to my unusual dietary concept so far (but it makes perfect sense if you look at how wild animals can endure a lifestyle of feast an famine in much harsher conditions, and still perform physically like the amazing creatures they are—the herbivores are no less well adapted either, so eating isn't everything, only about half of that picture, and people are more into making their hearts beat faster while sitting around, as far as what to do with that extra energy we stockpile). Before starting the intermittent fasting, I just took a look at a big wire shelf I got to store food on and thought, well that's about what I'm walking around with, so I decided to get more energy from my internal shelves, so to speak, and see where my bodyweight levels out. I'm talking about this merely to give you an example though, as for how people can adapt to various diets. It is important to balance a diet in any case (I just think the RDA values are most significant for children or their mothers, and so I get a variety of nutrients, but not by the numbers, yet I supplement some things too, you just never know about those—there have been studies that show some to have far less of what their labels claim). Foods might also be fortified with vitamins, like pasta, so you might want to get that kind, I think it costs about the same (except for the high protein kind—something new I've seen lately, but think that's silly—I don't eat much of it, and my muscles have recovered stronger as I've been running on uneven surfaces, so I see protein as a placebo for the most part, there's plenty in unfortified plant foods, but who knows, maybe for you it isn't a placebo effect, or you're used to feeling a certain way regardless, people often eat more for pleasure; although I don't miss eating an omnivorous diet, since everything else in one is typically flavored with plants anyway).
Last edited by cornivore on Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:17 am, edited 8 times in total.
carnap
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Re: Im concerned..

Post by carnap »

starkvarg wrote: Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:59 pm Is there any research which shows that the vegan diet is actually healthier than the omnivorous diet?
This question is largely meaningless because "vegan diet" and "omnivorous diet" refer to classes of diets and not specific diets. There are some observational studies that try to compare classes of diet (vegan, vegetarian, etc) but there isn't much you can conclude about them. For example even if you assumed that vegan diets on average had better health outcomes that weren't due to confounding variables, it could still be the case that an omnivorous eating pattern is most optimal. The situation gets more complicated when you consider that there really is no one-size-fits-all diet, what is most healthful for one person may not be for another. This is an area of nutritional science that is very immature, we are just starting to understand the interaction of diet with specific gene variants.
starkvarg wrote: Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:59 pm I tried to eat plant based recently but i only lasted for one week, I felt light headed, weak and hungry all the time. I usually eat 2-3 times a day (no snacks), but during that week i was tired constantly and i was thinking about meet all the time.. :(
That is most likely from not eating enough in terms of calories or protein. Even if you were having some subtle issue with a plant-based diet its not something that would impact you that quickly.
I'm here to exploit you schmucks into demonstrating the blatant anti-intellectualism in the vegan community and the reality of veganism. But I can do that with any user name.
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cornivore
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Re: Im concerned..

Post by cornivore »

carnap wrote: Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:59 am This question is largely meaningless because "vegan diet" and "omnivorous diet" refer to classes of diets and not specific diets.
There are numerous specific health problems that result (or occur more often) from eating one "class" of diet over another in that case. It is well documented too. Certainly there have not been as many complications associated with balanced vegan diets (perhaps none for that matter). Actually, food poisoning would be one problem that can result from either, although around three times more deaths occur from food poisoning in diets other than vegan: Estimates of Foodborne Illness in the United States... "These are our most comprehensive estimates available to answer the question: which foods make us ill?"
carnap
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Re: Im concerned..

Post by carnap »

cornivore wrote: Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:33 am There are numerous specific health problems that result (or occur more often) from eating one "class" of diet over another in that case. It is well documented too. Certainly there haven't been as many associated with balanced vegan diets (perhaps none for that matter).
I'm not sure what you think has been well documented but I don't think it matters for the point I'm making. My point is that comparing dietary classes is problematic, not only are the studies themselves difficult to conduct but you cannot conclude much from them since they cover very general dietary categories rather than specific dietary patterns. As I noted, its entirely possible that some class of diets does better on average than another even though a specific diet from the second class is the most optimal specific diet.

In terms of vegan diets, every vegan living today will die of some disease at some point. The few studies that have looked at cause of death in vegans show differing rates of some diseases but there is no consistent relationship with all-cause mortality. More or less vegans are dying of the same diseases as other people. But these studies really aren't that interesting, they are largely comparing people with poor diets from one group with people with poor diets in another group.
I'm here to exploit you schmucks into demonstrating the blatant anti-intellectualism in the vegan community and the reality of veganism. But I can do that with any user name.
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cornivore
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Re: Im concerned..

Post by cornivore »

Comparing dietary classes is not problematic for determining which of them result in more food poisoning (or its severity), for example. Another thing about that is, since more people die from the same toxins in non plant foods, such as meat and dairy, perhaps something about those foods compromises their immune systems, or more bacteria are present when they are contaminated (due to the nature of the animal products), or both.
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Dsalles
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Re: Im concerned..

Post by Dsalles »

As someone who inherited a grass-fed beef farm, I am baffled as to how this system got a reputation for being ecological. Pasture feeding uses much, much more land than confinement feeding, even taking into consideration the land used to grow the feed. The use of antibiotics, pesticides and herbicides are really high in this system as well. I see no benefit from an ecological standpoint at all. From a humane standpoint I can see one, since life in confinement is a daily hell, but pasture raising cattle is very cruel, perhaps less so, but horrible nonetheless. Animals die from stress-induced heart attacks routinely in this system.
carnap
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Re: Im concerned..

Post by carnap »

cornivore wrote: Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:46 am Comparing dietary classes is not problematic for determining which of them result in more food poisoning (or its severity), for example.
The same issues I discussed apply to food poisoning. Comparing dietary classes will obscure information about specific dietary patterns which is really what you care about. Individuals have specific diets, not generalized diets.
I'm here to exploit you schmucks into demonstrating the blatant anti-intellectualism in the vegan community and the reality of veganism. But I can do that with any user name.
carnap
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Re: Im concerned..

Post by carnap »

Dsalles wrote: Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:28 am As someone who inherited a grass-fed beef farm, I am baffled as to how this system got a reputation for being ecological. Pasture feeding uses much, much more land than confinement feeding, even taking into consideration the land used to grow the feed. The use of antibiotics, pesticides and herbicides are really high in this system as well.
Pasture uses more land but the impact on the land is low when managed properly. That is to say, pastured animals can co-exist within the existing eco-system where as confined feeding operations require you to destroy the natural state of the land.

And pesticides and herbicides aren't apply to pasture land so I'm not sure what you're talking about there. And its confined animals, not pastured ones, that more frequently require antibiotics.
I'm here to exploit you schmucks into demonstrating the blatant anti-intellectualism in the vegan community and the reality of veganism. But I can do that with any user name.
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