Probably going to get a dog soon

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Cirion Spellbinder
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Re: Probably going to get a dog soon

Post by Cirion Spellbinder »

Lay Vegan wrote: Sun Mar 25, 2018 2:17 amJust curious, what breed of dog are you adopting (I assume you're adopting)?
First of all, thanks for all the resources. Second of all, I’m not sure yet. We will be adopting and we will be trying to get the muttiest mutt to minimize genetic problems.
carnap
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Re: Probably going to get a dog soon

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Cirion Spellbinder wrote: Sun Mar 25, 2018 4:30 pm I have to agree. Even if the need for long term studies is fallacious, Hanlon’s razor adequately explains the request.
This gets more amusing, so asking for research is "fallacious" and representative of stupidity? Just wow....

Cirion Spellbinder wrote: Sun Mar 25, 2018 4:30 pm Why?
Its just a matter of basic logic/math. Take for example some disease like kidney disease that occurs in some percent of dogs as they age, to know whether some particular diet increases the risk for kidney disease you need to compare a relatively large random sample of dogs on the special diet to dogs not on the diet. A "case study" on the other hand is non-random and you cannot pool together "case studies" unless the evaluation method was the same in all cases.

For example Sigmund Freuds work in psychology was all based on "case studies" and as such it almost all ended up being bullshit.

Cirion Spellbinder wrote: Sun Mar 25, 2018 4:30 pm Well I’m glad you’ve found a way to feel better than the people you think feel better than you.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here....but the point I'm making here is that you guys won't gain any credibility by insulting people when they ask for long-research on the healthfulness of vegan diets for dogs. The opposite will occur, people will just think you're a nutter and they will disregard everything you say on this topic and others.
I'm here to exploit you schmucks into demonstrating the blatant anti-intellectualism in the vegan community and the reality of veganism. But I can do that with any user name.
Cirion Spellbinder
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Re: Probably going to get a dog soon

Post by Cirion Spellbinder »

carnap wrote: Sun Mar 25, 2018 5:07 pmThis gets more amusing, so asking for research is "fallacious" and representative of stupidity? Just wow....
“Even if” implies a degree of impartiality in this context. I haven’t made my mind up on the matter because I want to see how this thread will play out.
carnap wrote:Its just a matter of basic logic/math. Take for example some disease like kidney disease that occurs in some percent of dogs as they age, to know whether some particular diet increases the risk for kidney disease you need to compare a relatively large random sample of dogs on the special diet to dogs not on the diet. A "case study" on the other hand is non-random and you cannot pool together "case studies" unless the evaluation method was the same in all cases.
That makes sense to me, so I think I’d have to agree but I’m not sure how useful it is for this subject matter. Are there long term studies proving the unhealthfulness of vegan dogs and healthfulness of meat based dog diets or do you think the only rational option is pure agnosticism for now? If the latter, don’t you think that weak evidence is better than simply waiting? Or again, as in the former case, is there some strong evidence we haven’t been made aware of?
carnap wrote: I'm not sure what you're trying to say here....but the point I'm making here is that you guys won't gain any credibility by insulting people when they ask for long-research on the healthfulness of vegan diets for dogs. The opposite will occur, people will just think you're a nutter and they will disregard everything you say on this topic and others.
Sure, I agree that brimstoneSalad could be a little nicer (and if she doesn’t think he should, then they should reply to this comment), but don’t you think you’re being overly dramatic? You’re being insulted, I think, because (according to others) you’re requesting evidence that is unnecessary, not simply by virtue of your request for evidence.
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Re: Probably going to get a dog soon

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Cirion Spellbinder wrote: Sun Mar 25, 2018 6:49 pm Are there long term studies proving the unhealthfulness of vegan dogs and healthfulness of meat based dog diets or do you think the only rational option is pure agnosticism for now? If the latter, don’t you think that weak evidence is better than simply waiting?
I'm not aware of any good studies that have evaluated the topic so that means you cannot make a conclusion either way. What you're going to do with weak evidence depends on what you're trying to prioritize, if the priority is the health of the dog then that would probably lead you to avoid a vegan diet. If the priority was to "reduce suffering" or something similar then perhaps you'd go the other direction.

But if the reasoning is the latter, I don't see how you'd be able to justify having a pet dog at all but that is a more detailed topic.
Cirion Spellbinder wrote: Sun Mar 25, 2018 6:49 pm You’re being insulted, I think, because (according to others) you’re requesting evidence that is unnecessary, not simply by virtue of your request for evidence.
Even if we assume this is true (and nobody has demonstrated such), how does making a request for something "unnecessary" legitimize insulting? That is obviously not what is going on here. And personally I find the insults amusing, human behavior can be funny at times. The reason I'm pointing it out is to argue that when you lash out like this you lose credibility. The general public is skeptical about vegan diets for people, they are much more skeptical when it comes to dogs. Now what do you think someone thinks when someone asks a question about research and then they get insulted for it? But its worse than that, people will also ignore you about other topics as well. While not a rational impulse, once someone thinks you lack credibility in one area they will extend it to others as well.
I'm here to exploit you schmucks into demonstrating the blatant anti-intellectualism in the vegan community and the reality of veganism. But I can do that with any user name.
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: Probably going to get a dog soon

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Lay Vegan wrote: Sun Mar 25, 2018 3:07 pm In some studies, the dog assessed had eaten vegan diets from six months to seven years, and cats had eaten vegan diets from six months to 6.5 years.
You forgot to move the goalposts man! Seven years isn't long enough!
Obviously we need multi-generational studies too, because of obscure epigentic changes that could manifest in third generation vegan dogs! There's no way to know this is safe and won't cause them to turn into dire wolves and murder everybody due to unsatiated multi-generational accumulated blood-lust.

Plus, don't forget, we have to wholesale reject any and all professional consensus when carnap doesn't agree with it. The professional opinion of non-vegan vets and non-vegan veterinary nutritionists and researchers is obviously tainted by a pro-vegan bias. Also survivorship bias in Indian dogs! Also, they don't know as much as carnap on the issue, so their ignorance discredits them too:

https://www.cliniciansbrief.com/article/vegetarian-diets (white overlay makes it hard to read, easier in source)
When formulated correctly, vegetarian diets can be fed successfully to dogs but may require more synthetic supplementation. Attempting to feed a vegetarian diet to a cat is not recommended unless under the guidance of a nutrition specialist (member of ACVN or ECVCN). Animals eating a vegetarian diet may also require more frequent screening by veterinarians to ensure essential nutrient needs are being met. Health risks of unbalanced diets, whether vegetarian or animal-based, can be life-threatening and it is important for veterinarians to collect a thorough diet history (food and supplements) at each visit to screen for sources of potential nutrient imbalances.

MARJORIE L. CHANDLER, DVM, MS, MANZCVSc, DACVN, DACVIM, DECVIM-CA, MRCVS, is small animal nutrition consultant and honorary internal medicine and clinical nutrition lecturer at Royal Dick School of Veterinary Studies in Edinburgh, Scotland. Dr. Chandler cochairs the WSAVA Global Nutrition Committee. Her interests include canine and feline clinical nutrition and internal medicine, particularly gastroenterology. She has lectured nationally and internationally and is enthusiastic about clinical nutrition education. Dr. Chandler earned her DVM at Colorado State University.

LISA P. WEETH, DVM, DACVN, is primary consultant at Weeth Nutrition Services. After receiving her degree in 2002 from University of California, Davis, she spent 2 years in private practice, after which she returned to the University of California, Davis, where she completed a 3-year residency in Small Animal Clinical Nutrition. She became a Diplomate of the American College of Veterinary Nutrition in 2007 and moved to New Jersey that same year to establish the first dedicated Clinical Nutrition Department in a private veterinary hospital. She established Weeth Nutrition Services in 2014.
(Along with countless other sources which echo the "Dogs yes if properly formulated, Cats no (or it's very difficult and don't do it without professional help) opinion)

Of course, we must also blindly accept mere speculation without a shred of material evidence from fields of softer science when carnap agrees with it:
carnap wrote: Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:50 pm Ridiculous? Its a widely head theory by Anthropologists. Perhaps, just perhaps there is a lot here you don't understand because you lack expertise in the field?
I lost respect for carnap after that. It's precisely the lesson he should learn when it comes to consensus in nutrition.

You can be a general skeptic of consensus, it's stupid but it's at least consistent.
But to cherry pick and favor one particular speculative hypothesis with no real evidence because it's merely popular in a field of soft science (apparently one he likes, I assume he studies anthropology which is why he thinks is so credible) over active professionals (like dietitians and veterinary nutritionists) who draw on hard science and a huge body of practical experience with real world effects is absolutely disingenuous.
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: Probably going to get a dog soon

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In terms of vegan diets for dogs:

The lack of some arbitrary point at which we've determined we have "enough" epidemiological studies on well fed vegan dogs does not mean you are putting your dog's health at risk.
Based on mechanistic data, we would expect a vegan diet for dogs to be superior (increasing lifespan due to lower levels of methionine, and other factors), we just don't have enough data in dogs to prove this is the case in practice. However, anecdotal accounts support this (vegetarian or vegan dogs seemingly over-represented among the longest lived dogs, despite being in an extreme minority).

In either case, lacking other evidence, the null hypothesis should be that it's at worst equal to meat containing diets, not inferior to them. The only evidence we have says that as long as it's nutritionally complete it's fine, and beyond that may be better.
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PsYcHo
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Re: Probably going to get a dog soon

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Cirion Spellbinder wrote: Sun Mar 25, 2018 4:32 pm We will be adopting and we will be trying to get the muttiest mutt to minimize genetic problems.
I'm staying out of the whole research debate "thing", which I think would be better suited for a separate thread since it is interesting, but an argument based on the op but not directly germane to it.

That's great you're going mutt! They are the best dogs, and much healthier.

Have you considered a training plan? Dogs love to learn, and teaching them "tricks" helps their overall well being. (If you've never seen the reaction of a dog who suddenly understands what is expected, and gets rewarded for it, you have never seen true joy! ;) ) I'm definitely a "positive reinforcement" type, and I assume you will be as well.
Alcohol may have been a factor.

Taxation is theft.
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: Probably going to get a dog soon

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PsYcHo wrote: Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:32 pm Have you considered a training plan? Dogs love to learn, and teaching them "tricks" helps their overall well being. (If you've never seen the reaction of a dog who suddenly understands what is expected, and gets rewarded for it, you have never seen true joy! ;) ) I'm definitely a "positive reinforcement" type, and I assume you will be as well.
Good point. Dogs, like humans, are purpose driven creatures. It would be even better if you could find a job for your dog to do that's helpful... some dogs like to fetch the paper. They need a lot of engagement. Most dogs, without a job, just become obsessed with protecting the house from birds and squirrels... or decide that destroying the furniture is an important job.
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Lay Vegan
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Re: Probably going to get a dog soon

Post by Lay Vegan »

brimstoneSalad wrote: Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:18 pm
Excellent comment brim. I couldn't have said it better.
brimstoneSalad wrote: Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:18 pm You can be a general skeptic of consensus, it's stupid but it's at least consistent.

But to cherry pick and favor one particular speculative hypothesis with no real evidence because it's merely popular in a field of soft science (apparently one he likes, I assume he studies anthropology which is why he thinks is so credible) over active professionals (like dietitians and veterinary nutritionists) who draw on hard science and a huge body of practical experience with real world effects is absolutely disingenuous.
What Carnap is doing isn't "skepticism" at all. At least, not scientific skepticism which is supposed to be rooted in critical thinking and reason. A true skeptic wouldn't hesitate to change his position based on new (and compelling) evidence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skeptical_movement

Carnap is demanding we provide evidence that isn’t necessary. And assuming that a lack of said evidence validates his preconception that vegan diets are unhealthy for dogs (an assumption which the current research doesn’t support) all the while maintaining this false image of the open-minded inquirer “All I’m asking for is simple research!”

I provided research, but he ignored it, then shifted the goalposts to demand for long-term studies of dogs “ideally since puppies” (because for some reason 6 months to 7 years isn’t long enough in a study).

His worst offense is his flippant dismissal of the scientific consensus of veterinarians on the matter, which has deemed reasonably balanced vegetarian diets to be healthy for dogs, a position based on an extensive body of research he can’t even be bothered to read.

Carnap either, 1; knows more than the experts do or 2; is a denialist


You can probably guess which is the most likely conclusion.
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: Probably going to get a dog soon

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Lay Vegan wrote: Mon Mar 26, 2018 5:18 pmI provided research, but he ignored it, then shifted the goalposts to demand for long-term studies of dogs “ideally since puppies” (because for some reason 6 months to 7 years isn’t long enough in a study).
It's also a bizarre request because it's not something that would be a realistic demand of any kibble: adult and puppy nutritional needs are different, and they typically have different food formulas specifically for them.

I don't even know if a vegan puppy kibble exists since that's pretty niche (if it doesn't, your best bet is just to avoid adopting a puppy... and it's best to adopt adult dogs anyway because they're less likely to be adopted by others). A vet would tell you not to give an adult formulated vegan pet food to a puppy.

The important thing is that dogs eat vegan for 90+ percent of their lives, the few months between weaning and adult food aren't so critical (as long as you're not using a premium high-meat food, a little byproduct for a few months isn't that big of a deal and not something I'd fuss at somebody about).

I assume Cirion is adopting a young adult dog, since that's mostly what's available (puppies get scooped up pretty fast unless it's an undesirable breed or has health problems).

If I were tasked with feeding a puppy, I'd look around but would probably end up having to consult with a veterinary nutritionist and have to make the food myself based on those recommendations. It wouldn't be cheap or easy, so I'd avoid small puppies unless/until I could find some good out-of-the-bag vegan puppy chow.
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