Probably going to get a dog soon

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Cirion Spellbinder
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Probably going to get a dog soon

Post by Cirion Spellbinder »

I've been placed in charge of its diet per my request of my family, so, where should I start with vegan dog nutrition? I know UV has a video on vegan cat nutrition, and I'm otherwise not sure where to start.

Furthermore, what other things should I know about dog ownership and how can I make my dog as presentable as possible to non-vegans or weird natural™ vegans?
carnap
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Re: Probably going to get a dog soon

Post by carnap »

Are there even studies that have evaluated the long-term impact of vegan dog foods on dog's health?
I'm here to exploit you schmucks into demonstrating the blatant anti-intellectualism in the vegan community and the reality of veganism. But I can do that with any user name.
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PsYcHo
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Re: Probably going to get a dog soon

Post by PsYcHo »

Be aware, that some dogs have food allergies that may make it difficult to feed them fully vegan. You are pretty good at research, so maybe see if you can have your potential new family member tested for allergies first.

As far as things to know about dog ownership, I don't know where to start. It's the closest thing to having a child without having a child. They all have differing personalities. Some dogs will listen to commands after puppy-hood. Some will listen when they feel like it. They may be obliging to all your "rules" or they may destroy your prized possessions because they are bored/anxious when you are not home. Certain dogs need a lot of room and constant exercise/stimulation or they will be miserable. Some prefer to lie around all day, and are pretty laid back. For health reasons, I recommend a mutt. "Pure" bred dogs are just "inbred" dogs. They die sooner and have a myriad of health problems.

What kind of dog are you getting/considering?
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Lay Vegan
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Re: Probably going to get a dog soon

Post by Lay Vegan »

On feeding pets vegan diets, I’m all for it so long as it is done properly (and under the guidance of a veterinarian).

I'd recommend PlantBased.Dog. http://www.plantbased.dog It's an excellent website that provides lots of scientific studies, peer-reviewed articles, and anecdotal accounts of dogs being fed on vegan diets. If you don't have the time to sit and search for individual studies on plant-based companion animals, I'd pay that website a visit.

I'd also recommend taking a look at this article from Vegan Outreach; https://veganoutreach.org/vegan-diets-dogs/
Or Vegepets; http://www.vegepets.info/index.html

Of course, I'd make sure to consult with your veterinarian before putting any animal under a strict vegan diet. They can test for genetic/health problems that could serve as obstacles in feeding your dog a vegan diet.

Just curious, what breed of dog are you adopting (I assume you're adopting)?
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Re: Probably going to get a dog soon

Post by carnap »

Lay Vegan wrote: Sun Mar 25, 2018 2:17 am I'd recommend PlantBased.Dog. http://www.plantbased.dog It's an excellent website that provides lots of scientific studies, peer-reviewed articles, and anecdotal accounts of dogs being fed on vegan diets.
That website doesn't appear to refer to a single study that has evaluated the long-term impact of vegan dog foods on dog's health.

If vegans what non-vegans to think they are doing something sensible with their dogs I think its important that they can refer to good research that demonstrates that the practice is health promoting.
I'm here to exploit you schmucks into demonstrating the blatant anti-intellectualism in the vegan community and the reality of veganism. But I can do that with any user name.
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: Probably going to get a dog soon

Post by brimstoneSalad »

It's professional and veterinary consensus that dogs can do fine on properly balanced vegetarian diets, and there are even mainstream vegetarian dog food formulations (essentially vegan, I think, except the D3 which shouldn't be expected to be any different from lichen based D3 and really shouldn't be a big issue).
And many more formulation that are almost completely vegetarian (with only traces of highly processed animal products).

Animals who have to go on these diets due to allergies have no alternatives; they don't suffer from survivorship bias even if it were reasonable to believe that a tiny trace of animal products is meaningful.

The important thing is that the pet food is professionally certified, and there are no significantly greater portion of cases of problems with the food than with any other kibble. Ideally, if using foods newer on the market I might hedge my bets and feed a mix, not because vegan pet food is questionable in itself but because a new brand might be.

Asking for some long term study on dogs is disingenuous; we have plenty of existing cases of healthy long lived vegan fed dogs, and we're familiar with their nutritional needs and potential health issues from improperly fortified meat-containing diets which have long been mostly grain.

A carnist demanding such studies before respecting a vegan's choice in a certified dog food under veterinary guidance is an asshole, and he or she will always be an asshole to vegans because it isn't a lack of evidence causing him or her to be an asshole, it's something else entirely.

It's like demanding a study on whether dumping 100 buckets of water on your head will actually make you wet -- we just don't know! :roll:

Vegans are perfectly in the right to feed their dogs nutritionally certified vegan diets with a vet's OK and we do not need the approval of every appeal to nature anti-vegan asshole on the planet to do it.
If people refuse to be even remotely reasonable or respectful, there's only so much we can do.

Some people literally are out to get vegans, and I think that's transparent to those who are more sympathetic.
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Re: Probably going to get a dog soon

Post by Lay Vegan »

carnap wrote: Sun Mar 25, 2018 1:03 pm That website doesn't appear to refer to a single study that has evaluated the long-term impact of vegan dog foods on dog's health.
It doesn’t appear to have any studies on the long-term health of vegetarian animals or you haven’t bothered searching for any?

For example, this study referenced on their database reviews recent evidence on the nutritional adequacy of vegetarian pets. The researchers also reviewed several separate studies on the health status of vegetarian companion animals. In some studies, the dog assessed had eaten vegan diets from six months to seven years, and cats had eaten vegan diets from six months to 6.5 years.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5035952/

http://www.vetmeduni.ac.at/hochschulschriften/diplomarbeiten/AC12256171.pdf

(A few others are referenced on the site).

carnap wrote: Sun Mar 25, 2018 1:03 pm If vegans what non-vegans to think they are doing something sensible with their dogs I think its important that they can refer to good research that demonstrates that the practice is health promoting.
This is assuming they know how to read and understand the research (hint; they likely don’t).

It would be more important for them to proceed under the guidance of a trained professional (their veterinarian) and to select vegan pet foods that meet AAFCO guidelines.
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Re: Probably going to get a dog soon

Post by carnap »

Lay Vegan wrote: Sun Mar 25, 2018 3:07 pm For example, this study referenced on their database reviews recent evidence on the nutritional adequacy of vegetarian pets. The researchers also reviewed several separate studies on the health status of vegetarian companion animals. In some studies, the dog assessed had eaten vegan diets from six months to seven years, and cats had eaten vegan diets from six months to 6.5 years.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5035952/
This is an overview of a handful of studies none of which evaluated the long-term impact of vegetarian (or vegan) diets on dog's health. In the study you're referring to a small number of animals was looked at and the mean length the animals were on the diet was around 2 years.

To show that vegan foods are appropriate for dogs you need to track health outcomes of dogs overtime at all stages not just show that a handful of animals haven't dropped dead from the diet. This is what I'm asking about, a study that has actually looked at health outcomes over time on dogs that have been given vegan diets long term (ideally since puppies). Do you know of such a study? I've yet to see one.

Lay Vegan wrote: Sun Mar 25, 2018 3:07 pm This is assuming they know how to read and understand the research (hint; they likely don’t).
I find this comment rather amusing....so its only the tiny fraction of biologists, vets, etc that are vegan that can understand research? Do you think comments like this make your position more or less credible?
I'm here to exploit you schmucks into demonstrating the blatant anti-intellectualism in the vegan community and the reality of veganism. But I can do that with any user name.
carnap
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Re: Probably going to get a dog soon

Post by carnap »

brimstoneSalad wrote: Sun Mar 25, 2018 2:34 pm It's professional and veterinary consensus that dogs can do fine on properly balanced vegetarian diets, and there are even mainstream vegetarian dog food formulations (essentially vegan, I think, except the D3 which shouldn't be expected to be any different from lichen based D3 and really shouldn't be a big issue).
Can you provide any evidence that there is such a consensus? How exactly do scientists arrive at a consensus without research?
brimstoneSalad wrote: Sun Mar 25, 2018 2:34 pm Asking for some long term study on dogs is disingenuous; we have plenty of existing cases of healthy long lived vegan fed dogs, and we're familiar with their nutritional needs and potential health issues from improperly fortified meat-containing diets which have long been mostly grain.
You think its disingenuous to ask for research? Honestly....I'm not sure how to respond to that. Obviously that makes no sense from a scientific perspective. You cannot determine the overall health impact of vegan diets on dogs by looking at a handful of "case studies".

brimstoneSalad wrote: Sun Mar 25, 2018 2:34 pm It's like demanding a study on whether dumping 100 buckets of water on your head will actually make you wet -- we just don't know! :roll:
No...its absolutely nothing like that whatsoever.

As with Lay Vegan, I do find the insulting tone of your comments funny. If simple questions about research elicit such responses....not only does it reflect poorly on the individual but you'll entirely lose credibility to the vast majority of society who isn't vegan.
I'm here to exploit you schmucks into demonstrating the blatant anti-intellectualism in the vegan community and the reality of veganism. But I can do that with any user name.
Cirion Spellbinder
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Re: Probably going to get a dog soon

Post by Cirion Spellbinder »

carnap wrote: Sun Mar 25, 2018 4:12 pmYou think its disingenuous to ask for research?
I have to agree. Even if the need for long term studies is fallacious, Hanlon’s razor adequately explains the request.
You cannot determine the overall health impact of vegan diets on dogs by looking at a handful of "case studies".
Why?
brimstoneSalad wrote: Sun Mar 25, 2018 2:34 pm It's like demanding a study on whether dumping 100 buckets of water on your head will actually make you wet -- we just don't know! :roll:
No...its absolutely nothing like that whatsoever.
Again, why? Don’t you think it’s important to justify such a claim?
As with Lay Vegan, I do find the insulting tone of your comments funny. If simple questions about research elicit such responses....not only does it reflect poorly on the individual but you'll entirely lose credibility to the vast majority of society who isn't vegan.
Well I’m glad you’ve found a way to feel better than the people you think feel better than you.
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