Having your own farm animals and bees

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Cirion Spellbinder
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Re: Having your own farm animals and bees

Post by Cirion Spellbinder »

Lay Vegan wrote:On eating animal corpses, I'm not morally concerned with that, because corpses are not sentient and have no interests. It probably wouldn't be a healthy or safe solution though.
So I thought this too, but now I'm not sure.

How do we know that animals don't have some notion of other organisms eating and are able to specifically prefer not to be eaten, distinct from simply not wanting to be killed? They would also require a similar notion of body and lack an understanding of their own corpse as distinct from their living body.

Obviously that is a lot of assumptions, so we can discredit it based on those grounds, but it seems very plausible to me.
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Lay Vegan
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Re: Having your own farm animals and bees

Post by Lay Vegan »

Cirion Spellbinder wrote: Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:22 pm So I thought this too, but now I'm not sure.

How do we know that animals don't have some notion of other organisms eating and are able to specifically prefer not to be eaten, distinct from simply not wanting to be killed?

They would also require a similar notion of body and lack an understanding of their own corpse as distinct from their living body.
Not sure what you mean here. Are you asking how we know nonhuman animals don't have some kind of aversion to the action of eating animals? I don't have an answer to this question. Animals can't exactly perfectly communicate or vocalize their perceptions to us.

Many animals do exhibit rather odd, inexplicable behavior regarding the death of "relatives." Biologist Joyce Poole has observed elephants remaining with corpses for days on end, sometimes even attempting to revive it. Other elephants have been observed moving on and returning to the corpse and "sitting vigil" mutable times.

Chimps, gorillas, and dogs have also been observed acting unusually around death, fondling the corpse, remaining near it for extended periods of time, and overall drastic change of behavior. Chimp mothers are known to carry deceased infants around on their backs for days or months.

https://www.wired.com/2011/04/what-death-means-to-primates/

Is this grief? Their behavior (albeit "simplistic") is similar to human behavior and seems to suggest some kind of grasp of mortality and sadness for the death of "relatives."

To relate this to your question, I don't know how an animal would react it were to witness one eating another animal's corpse. Obviously if a calf's mother dies and I begin dragging the mother's corpse away, they may still recognize it as its mother.

It's highly unlikely that animals associate products, like ground beef, fried chicken, and hamburgers with animals and grieve at the sight of humans consuming them.

I doubt animals have any meaningful understanding on the implications of eating other animals. It's more likely they just don't want to be killed.


Something tells me I'm misunderstanding your question. Apologies in advance :lol: Feel free to clarify
Cirion Spellbinder
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Re: Having your own farm animals and bees

Post by Cirion Spellbinder »

Lay Vegan wrote:Something tells me I'm misunderstanding your question. Apologies in advance :lol: Feel free to clarify
Hahaha, you very much did, but what you said was interesting anyways.

I think I can explain what I mean best socratically, so: do you agree that we should respect the interests of the dead because goodness is fulfilling interests and interests can be known post mortem?
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Lay Vegan
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Re: Having your own farm animals and bees

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Cirion Spellbinder wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:38 am do you agree that we should respect the interests of the dead because goodness is fulfilling interests and interests can be known post mortem?
This is very interesting question. :idea:

I've never doubted that individuals may have some interests that extend beyond their death, that is, interests that should still be regarded, at least to some degree. This would entail respecting the wishes that individual had on the affairs of his corpse after death.

Though these so-called "posthumous interests" are nowhere near of equal concern to the interests of living sentient beings. Dead humans are not aware of whether not their extended interests are being served or not. In this sense her well-being cannot be positive or negatively affected because she is no longer a "being." This is why I cannot consider posthumous interests equal to the interests of currently living sentient beings.

Any extended interests to regard after one's death should be regarded, but only insofar as it isn't infringing on the well-being of living beings.

I'm not sure how any of this would apply to nonhuman animals, as it's difficult (maybe impossible) to gage what, if any, extended interests they have postmortem.

I do agree that if it is good to respect the interests of sentient beings, and that if some individuals have extended interests proceeding death, then we should to some extent regard the interests of those "individuals."

Again, not sure if this would apply to animals, as they can't communicate said interests. It's not very likely they think about what will happen to their bodies after death.
Last edited by Lay Vegan on Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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NonZeroSum
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Re: Having your own farm animals and bees

Post by NonZeroSum »

Article on the wiki coming along well:
http://philosophicalvegan.com/wiki/index.php/Honey

I imagine there's a way can be done well, like putting up bat boxes in trees, clearing scrub and coppicing trees to allow for more dense healthy habitat.

Some interesting reading:
https://oxnatbees.wordpress.com/about-low-intervention-beekeeping/
https://www.naturalbeekeepingtrust.org/tree-beekeeping
https://beekindhives.uk/the-log-hive/
https://beekindhives.uk/2017/11/20/swarm/
https://beekindhives.uk/2017/11/20/bait-hives/

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Cirion Spellbinder
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Re: Having your own farm animals and bees

Post by Cirion Spellbinder »

Lay Vegan wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:45 pmDead humans are not aware of whether not their extended interests are being served or not. In this sense her well-being cannot be positive or negatively affected because she is no longer a "being." This is why I cannot consider posthumous interests equal to the interests of currently living sentient beings.
Given those premises, in a closed system, would you be willing to regard killing someone (that wants to live) instantly as amoral since there is no one "positively" or "negatively" affected?

Edit: If you like this topic consider posting on this thread: http://philosophicalvegan.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3861
It relies on a very similar idea to what I am trying to relate now
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Lay Vegan
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Re: Having your own farm animals and bees

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Cirion Spellbinder wrote: Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:32 pm Given those premises, in a closed system, would you be willing to regard killing someone (that wants to live) instantly as amoral since there is no one "positively" or "negatively" affected?
*Most people* have ability to experience harm and wellbeing up until our death. In this scenario, the person negatively affected is the one who is killed. By ending his life (without good reason) you are disregarding his interests and desire to live (and not to be harmed) and cutting short his potential to experience well-being. The one negatively affected is the one who's life has ended. Obviously, after the person has died he can no longer be benefitted or harmed, but he may "extended interests" in regard to the affairs of his corpse.
Cirion Spellbinder
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Re: Having your own farm animals and bees

Post by Cirion Spellbinder »

Lay Vegan wrote: Sun Mar 25, 2018 1:40 amBy ending his life (without good reason) you are disregarding his interests and desire to live (and not to be harmed) and cutting short his potential to experience well-being.
Which is it, interests or well-being that we value as the good? Or is it interests to the end of well-being or well-being to the end of interests that we are considering?
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