Having your own farm animals and bees

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rarity
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Having your own farm animals and bees

Post by rarity »

So here is something I often hear from people. They're saying that they have their own farm animals and a lot of them are rescued animals but they will still take the eggs from the chicken to eat them and take the honey from bees so they don't become lazy and keep pollinate their garden. They also said that they will eat animals only if they ever die of old age. Is there anything wrong with that?
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Lay Vegan
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Re: Having your own farm animals and bees

Post by Lay Vegan »

Great question.

I don't have a problem with people eating animal products as long as no suffering was caused. This includes rejected meat and dairy products going to waste and eggs abandoned by "backyard hens" (many sanctuary farmers feed the eggs to the other animals). The difficulty lies in demonstrating that no suffering (or as little suffering as practicable) entailed.


I'm quite skeptical of the idea that animals can be humanely raised for the purpose of acquiring their eggs, milk, and flesh, because often the success of the business or product is prioritized over the animal's welfare. And slaughter itself is not humane (except in a few rare instances, usually to avoid prolonged agonizing suffering). It probably wouldn't be costly or practicable to raise cows solely for milk, as with other female mammals, they only lactate post-pregnacy. I doubt we could find a completely humane and affordable way to artificially inseminate female mammals and keep them in a perpetual state of postpartum delivery, only to acquire their milk.


Honey is also a bit complicated. I'm not too knowledgable on the bee-farming process. Honey bee farmers allegedly clip the wings of the queen bee to prevent her from escaping the hive, and whole hives are sometimes destroyed with cyanide gas before winter. https://www.peta.org/about-peta/faq/whats-wrong-with-eating-honey/ I don't know if these are standard practices, so if there are any beekeepers on the forum, I'd like to hear your input.

Assuming that you don't engage in the above practices, yet periodically take their honey, I wouldn't necessarily object unless there is obvious evidence that the bees are harmed. Again, the problem is establishing that little suffering was caused, so it may be best to avoid them altogether, if possible.


On eating animal corpses, I'm not morally concerned with that, because corpses are not sentient and have no interests. It probably wouldn't be a healthy or safe solution though.

An argument could be made that by promoting a culture that sometimes "permits" people to eat animal products in select circumstances, this could tempt people to purchase conventionally produced meat, dairy, eggs etc. and result in recidivism (though I would want to see evidence of that).
Last edited by Lay Vegan on Sun Mar 18, 2018 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: Having your own farm animals and bees

Post by brimstoneSalad »

Lay Vegan's response above is good.

I would also say that bees don't get lazy... they'll keep foraging and storing honey until it spills over, then they'll collect it and build more honeycomb to store it in or fill empty cells. They don't stop until it gets too cold.
If too much honey builds up and they run out of room to raise their young, they'll "swarm" and potentially move somewhere else. That can be a bad thing for the farmer/gardener since the bees might not return much to pollinate your plants. As long as there is appropriate room for the hive, though, that's not really a problem you're likely to encounter.

Bumblebees are probably better pollinators, since they don't have issues like these and they're more reliable in general.
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Re: Having your own farm animals and bees

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Bees will get lazy if you don't take their honey? Think this is the first time I've heard that. Personally I don't see much issue with raising animals for personal use assuming they are well treated....but I'm not vegan.

Lay Vegan wrote: Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:13 pm The difficulty lies in demonstrating that no suffering (or as little suffering as practicable) entailed.
Why would "no suffering" be a meaningful benchmark? No animal (farm, pet or wild) lives a life with "no suffering", such a thing would be next to impossible and rather artificial.
Lay Vegan wrote: Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:13 pm I'm quite skeptical of the idea that animals can be humanely raised for the purpose of acquiring their eggs, milk, and flesh, because often the success of the business or product is prioritized over the animal's welfare. And slaughter itself is not humane (except in a few rare instances, usually to avoid prolonged agonizing suffering).
Regulations can prioritize animal welfare, if all businesses have to adhere to some standard than nobody is at a competitive disadvantage for doing so. But the OP seems to be talking about the raising of animals in a non-business environment, many people raise their own hens and animals for food.


The vegan arguments against honey are highly problematic, they are based on really big assumptions on insect cognition and even if you took them seriously the position is wildly inconsistent. Bees are cultivated and exploited to produce a variety of fruit and nut crops that are considered "vegan".
I'm here to exploit you schmucks into demonstrating the blatant anti-intellectualism in the vegan community and the reality of veganism. But I can do that with any user name.
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Re: Having your own farm animals and bees

Post by rarity »

Lay Vegan wrote: Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:13 pm I'm quite skeptical of the idea that animals can be humanely raised for the purpose of acquiring their eggs, milk, and flesh, because often the success of the business or product is prioritized over the animal's welfare.
I didn't mean it as a business, only for yourself.
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Re: Having your own farm animals and bees

Post by Lay Vegan »

carnap wrote: Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:18 pm Why would "no suffering" be a meaningful benchmark? No animal (farm, pet or wild) lives a life with "no suffering", such a thing would be next to impossible and rather artificial.
Eggs can be obtained sans suffering, by selecting the ones rejected by backyard hens. Milk and honey could (theoretically) also be acquired without suffering. If suffering is inevitable or unavoidable, then go with whatever entails the least amount of harm possible.
carnap wrote: Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:18 pm Regulations can prioritize animal welfare, if all businesses have to adhere to some standard than nobody is at a competitive disadvantage for doing so.
The USDA does a poor job of regulating animal welfare, largely due to underfunding and lax regulations. Just recently, Trump’s USDA has decided to withdraw their Organic Livestock and Poultry Practices Rule (OLPP). This set of regulations was set to monitor how organic producers treat their livestock and poultry. Without these laws present (and properly enforced) there's no guarantee that animals are treated humanely.
carnap wrote: Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:18 pm But the OP seems to be talking about the raising of animals in a non-business environment, many people raise their own hens and animals for food.
I'd support raising one's own animals as a more ethical alternative to purchasing them from large corporations.
carnap wrote: Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:18 pm The vegan arguments against honey are highly problematic, they are based on really big assumptions on insect cognition and even if you took them seriously the position is wildly inconsistent. Bees are cultivated and exploited to produce a variety of fruit and nut crops that are considered "vegan".
There doesn't appear to be a clear answer on the sentience/consciousness of insects like bees. Bees do seem to be capable of associative learning and other cognitive learning styles.

http://www.hup.harvard.edu/index-maint.html?isbn=9780674418776&content=reviews
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/not-bad-science/inside-the-wonderful-world-of-bee-cognition-how-it-all-began/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22837045
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/02/170223142100.htm

In this study, researchers study shook bees in tubes and measured their agitated responses. They claim bees are capable of expecting bad outcomes and can exhibit a vertebrate-like emotional state. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3158593/

Of course, it is generally difficult recording neural activity and sensory experience in insects, which presents a limitation on studies of cognition. Until there is a clearer answer, I would treat bees as though they likely can suffer.
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Re: Having your own farm animals and bees

Post by Lay Vegan »

rarity wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:29 am I didn't mean it as a business, only for yourself.
Raising one's own animals for oneself is a much better alternative to purchasing them from large corporations. I still wouldn't agree that slaughtering them for their meat is humane or compassionate, no matter who is pulling the knife (or bolt gun).
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Re: Having your own farm animals and bees

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Lay Vegan wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:50 am Eggs can be obtained sans suffering, by selecting the ones rejected by backyard hens. Milk and honey could (theoretically) also be acquired without suffering. If suffering is inevitable or unavoidable, then go with whatever entails the least amount of harm possible.
The passing of the eggs themselves causes some pain but its also about their entire life. All animals suffer to some degree so "no suffering" is creating a benchmark that cannot be achieved in principle.
Lay Vegan wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:50 am The USDA does a poor job of regulating animal welfare, largely due to underfunding and lax regulations....
What does and doesn't happen in the US is not germane to the function of regulations in business.
Lay Vegan wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:50 am There doesn't appear to be a clear answer on the sentience/consciousness of insects like bees. Bees do seem to be capable of associative learning and other cognitive learning styles.
A crude ability to learn says little about consciousness, for a few dollars you can make a robot that is capable of associative learning. Because bees have to remember food sources and how to get them they do need some ability to learn. But their behavior is almost entirely innate.

But, as I said, even if you assume that bees are consciousness on some level you're still left with a major issue. Bees are cultivated and exploited throughout the agricultural industry so why single out honey? Almonds, oranges, apples, various berries, etc all utilize cultivated bees that are treated no better than bees utilized for honey (they are often one and the same). In the US typically the colonies are raised in the mid-west and then trucked thousands of miles to California to pollinate. After the growing season they colon is often culled down.

But the vegan position is even stranger than that, growing plant crops involves the mass killing of huge numbers of insects. They are killed with insecticides, they are killed when harvested, they are killed when processed and so on. What reason is there to believe that honey harms more insects than the cultivation and production of other sweeteners? Or is it just the bees are unique cognitively among insects? Not sure why that would be.
I'm here to exploit you schmucks into demonstrating the blatant anti-intellectualism in the vegan community and the reality of veganism. But I can do that with any user name.
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Re: Having your own farm animals and bees

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carnap wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:59 am The passing of the eggs themselves causes some pain but its also about their entire life. All animals suffer to some degree so "no suffering" is creating a benchmark that cannot be achieved in principle.
I am discussing human-induced suffering. By adopting backyard hens and collecting their rejected eggs, there is no suffering (or very little suffering) caused because of the acquisition of her eggs.
carnap wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:59 am What does and doesn't happen in the US is not germane to the function of regulations in business.
While *some* businesses may take it upon themselves to self-police to an extent, it's clear that industry standard practices (like teeth removal and tail docking without anesthetics) are cruel and inhumane, which highlights the need for welfare laws to be enforced, even as poorly as they are enforced.
carnap wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:59 am A crude ability to learn says little about consciousness, for a few dollars you can make a robot that is capable of associative learning. Because bees have to remember food sources and how to get them they do need some ability to learn.
Consciousness is still too loosely defined to determine whether or not insects have some form of consciousness, though it is likely that insects do have a form of consciousness. There are several indicators, like associative learning and abstract relation, a centralized nervous system, and a brain.

carnap wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:59 am But their behavior is almost entirely innate.
On the contrary, after foraging, worker bees have been observed returning to the hive and "dancing" to point out where sources of food lies. This is not innate, but rather learned behavior. This complex behavior, dubbed the "waggle dance" is an impressive motor pattern that signals both direction and distance, indicating that bees have some kind of spacial awareness.
carnap wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:59 am https://colala.bcs.rochester.edu/people/JennaRegister/bees.pdf
carnap wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:59 am Bees are cultivated and exploited throughout the agricultural industry so why single out honey?
Because the OP asked specifically about honey, and whether it can be obtained ethically.

Due to mass production, nearly all plants depend on mass bee-pollination. If the demand were lower and more consistent, there would be less of a problem. It's not almond production that's a problem, it's mass almond production. Some vegans alleviate this issue by growing their own almonds. However, some of us (as you can imagine) do not have the resources to grow almond trees.

Should vegans impractically follow veganism to a tee, we would be forced to forfeit hundreds of foods which depend on bee pollination, namely; apples, mangos, kiwi fruit, plums, peaches, nectarines, guava, pomegranates, pears, strawberries, cashews, apricots, avocados, lima beans, kidney beans, green beans, cherries, coffee, flax, lemons, figs, fennel, limes, carrots, chestnut, coconut, tangerines, beets, broccoli, cauliflower, cabbage, brussel sprouts, bok choy, turnips, chili peppers, bell peppers, papaya, safflower, sesame,raspberries, elderberries, blackberries, clover, tamarind, cocoa, black Eyed Peas, vanilla,cranberries, tomatoes, and grapes.

Unlike honey, avoiding a wide range of fruits and vegetables can have dire consequences on our health. Avoiding honey is entirely doable, as it's not very nutritious or necessary for relatively good health, and it is basically a milder version of refined sugars. As stated before, if as little suffering as possible was caused in raising one's bees, I'd have no problem with someone eating their honey.

carnap wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:59 am But the vegan position is even stranger than that, growing plant crops involves the mass killing of huge numbers of insects. They are killed with insecticides, they are killed when harvested, they are killed when processed and so on.
This a perfect reason why I am generally against organic farming and in support of GM technology. Genetically engineering resistance in crops could serve as more efficient than spraying toxic chemicals over waves of plants, which can harm humans and kill millions of insects. Unfortunately, some insect death is inevitable in mass production.

More importantly, even if bees were unequivocally sentient, this would in no way justify the animal ag industry's harms toward its "higher" animals like pigs, chickens and cows, who are capable of a far greater range of suffering and well-being than bees are. Pointing out that vegans purchase fruits and veggies pollinated by "slave bees" does not justify the meat and dairy industry. Especially given the scientific consensus regarding their sentience. http://fcmconference.org/img/CambridgeDeclarationOnConsciousness.pdf
carnap wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:59 am Or is it just the bees are unique cognitively among insects? Not sure why that would be.
There are great variations in levels of consciousness and sentience amongst insects. The presence of natural opiates, nociceptive pain, and complex learned behavior are prevalent in select groups of insects, while absent altogether in others. It's the complex learned behavior in bees (along with a centralized nervous systems and brain) that suggests they likely have some form of sensory experience.
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Re: Having your own farm animals and bees

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Lay Vegan wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:07 pm While *some* businesses may take it upon themselves to self-police to an extent, it's clear that industry standard practices (like teeth removal and tail docking without anesthetics) are cruel and inhumane, which highlights the need for welfare laws to be enforced, even as poorly as they are enforced.
I'm not discussing self-policing or current practices but instead the function of regulations. With regulations no business is at a competitive disadvantage for following them and if the penalties for violations are high enough that will remove incentives to cheat.

Lay Vegan wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:07 pm Consciousness is still too loosely defined to determine whether or not insects have some form of consciousness, though it is likely that insects do have a form of consciousness. There are several indicators, like associative learning and abstract relation, a centralized nervous system, and a brain.
Consciousness if poorly understood but its not even clear what "a form of consciousness" means. Is there more than one form?

Those aren't indicators, associative learning and centralization (a brain is implied by centralization) don't imply consciousness. That is, you can explain both without appealing to consciousness.

Lay Vegan wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:07 pm On the contrary, after foraging, worker bees have been observed returning to the hive and "dancing" to point out where sources of food lies. This is not innate, but rather learned behavior. This complex behavior, dubbed the "waggle dance" is an impressive motor pattern that signals both direction and distance, indicating that bees have some kind of spacial awareness.
I'm not sure why you think its a learned behavior, the complexity of a behavior has nothing to do with whether its innate or not. The wiggle dance is an entirely innate behavior, bees are "born" (e.g., exit pupal state) with the ability to do it. Bees learn very little and their life-span is too short (usually a few months) for learning to play a significant role in their behavior. Bees have to remember and learn some basic things related to the location of food, that's it. Their dance is just a complex form of communication, but its a form of communication that has a very narrow scope.

The complex behavior of bees and other eusocial insects is very interesting, but its a case of emergent properties not actual intelligence.

Lay Vegan wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:07 pm Due to mass production, nearly all plants depend on mass bee-pollination. If the demand were lower and more consistent, there would be less of a problem. It's not almond production that's a problem, it's mass almond production.
That isn't true, must plants don't depend on cultivated bees because you're not eating the fruit or seed or because they don't require pollination by bees in the first place. Its just select fruits and nuts that required cultivated bees.

Lay Vegan wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:07 pm Unlike honey, avoiding a wide range of fruits and vegetables can have dire consequences on our health. Avoiding honey is entirely doable, as it's not very nutritious or necessary for relatively good health, and it is basically a milder version of refined sugars. As stated before, if as little suffering as possible was caused in raising one's bees, I'd have no problem with someone eating their honey.
As above, what you're saying here is grossly inaccurate and many of the things you have in your list don't even require pollination. For example, you harvest broccoli and similar vegetables before they even flower.

Like honey, one could avoid the fruits and nuts that utilize cultivated bees to produce. But even if we assume all plants require similar exploitation of bees you still have an issue. Why avoid honey if the alternatives similarly exploit bees? That would be like telling people to avoid cows but to eat pigs instead.

Lay Vegan wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:07 pm Pointing out that vegans purchase fruits and veggies pollinated by "slave bees" does not justify the meat and dairy industry.
When did I suggest such a thing? My claim was that the vegan position on honey was inconsistent and largely nonsensical.

Lay Vegan wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:07 pm There are great variations in levels of consciousness and sentience amongst insects.
This comment is pure speculation and its not even clear what it would mean, what is a "level of consciousness"?
I'm here to exploit you schmucks into demonstrating the blatant anti-intellectualism in the vegan community and the reality of veganism. But I can do that with any user name.
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