"The vegan diet will kill me because heme iron!!!" said a meat eater

Vegan message board for support on vegan related issues and questions.
Topics include philosophy, activism, effective altruism, plant-based nutrition, and diet advice/discussion whether high carb, low carb (eco atkins/vegan keto) or anything in between.
Meat eater vs. Vegan debate welcome, but please keep it within debate topics.
User avatar
rarity
Newbie
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:23 am
Diet: Vegan

"The vegan diet will kill me because heme iron!!!" said a meat eater

Post by rarity »

So here we go another meat eater trying to debate with me about why the vegan diet will kill them and somehow will kill me too. :lol:

Everytime I come up with something she's claiming she has a new disease or something that make her forced to eat meat which I don't think she really has those as when she is out of argument she start claiming she has something that give her no choice to consume animal products. :|

So here is the thing. I would like to know about that heme iron thing. Is it true that some people can't absorb non-heme iron at all? If it is then is it true that there is no way they can go vegan so they have no choice to eat meat?
User avatar
PsYcHo
Master of the Forum
Posts: 1166
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:24 pm
Diet: Pescetarian

Re: "The vegan diet will kill me because heme iron!!!" said a meat eater

Post by PsYcHo »

rarity wrote: Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:54 pm I would like to know about that heme iron thing.
I can be a lazy researcher, since I only do it for fun, but this looks like a good starting place, especially if you look into the actual research. https://www.veganmotivation.com/vegan-iron-deficiency-non-heme/

But before you use my link for responding to your friend, do more research on the topic. I'm just giving you a starting point to maybe learn more about the subject.
Alcohol may have been a factor.

Taxation is theft.
User avatar
brimstoneSalad
neither stone nor salad
Posts: 10273
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 9:20 am
Diet: Vegan

Re: "The vegan diet will kill me because heme iron!!!" said a meat eater

Post by brimstoneSalad »

rarity wrote: Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:54 pm Is it true that some people can't absorb non-heme iron at all?
DMT1 is the protein that transports iron. Very rare recessive mutations make people unable to properly absorb or metabolize iron.

Your friend would know if he had the mutation; it's a very serious medical condition diagnosed in infancy.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19786204

It's likely that heme iron is ALSO absorbed largely by this route (being broken down first) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2725368/#__sec6title

The treatment for a mutation affecting DMT1 is NOT to eat a bunch of meat. :lol:
rarity wrote: Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:54 pmIf it is then is it true that there is no way they can go vegan so they have no choice to eat meat?
I don't believe such a condition exists where people need to eat heme-iron, and can absorb it and have otherwise good health, but can't absorb non-heme iron.
If you can't absorb non-heme iron, you're missing DMT1 and you have MUCH more serious problems and probably can't absorb heme iron properly either. If not treated you will shortly die from iron overload in your liver and severe anemia (which, again, is not a prescription for a meat-based diet).

But let's step into a fantasy world and pretend that these "vampires" existed. There are vegan heme iron sources, so no. They'd just need a supplement, or need to eat some impossible burgers.
User avatar
brimstoneSalad
neither stone nor salad
Posts: 10273
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 9:20 am
Diet: Vegan

Re: "The vegan diet will kill me because heme iron!!!" said a meat eater

Post by brimstoneSalad »

Updated the Wiki with some info on iron, and heme:

http://philosophicalvegan.com/wiki/index.php/Nutrients_of_Concern#Iron
carnap
Anti-Vegan Troll
Posts: 414
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:54 pm

Re: "The vegan diet will kill me because heme iron!!!" said a meat eater

Post by carnap »

How well people absorb iron seems to be genetically variable, where some people absorb it very well and will even have excessive iron if they eat foods like red meat where some people seem to have trouble.

Heme-iron has much higher bio-availability than non-heme iron, but the thing about meat is that it actually increases the absorption of all iron due to compounds found in the meat. Most meats are around 50% heme and 50% non-heme iron.
I'm here to exploit you schmucks into demonstrating the blatant anti-intellectualism in the vegan community and the reality of veganism. But I can do that with any user name.
User avatar
brimstoneSalad
neither stone nor salad
Posts: 10273
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 9:20 am
Diet: Vegan

Re: "The vegan diet will kill me because heme iron!!!" said a meat eater

Post by brimstoneSalad »

carnap wrote: Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:51 pm How well people absorb iron seems to be genetically variable, where some people absorb it very well and will even have excessive iron if they eat foods like red meat where some people seem to have trouble.
Hemochromatosis is a genetic disorder, not really part of normal genetic variation. It's not because they absorb it well, but because they are unable to downregulate properly. Pretty much anybody can absorb iron so "well" if stores are low and absorption is upregulated.

The majority of variability seems to come from variable iron requirements, primarily due to menstruation. Women who have very heavy periods need more iron, this doesn't seem to have anything to do with them absorbing it poorly.

It's true that people with weak stomach acid may have more trouble, but achlorhydria causes a broad array of digestive problems, certainly not limited to iron, and the effects aren't limited to vegans (it doesn't help people digest meat to have insufficient stomach acid).
carnap wrote: Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:51 pmHeme-iron has much higher bio-availability than non-heme iron, but the thing about meat is that it actually increases the absorption of all iron due to compounds found in the meat.
Protein improves iron absorption. This is also true of plant based proteins, particularly those high in lysine.
But vitamin C seems to do an even better job of it, and meat isn't very high in that.

It's not that helpful if you can't digest anything, though. People with low stomach acid have bigger problems, and those with normal levels should have no issue with a well balanced vegan diet. The problem comes when we're dealing with people in the developing world who don't have access to high quality food or adequate calories (famine being the greatest cause of iron deficiency).
carnap
Anti-Vegan Troll
Posts: 414
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:54 pm

Re: "The vegan diet will kill me because heme iron!!!" said a meat eater

Post by carnap »

brimstoneSalad wrote: Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:25 pm Hemochromatosis is a genetic disorder, not really part of normal genetic variation. It's not because they absorb it well, but because they are unable to downregulate properly. Pretty much anybody can absorb iron so "well" if stores are low and absorption is upregulated.
Inherited hemochromatosis is a genetic disorder but that is not the only cause of high iron levels. And many genes exist on a spectrum, that is, its not something that is either "off/on" but related to the number of copies, epigenetic changes that change their expression, etc.

Some people seem to have more trouble absorbing iron than others, but iron absorption is complex and hinges on other components of the diet and that is especially true of heme-iron. Whole plant-foods often contain compounds that bind with iron that make it difficult to digest, meat on the other hand as components that enhance overall absorption.

There are many known gene variants that impact iron absorption/metabolism, for example:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2738707/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20738301

And this is an area that is pretty poorly understood, that is, we are just starting to understand how various gene variants impact our health based on our diet and other lifestyle factors. Generalized dietary recommendations exist due to the immaturity of nutritional science.

brimstoneSalad wrote: Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:25 pm Protein improves iron absorption. This is also true of plant based proteins, particularly those high in lysine.
But vitamin C seems to do an even better job of it, and meat isn't very high in that.
Plant proteins don't have the same impact and meat enhances the absorption of iron from other foods consumed with it not just the meat itself. That includes iron rich plant foods like legumes:

https://academic.oup.com/jn/article/136/11/2808/4664211

The difference isn't small either, it seems to at least double the absorption rates for non-heme iron consumed in the meal.

Vitamin C enhances absorption but not as well as meat.
I'm here to exploit you schmucks into demonstrating the blatant anti-intellectualism in the vegan community and the reality of veganism. But I can do that with any user name.
User avatar
brimstoneSalad
neither stone nor salad
Posts: 10273
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 9:20 am
Diet: Vegan

Re: "The vegan diet will kill me because heme iron!!!" said a meat eater

Post by brimstoneSalad »

carnap wrote: Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:07 pmAnd many genes exist on a spectrum, that is, its not something that is either "off/on" but related to the number of copies, epigenetic changes that change their expression, etc.
Sure, but no reason to believe that there are any significant numbers of extreme cases that would preclude a well planned vegan diet.
carnap wrote: Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:07 pmSome people seem to have more trouble absorbing iron than others, but iron absorption is complex and hinges on other components of the diet and that is especially true of heme-iron.
You mean of non-heme iron?
carnap wrote: Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:07 pmWhole plant-foods often contain compounds that bind with iron that make it difficult to digest, meat on the other hand as components that enhance overall absorption.
Depends on the plants; harder more wild species, absolutely. Human favorites tend to be lower in these compounds, and addition of vitamin C make them very good sources.
carnap wrote: Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:07 pm There are many known gene variants that impact iron absorption/metabolism, for example:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2738707/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20738301
The first is pretty speculative (any clinical examples?) and has to do with sequestration to prevent infection as far as I can tell and should not preclude non-heme sources as viable, the second has to do with internal regulation and results in a rare condition of iron-refractory anemia, which doesn't respond to oral iron.
https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/iron-refractory-iron-deficiency-anemia#genes

I don't think any of this fits a "can only get iron from heme sources" problem.
carnap wrote: Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:07 pmAnd this is an area that is pretty poorly understood, that is, we are just starting to understand how various gene variants impact our health based on our diet and other lifestyle factors. Generalized dietary recommendations exist due to the immaturity of nutritional science.
They also exist due to experimental evidence of adequacy. There's no reason to shun them on the basis that we don't have all of the information explaining the variance.

Small differences in ability to absorb iron are plausible, but outside of the clinically significant cases (which are rare) this isn't one of the things it makes sense to worry about.
What makes more sense to focus on is simple dietary inadequacy and variable levels of need based on blood loss.

Resolve those, and 99.9999% of the problems will be resolved, and the rest require professional medical intervention regardless of diet.
carnap wrote: Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:07 pmPlant proteins don't have the same impact and meat enhances the absorption of iron from other foods consumed with it not just the meat itself. That includes iron rich plant foods like legumes:

https://academic.oup.com/jn/article/136/11/2808/4664211
Isolated proteins from the meat did that. As the study explained in the discussion, it's likely due to competition with phytates.
In conclusion, our results confirm that the meat effect is due to the protein component of muscle tissue. Based on earlier studies discussed previously, the most likely explanation is that the partially digested peptides from muscle proteins bind iron via their cysteine and histidine residues to form complexes that are soluble and available for absorption. The meat effect is most apparent in inhibitory meals based on cereals and legumes, probably because the iron-peptide complexes prevent iron binding to phytate and phenolic compounds to form complexes that are unavailable for absorption.
The same would be expected for low-phytate plant proteins, like mock meats or perhaps fermented products.

Of course beans won't help you absorb more iron from beans.
Results from this study add further evidence to support the hypothesis that the meat factor is protein related. The enhancing effect on iron absorption of beef and chicken muscle as compared with egg albumin in the present study was similar to that reported earlier by Cook and Monsen (10) using the semisynthetic liquid formula meal. They reported a 200% increase in iron absorption with beef muscle and a 140% increase with chicken muscle. In the present study, we found a 180% increase with beef muscle and a 100% increase with chicken muscle. The 2 isolated protein fractions from beef muscle containing 94 and 98% of protein enhanced iron absorption relative to egg albumin in a similar way to native beef muscle when all fractions were fed at an equivalent protein level of 15 g (Table 3; Fig. 1), suggesting that beef muscle contains no other major components influencing iron absorption other than beef protein. The highest protein content (98%) was with the heme-free fraction and no differences were found in absorption with other fractions, suggesting that heme or its degradation products play no role in the enhancing effect of beef muscle tissue on nonheme iron absorption.
The chicken results were a little weird, but they didn't prove anything was happening beyond protein.
carnap wrote: Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:07 pm The difference isn't small either, it seems to at least double the absorption rates for non-heme iron consumed in the meal.

Vitamin C enhances absorption but not as well as meat.
Double isn't that much. Upon what basis do you believe this is not something vitamin C is capable of?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/835510
This study showed up to about ten times the absorption in a meal with a relatively large dose of vitamin C. The estimations for the average effect with modest supplementation were smaller, but more than what meat does:
If taken only with breakfast, this level of supplementation would produce a nearly 2-fold increase in the amount of iron absorbed daily. If taken in divided doses with each mean, the increase in iron absorption would be more than 3-fold.
carnap
Anti-Vegan Troll
Posts: 414
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:54 pm

Re: "The vegan diet will kill me because heme iron!!!" said a meat eater

Post by carnap »

brimstoneSalad wrote: Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:49 pm Sure, but no reason to believe that there are any significant numbers of extreme cases that would preclude a well planned vegan diet.
But there is a reason to believe, namely, some people are more prone to iron deficiency and may find it difficult. But there is a lack of research on the topic so there isn't much one can say until its studied.
brimstoneSalad wrote: Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:49 pm You mean of non-heme iron?
Yes, I meant non-heme iron there.
brimstoneSalad wrote: Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:49 pm The first is pretty speculative (any clinical examples?) and has to do with sequestration to prevent infection as far as I can tell and should not preclude non-heme sources as viable, the second has to do with internal regulation and results in a rare condition of iron-refractory anemia, which doesn't respond to oral iron.
They were just intended to be examples, there are a variety of gene variants that have been discovered and likely more than haven't been discovered yet.

But I'm not trying to argue that some people can only get iron from heme sources just that meeting iron needs is more difficult with plant-based diets and that is likely what people have in mind.

brimstoneSalad wrote: Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:49 pm They also exist due to experimental evidence of adequacy. There's no reason to shun them on the basis that we don't have all of the information explaining the variance.
They are evidence based but the current guidelines are also very limiting due to the immaturity of the underlying science. Also the guidelines were all based on people consuming omnivorous diets and do not necessarily translate to plant-based diets which is just the issue here. Iron is one example where the guidelines for vegans are likely higher than non-vegans. And beyond the the RDA for vegans, we also don't know whether there is a subset of the population that will have trouble meeting their iron needs on a vegan diet as a whole. What few studies exist on vegan diets are all observational studies that suffer from survivorship bias (i.e., if someone is having issues with iron they are likely to give up the diet).

brimstoneSalad wrote: Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:49 pm The same would be expected for low-phytate plant proteins, like mock meats or perhaps fermented products.
The proteins in mock meats are significantly different so there is no reason to expect that, this is something you'd have to demonstrate in a similar type of study. Mock meats are made from isolated legume and grain proteinss, if those proteins enhanced absorption they would do it in the whole food but that isn't what you find.
brimstoneSalad wrote: Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:49 pm Double isn't that much. Upon what basis do you believe this is not something vitamin C is capable of?
Based on studies that looked at actual meals rather than synthetic meals:

https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/73/1/93/4729737

The impact of vitamin C in actual meals seems to be low to nothing.
I'm here to exploit you schmucks into demonstrating the blatant anti-intellectualism in the vegan community and the reality of veganism. But I can do that with any user name.
User avatar
brimstoneSalad
neither stone nor salad
Posts: 10273
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 9:20 am
Diet: Vegan

Re: "The vegan diet will kill me because heme iron!!!" said a meat eater

Post by brimstoneSalad »

carnap wrote: Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:17 am But there is a reason to believe, namely, some people are more prone to iron deficiency and may find it difficult.
We already know that's true for heavy periods. It's not particularly difficult to take a supplement and/or drink some orange juice with a meal.

The point I was emphasizing is that none of these genetic or environmental variables affect non-heme iron specifically, so this is just an issue of consuming a little more than some other people might need (or extra vitamin C which does affect non-heme, in a good way). And it's not that much more.
carnap wrote: Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:17 amThey were just intended to be examples, there are a variety of gene variants that have been discovered and likely more than haven't been discovered yet.
It will be very exciting when we can send in a saliva sample and get a full gene profile to help us balance our nutritional needs without having to over-shoot on things.
carnap wrote: Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:17 amBut I'm not trying to argue that some people can only get iron from heme sources just that meeting iron needs is more difficult with plant-based diets and that is likely what people have in mind.
Sure, that's true, but the difficulty increase is pretty marginal unless you're comparing it to somebody who eats huge amounts of red meat.
Anybody otherwise eating healthfully and limiting meat consumption could potentially have the same issues (more likely pre-menopausal women).
The chances are just very low, and the fix is pretty easy. It can be as easy as switching to a multi with iron instead of one without and drinking OJ with your dinner or something along those lines.

I don't think it's ever something men need to worry about, particularly since we don't see iron deficiency in vegetarian men in the developed world (although men may need to be mindful of zinc consumption).
carnap wrote: Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:17 amAlso the guidelines were all based on people consuming omnivorous diets and do not necessarily translate to plant-based diets which is just the issue here.
IIRC, guidelines recommend vegetarians and vegans consume 1.8 times more iron due to evidence based differences in absorption.
So, this is already accounted for. If a vegan or vegetarian is having trouble, it could make sense to aim for that, and a multi can help.
carnap wrote: Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:17 amIron is one example where the guidelines for vegans are likely higher than non-vegans.
They are. Or higher than non-vegetarians.
carnap wrote: Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:17 amAnd beyond the the RDA for vegans, we also don't know whether there is a subset of the population that will have trouble meeting their iron needs on a vegan diet as a whole.
We know there is: pre-menopausal women with heavy periods.
carnap wrote: Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:17 amWhat few studies exist on vegan diets are all observational studies that suffer from survivorship bias (i.e., if someone is having issues with iron they are likely to give up the diet).
There are plenty of vegans who have issues with iron and correct them with diet improvement and supplementation.
I think you underestimate the determination of some vegans and the amount of case study knowledge that exists among dietitians. Not everybody just quits when they experience problems.

There doesn't seem to be a plausible explanation for the absence of case reports on people who were unable to correct iron deficiency from vegan dietitians aside from such cases just not existing or being so profoundly rare nobody with such an issue has sought help.
We could speculate that maybe some kind of common genetic propensity for iron deficiency also changes behavior and creates a state of psychopathy in which the person's reasons for going vegan in the first place evaporate with his or her empathy, thus making the person uninterested in seeking help, but that doesn't seem plausible.
carnap wrote: Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:17 amif those proteins enhanced absorption they would do it in the whole food but that isn't what you find.
What??? No, precisely the opposite.
The point of the efficacy of that protein is that an impediment to absorption has been removed. The study YOU linked to discussed the same possibility for chicken due to the unusual results.

Isolated bean protein would improve absorption from other food more than whole beans because the isolated form has the impediment (phytates) removed. Just as was speculated with respect to the chicken protein in the study.
carnap wrote: Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:17 amBased on studies that looked at actual meals rather than synthetic meals:
"Actual meals"? What? You think all of the other studies gave people fake food or something?

Cherry picking one small study to disprove the recommendations of professional dietitians based on overwhelming controlled studies isn't very convincing.
It's much more likely that the study was poorly designed and/or incorrectly interpreted. Both seem to be the case here, as you're misapplying it and using a double standard.

The study you linked to earlier wasn't on "actual meals", and this very study seems to contradict your claim that meat is more effective.
The strongest association was with phosphorus (19%), followed by ascorbic acid (8%) and animal tissue (4%).
Phosphorus was a negative association, of course, the other two positive. Vitamin C beat meat in "actual meals" in terms of having a stronger statistical association with absorption.
carnap wrote: Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:17 amhttps://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/73/1/93/4729737
Yes, I've seen this study. It's on 12 people, and it looks like a poor study full of confounding variables and self-reporting.

I can't believe you're seriously referencing that expecting that it overturns consensus.

Do I really need to break down that study in detail? I can't do it now, but to start it wasn't on vegetarians or vegans and we already know that vitamin C is less meaningful to absorption in a meat containing diet vs. a vegan one with higher phytates and (often) less protein. And despite that it still seems to contradict your claims...

So which is it? Do only studies on "actual meals" count in your view? And if so, why did you link to that controlled study before to present evidence for the effect of meat on non-heme absorption?
Post Reply