Why vegans are holding back veganism

[Roman0vmarisa]

Just a quick background- I am 25, almost 26. When I was 9 I decided to be a vegetarian. I actually did cut out all animal products off and on for a few years, not knowing much about the dairy industry, but just because I knew it was healthier. When I was 22 I finally went vegan.

Never have I witnessed people so passionate and selfless about animals hold back ending animal slaughter. Turning non-vegans vegan and making veganism more accessible, ultimately ending animal exploitation, should be priority to all of us.

Not long ago when Daiya was acquired by Otsuka, a huge amount of vegans promised to boycott Daiya. If you don't know, the big Pharma company still tests on animals. Many vegans made the argument that by this, Daiya now 'tests on animals,' and the company is no longer truly vegan. However, the acquisition will increase Daiya's reach, making vegan products more accessible outside of North America. Vegans boycotting a vegan company? What if Daiya went out of business because 'vegans' are boycotting the products, leading to people outside of North America picking up regular cheese instead of the cruelty free stuff? I would blame every single vegan who decided boycotting Daiya was a good idea.

Cultured meat- I've already come across this topic here several times so I won't go too much into this but- why in the world would vegans not support cultured meat, potentially replacing meat that comes from slaughtered animals? Starting cells are taken painlessly from live animals, they are put into a culture media where they start to proliferate and grow, independently from the animal. Cultured meat could also have financial, health, animal welfare and environmental advantages over traditional meat. Though, some vegans choose not to support this. I probably wouldn't eat cultured meat myself because I don't really have a desire to, but I support it and support other people eating it too.

Though these are just a couple examples, I see vegans everyday fighting over nonsensical things on the internet, scaring potential vegans away, shaming vegetarians and sharing "fake news" about why vegans shouldn't be supporting some company or product, like the impossible burger for example. I'm tired of it. If I weren't vegan myself and saw how a lot of vegans behave on the internet, I would be scared that if I went vegan, I would be insane like that too. I have to say though that I know a lot of vegans in person and I don't have many that I dislike. Most of my very close friends are vegan... and rational. I get that grief of awareness can be a thing when someone first goes vegan and that there are a lot of keyboard warriors who get off on lashing out at other people, but it makes vegans and veganism in general look REALLY bad. Vegans may be passionate about 'veganism,' but they aren't logically thinking how their actions and words look from the outside in, which is probably the most important, in order to get MORE people to be vegan... and it's really hurting this movement.

Vegans are holding veganism back and the animals are paying for it.

[Dream Sphere]

I think you have a good outlook on how to be an effective advocate for veganism, Roman0vmarisa, which many members here share.

There's too much focus on perceived "purity" among some vegans where there are little to no consequential benefits or harm reductions from staying "pure."

Showing that veganism is very accessible is one of the most important issues ethical vegan advocates face. So picking these ridiculous battles against parent companies or them being against non-harmful use of something to do with animals like cultured meat (in the cases where the culturing process/acquisition of what's needed doesn't harm animals,) typically does more harm than good to the perception of and adoption of the vegan movement/lifestyle.

As I've heard others say, getting to around 99% of your goals in harm reduction could really be just about half the work of completely being 100% pure in not supporting anything potentially harmful. All else being the same, getting 10 people to go 99% is better than getting 9 to 100%, and I imagine a far more lopsided split of people would be willing to go 99% than 100%.

So, I think we shouldn't treat ultra pure veganism as a baseline at all and really focus on getting everyone to improve towards harm reduction on a personal level and treat normal veganism as an in-the-ballpark sort of goal which can be improved upon, but what really matters is that they're generally moving in a good direction rather than made it across the finish line already which some people won't be able to do which would probably get them disheartened in their efforts and quit trying to do better. E.g. I would rather have a person who for half of their existence had accomplished 50% harm reduction and 90% for the second half, rather than someone for a third doing 50%, next third doing 100%, and final third doing 40%.

So yeah, I think that making it accessible by being supportive and thoughtful to veg-curious people and not making the "baseline" goal seem insurmountable would go a long way to improving the situation for people interested in doing better to actually do better with the improved support and lack of exclusion on minor or non-issues from the community.


Edit: I kinda got carried away and went a bit off-topic, since a lot of these issues that the "purist" vegans bring up really aren't all that virtuous or beneficial anyways.

[Lay Vegan]

Great post!

Unfortunately, some vegans are so blinded by ideological purity that this can lead them to make rash decisions that actually hurt the movement and the animals.

Whether it be demanding that servers change their gloves at restaurants before serving them food, drilling chefs about whether or not their food was cooked on a pan used to cook meat and dairy, screaming at fellow vegans that adopting animals isn't vegan, or boycotting vegan products because they are owned by larger non-vegan companies, these only serve to alienate everyone and don't actually help animals. In fact, this discourages store owners, chefs, and companies from offering vegan products, and can hurt animals.

As you pointed out, the decision to boycott Daiya, because its parent company Otsuka tests on animals, would not only be unreasonable but also counterproductive to the vegan movement. It isn't likely that Daiya cheese sales has an impact on animal testing procedures for their medications. Should Daiya's sales and profit decline, the company would just drop the brand and continue testing on animals.

But worse, as you mentioned, it could hurt the movement, and inhibit the spread of veganism around the world, and particularly in the Asian Market (Ostsuka is a Japanese-based company). Lactose intolerance is fairly high in Asia, and it affects nearly 90% of some Asian populations. It also runs high in groups of West Africans, Arabs, and Southern Europeans.

https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/lactose-intolerance#statistics

Boycotting Diaya would mean suppressing the ability for a vegan lactose-free product to prosper in a market that desperately needs it. This literally inhibits the growth and awareness of veganism. Large companies have bigger distribution channels and a bigger consumer base. Allowing Daiya Cheese and other products to be acquired by bigger, more influential companies only makes veganism more achievable and vegan products more accessible to the public.

Reducing harm matters than ideological purity. Supporting Daiya Chese would produce less harm than boycotting the company, and shutting down a market that has the potential to help change lives in Asia.

The pseudoscience thing is an entirely separate topic. For some reason, many people are drawn to the vegan movement because they believe that veganism is the "natural" diet, or that humans are frugivores. People also attempt to associate veganism with harmful fringe diets (raw, keito, 80/10/10) or fringe ideologies, like antinatalism, flat earth, & nazism). All of these are bad for veganism and for the animals.

We can help counter the bullshit by having open and honest dialogue with others, acknowledging the pitfalls of veganism and giving them sound information backed by science. This also means pointing them in the direction of qualified experts/scientific organizations, rather than "playing" doctor or dietitian. We should also call out bullshit when we see it, including with other vegans. When vegans cherry-pick what the science says to fit their narrative, call it out. When vegans try to use veganism as a justification to promote bigotry, call it out. Even when vegans are being unreasonable by drilling servers about every ounce of possible non vegan micro ingredient in some food, we should discourage this behavior.

None of this reduces harm to animals, and reducing harm matters more than ideological purity.

[PsYcHo]

The "militant" Vegans you're referring to strangely enough brought me here, but not in a positive way. Researching an unrelated topic on youtube, I checked out the poster's (TheVeganAtheist) other videos. I was impartial about them, but it led me to look into other Vegan's videos, and many of them were the meanest, most condescending people I ever had the misfortune to watch.

I initially came here to see what asinine things the Vegans would be yelling about. I was genuinely surprised to find the Vegans here not only welcoming, but sharing a similar view as yours, that aggressive Vegans are holding back Veganism. It even made me (someone whose hunted and killed animals personally for food) consider my own diet, and I made several changes I would never have considered beforehand.

If all Vegans were more like Lay Vegan, Dream Sphere, and yourself (not to mention many others on this forum that haven't responded to this thread yet), people like myself would likely be more inclined to at least try and reduce the harm we cause.

[carnap]

Lactose intolerance is fairly high in Asia, and it affects nearly 90% of some Asian populations. It also runs high in groups of West Africans, Arabs, and Southern Europeans.

Boycotting Diaya would mean suppressing the ability for a vegan lactose-free product to prosper in a market that desperately needs it.

Cheese contains little to no lactose so isn't an issue with those with lactose intolerance. Also traditional Asian cuisine makes little to no use for cheese so there is no need for a weird highly processed version of something that isn't part of their cuisine in the first place.

The best way to prevent Asians from consuming dairy is to avoid western influence in their diet...not the introduction of fake dairy products that are little more than junk food.

[Lay Vegan]

Cheese contains little to no lactose so isn't an issue with those with lactose intolerance. Also traditional Asian cuisine makes little to no use for cheese so there is no need for a weird highly processed version of something that isn't part of their cuisine in the first place.

This depends on how intolerant they are, and the level of the sugar in the cheese. Aged cheese with less than .5 grams of lactose might not pose as much of a problem as someone. The softer cheeses (mozzarella comes to mind) will cause discomfort to sensitive lactose intolerant people. I happen to be someone who is sensitive to most cheeses, so it's always been more convenient to purchase vegan. Given that some adult populations in Asia have intolerance levels up to 90% it would be more convenient for them as well.

The best way to prevent Asians from consuming dairy is to avoid western influence in their diet...not the introduction of fake dairy products that are little more than junk food.

This is a silly proposition, considering that developed nations like Japan and South Korea, and parts of China are already extremely "westernized." Unfortunately, it's very difficult staunching foreign influence of music, clothing, and food in this day and age. Many asians, despite their high level of intolerance for diary products, have already developed a taste for them.

[carnap]

This depends on how intolerant they are, and the level of the sugar in the cheese. Aged cheese with less than .5 grams of lactose might not pose as much of a problem as someone. The softer cheeses (mozzarella comes to mind) will cause discomfort to sensitive lactose intolerant people.

Even if someone has no ability to digest lactose cheese is unlikely to be an issue, at worst it would produce a little extra gas. All that happens when you're lactose intolerant is that you're body cannot break down lactose in your small intestine so it moves down to your colon where it gets fermented just like fiber would be. People that report issues with cheese other than some gas likely have other issues with dairy (allergy, etc).

This is a silly proposition, considering that developed nations like Japan and South Korea, and parts of China are already extremely "westernized." Unfortunately, it's very difficult staunching foreign influence of music, clothing, and food in this day and age. Many asians, despite their high level of intolerance for diary products, have already developed a taste for them.

While there has been some influence the idea that they've been "extremely westernized" isn't accurate. But the topic here is food and their diet is not very westernized, cheese hasn't made its way into a standard part of their diet just as tofu hasn't in the west.

So assuming that someone in Asia is motivated to eliminate dairy in the first place, why would they want to replace cheese with some processed mock food (which is little more than junk food) rather than just eat their more traditional foods which are widely available throughout their nation?

There is a major difference here, dairy is systematically used in western countries but not Asian. Its very easy to avoid dairy in Asian cultures while dairy is one of the backbones of many western diets. So mock dairy products have a vastly larger appeal in western nations than Asian ones, but even in western nations its problematic. Dairy isn't just an arbitrary food in the western diet, instead its a key source of certain nutrients and generally speaking mock dairy doesn't provide a good substitute (daiya, in particular, has no nutritional value...its just junk food). So a vegan eating mock cheese here and there to get their "cheese fix" is unlikely to be an issue, but replacing mock dairy with real dairy throughout your typical western diet results in diet with noticeably lower nutritional quality.


So really, products like Daiya aren't important for anybody really. Its a niche product for people that won't or cannot eat dairy that want a "cheese fix", its by no means a reasonable substitute for the use of cheese in people's diet. Replacing dairy in the western diet is fairly difficult because there is no good functional substitute, on the other hand there are functional substitutes (and quasi-nutritional) substitutes for meat.

[Lay Vegan]

Even if someone has no ability to digest lactose cheese is unlikely to be an issue, at worst it would produce a little extra gas. People that report issues with cheese other than some gas likely have other issues with dairy (allergy, etc).

As someone who is lactose intolerant, I can confirm to you that consuming cheese causes immense discomfort, bloating, gas etc. Some types of cheeses are bigger evils than others, particularly softer cheeses like mozzarella, which is why even when I was vegetarian I always opted for vegan/cheesless pizza. Hence why supporting the Daiya cheese market in Asia is so important, where lactose intolerance rates are unequivocally high.

But the topic here is food and their diet is not very westernized, cheese hasn't made its way into a standard part of their diet just as tofu hasn't in the west.

Japan and South Korea in particular are indeed "westernized" nations in that westerners have influenced many aspects of their lives. Westerners introduced democracy (although Japan is technically a democratic monarchy) industrialization, the free-market system, and the Gregorian calendar.

In regard to food, western fast food chains (like McDonalds and Starbucks) and companies are quite present and in some cases dominate certain parts of Asia. And cuisine has certainly been affected as well. South Koreans are harboring a new taste for cheeses in their food and the cheese industry is one of the fastest growing markets there. Besides South Korea, Japan is the largest importer of cheese in East Asia. This is, in part, the consequence of increased demand in other western staples, like cheeseburgers and pizza. And all despite the fact that lactose intolerance is highest in the part of the world, though as you mentioned, it has lower amounts of lactose, so more people can tolerate it better than other dairy products.

https://www.cnbc.com/2015/11/15/cutting-down-on-kimchi-south-korea-cheese-imports-soar-as-trade-deals-open-door.html

So assuming that someone in Asia is motivated to eliminate dairy in the first place, why would they want to replace cheese with some processed mock food (which is little more than junk food) rather than just eat their more traditional foods which are widely available throughout their nation?

There could be several factors at play. Cultural influence, convenience, newly acquired taste for hyper-palatable junk food etc.

There is a major difference here, dairy is systematically used in western countries but not Asian. Its very easy to avoid dairy in Asian cultures while dairy is one of the backbones of many western diets.

So a vegan eating mock cheese here and there to get their "cheese fix" is unlikely to be an issue, but replacing mock dairy with real dairy throughout your typical western diet results in diet with noticeably lower nutritional quality.

Cheese is a junk food, there's no doubt about that. But I don't care. We don't typically eat cheese because it's healthy or nutritional, but because it's palatable. This is why we supplement real food with cheese, rather than eat cheese meals. Eating processed foods in moderation is fine, so long as people are taking care to get enough nutrients through actual food. Ultimately, if people want to fill up on junk food, that's on them.

I think you're missing the entire purpose of this conversation.

What I'm concerned with is the growing taste and demand for an animal product (which happens in this case to be cheese) and the potential harm this brings animals who are subjected to the horrors of industry practices.

I hope we don't have to have another conversation on the basic's on supply and demand. The higher the demand in cheese production, the higher the quantity of cheese that companies must supply in the market. This means an increased breeding of cows, an increased amount of suffering due to brutal standard practices, an increased consumption of resources, and an increased amount of greenhouse gas emissions released in the atmosphere.

By supporting the growth of dairy-free alternatives in the market (like Daiya cheese) vegans are helping to decrease demand in animal products while creating an alternative market. As stated before, such a product has special potential to grow in Asian countries, where lactose interlace is high, and people are likely to seek diary-free alternatives.

[carnap]

As someone who is lactose intolerant, I can confirm to you that consuming cheese causes immense discomfort, bloating, gas etc.

I know many people with lactose intolerance and they can eat cheese just fine, if someone is getting "immense discomfort" from cheese the reason for that is very unlikely to be related to lactose intolerance. If consuming cheese caused "immense discomfort" in people with lactose intolerance few people would be eating cheese in Asia to begin with.

Japan and South Korea in particular are indeed "westernized" nations in that westerners have influenced many aspects of their lives. Westerners introduced democracy (although Japan is technically a democratic monarchy) industrialization, the free-market system, and the Gregorian calendar.

I've never suggested there has been no influence, just that they their culture hasn't been "westernized". Though "free-markets" are hardly a western invention, in fact, the first clear use of money was in China and Asian culture has had influence on the west over the last thousand of years.

In regard to food, western fast food chains (like McDonalds and Starbucks) and companies are quite present and in some cases dominate certain parts of Asia. And cuisine has certainly been affected as well. South Koreans are harboring a new taste for cheeses in their food and the cheese industry is one of the fastest growing markets there. Besides South Korea, Japan is the largest importer of cheese in East Asia.

They are present, but their menus change from culture to culture based on local culinary practices. But just because people eat American or western style foods in Asia doesn't mean their diet is being "westernized", it just means their enjoying the food from another culture. My statements were about their cuisine and Chinese, Japanese, etc cuisine remains relatively free from dairy products. And my point was never that they aren't eating any cheese, but rather the best way to keep Asians from eating more dairy products is to emphasize traditional dietary practices which is something still very easy to do in practice. I see no reason to believe that Asians will, in general, have any interest in replacing real cheese for some highly processed mock alternative food.

Cheese is a junk food, there's no doubt about that. But I don't care. We don't typically eat cheese because it's healthy or nutritional, but because it's palatable. This is why we supplement real food with cheese, rather than eat cheese meals.

Cheese is by no means a junk food, cheese is a good source of protein and various nutrients. Not the most nutrient dense foods but definitely not a "junk food" which is a food that is rich in calories but nothing else. Dairy isn't a part of the western diet because "its palatable", in fact, dairy was such an important food source that Europeans adapted to its consumption by becoming lactose tolerant. Dairy plays a particular nutritional role in the western diet, if you remove dairy that role has to be replaced by other foods.

I have no idea what you mean when you say we "supplement" real food with cheese, cheese is "real food". You mean we eat other foods with cheese? Sure....you can say the same about any food.

By supporting the growth of dairy-free alternatives in the market (like Daiya cheese) vegans are helping to decrease demand in animal products while creating an alternative market. As stated before, such a product has special potential to grow in Asian countries, where lactose interlace is high, and people are likely to seek diary-free alternatives.

My comment was initially about your comment about Asia, again, the idea that a fake cheese product has "special potential" is a culture that doesn't traditionally consume cheese is strange. They aren't eating cheese because its part of their culture like people in the west, they are eating it for the novelty and why would they want to eat the fake version? Your answer seems to be "lactose intolerance" but if that had the impact you're claiming they wouldn't eat it in the first place.

The point of my secondary claim , namely the usefulness of fake cheese in western cultures, wasn't about whether processed foods are "healthy" or not but instead whether mock dairy products actually provide a good nutritional substitute for dairy. My claim is that they do not and as such mock dairy is of very limited value, basically a fringe food for vegans. Though I would partly exempt plant-based milks from that because they, unlike a lot of other mock dairy, have been specifically fortified to provide at least some of the key nutrients you'd get from regular milk. Though most are still too low in protein to be a good substitute....basically just fortified soy milk is a reasonable substitute for milk.

Maybe western vegans should promote soy milk in Asia.......oh wait.

[PsYcHo]

Just to make a small point here, this thread is titled Why vegans are holding back veganism?.....

Seems to be a whole lotta arguing about cheese in the last several post. Like a general topic suddenly evolved into a very specific one. (Which would make a good topic in itself.....hint hint )

I don't think Roman0vmarisa intended to make a topic about lactose intolerance here.