Why vegans are holding back veganism

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Jamie in Chile
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Re: Why vegans are holding back veganism

Post by Jamie in Chile »

I broadly agree with the original post. I think purist veganism advocacy may make sense letter when say vegans are already 50% of the population and vegetarians 75%.

But your post might give the impression that you are criticising most vegans, I think you are actually criticising a minority, probably a large minority admittedly, that have this type of attidude and the minority gets in the news for doing aggressive protests, and is more present on you tube and facebook, and therefore may appear as the face of veganism, and look like they are the majority, to vegans and non-vegans alike.

It's similar in face to face interactions with vegans, the in your face vegan gets noticed and remembered more, the quiet one less so.

I notice the vegan on vegan arguments are not really present so far in the mainstream media in the US and the UK which thankfully has not focused on it.
carnap
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Re: Why vegans are holding back veganism

Post by carnap »

PsYcHo wrote: Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:44 pm Seems to be a whole lotta arguing about cheese in the last several post. Like a general topic suddenly evolved into a very specific one. (Which would make a good topic in itself.....hint hint :idea: )
Cheese came up because the OP used daiya has an example of vegans hurting veganism. There is a general point to the specific discussion, namely, does what happens to a niche vegan product really matter for mainstream society? If vegans boycott a vegan product are they really hurting anything beyond the company that produces it?
I'm here to exploit you schmucks into demonstrating the blatant anti-intellectualism in the vegan community and the reality of veganism. But I can do that with any user name.
Roman0vmarisa
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Re: Why vegans are holding back veganism

Post by Roman0vmarisa »

carnap wrote: Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:11 pm
PsYcHo wrote: Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:44 pm Seems to be a whole lotta arguing about cheese in the last several post. Like a general topic suddenly evolved into a very specific one. (Which would make a good topic in itself.....hint hint :idea: )
Cheese came up because the OP used daiya has an example of vegans hurting veganism. There is a general point to the specific discussion, namely, does what happens to a niche vegan product really matter for mainstream society? If vegans boycott a vegan product are they really hurting anything beyond the company that produces it?
There are people who are not completely vegan but are trying to cut some or all dairy products out of their diet. When there’s a vegan cheese option, they buy that instead. A lot of European countries consume MORE cheese than the United States. I lived in Germany and cheese is eaten with most meals- there is also a huge vegan presence there now too, and growing. So it’s important for vegans to not boycott vegan products and companies like Daiya, unless you want some people to pick up a pack of regular cheese instead? Otsuka operates in many countries, not just Japan, or Asia in general...

I’m still unsure of the point you’re trying to make other than to narrow in and challenge what Lay Vegan said? There is so much more to this post than the Daiya acquisition fiasco. Daiya is just ONE example... and a recent one... and one that I’ve seen a lot of people promise not to continue to support, which is a problem. Even if there’s potential for less demand of animal products, isn’t that a good enough reason?
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Re: Why vegans are holding back veganism

Post by carnap »

Roman0vmarisa wrote: Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:51 pm There are people who are not completely vegan but are trying to cut some or all dairy products out of their diet. When there’s a vegan cheese option, they buy that instead.
But that is an assumption, what is interest in fake cheese products among people that aren't vegan? At least in the US plant-based milks have done relatively well but the motivation doesn't seem to have anything to do with avoiding dairy products but rather that people seem to just like them better. Which isn't that surprising, many of the products are misleading and little more than sugar water while milk is a bit of an acquired taste.
Roman0vmarisa wrote: Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:51 pm So it’s important for vegans to not boycott vegan products and companies like Daiya, unless you want some people to pick up a pack of regular cheese instead?
Part of what I was discussing is that this is a false equivalence, Daiya and similar products aren't serious replacements for cheese and have little value in people's diets beyond providing a "cheese fix" for those that are dedicated to avoiding dairy. So while they may make some vegans and people with dairy allergies happy from a boarder perspective what makes them so important that anybody should be concerned about their survival if it conflicts with what the believe?
Roman0vmarisa wrote: Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:51 pm I’m still unsure of the point you’re trying to make other than to narrow in and challenge what Lay Vegan said? There is so much more to this post than the Daiya acquisition fiasco. Daiya is just ONE example... and a recent one...
The general point is that vegans (or anybody else) shouldn't feel obligated to support some product or business just because its vegan, if the product or business conflicts with what they believe or think is best why should they pretend otherwise?
I'm here to exploit you schmucks into demonstrating the blatant anti-intellectualism in the vegan community and the reality of veganism. But I can do that with any user name.
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Re: Why vegans are holding back veganism

Post by Roman0vmarisa »

“Part of what I was discussing is that this is a false equivalence, Daiya and similar products aren't serious replacements for cheese and have little value in people's diets beyond providing a "cheese fix" for those that are dedicated to avoiding dairy.”

But then this is also an assumption^

Vegans should absolutely feel obligated to support a vegan company with vegan products. The more vegan products, the increased possibility of less demand for slaughtered animals.

We can go back and forth on this forever. It seems that you really nit pick and narrow in on one subject and quite honestly I don’t agree with you at all. If we want animals to stop being slaughtered, we need to support vegan products, vegan companies and anything that could possibly be a cruelty free option for someone who might’ve picked up the real thing instead. You say what I’ve said are assumptions but you’re also making assumptions? I know plenty of people (non-vegans) inside and outside of the USA who, when they see a dairy free option like vegan cheese, they get that instead. If it’s not there, they get the regular cheese. For two of these people, daiya happens to be that cheese substitute they grab- and it’s the only substitute there. Let’s not for a second think they these small substitutions don’t lead to bigger changes and evolution. They do.
Roman0vmarisa
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Re: Why vegans are holding back veganism

Post by Roman0vmarisa »

“The general point is that vegans (or anybody else) shouldn't feel obligated to support some product or business just because its vegan, if the product or business conflicts with what they believe or think is best why should they pretend otherwise?”

Because the animals’ lives should be more important than our ‘feelings.’
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Lay Vegan
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Re: Why vegans are holding back veganism

Post by Lay Vegan »

Roman0vmarisa wrote: Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:18 pm Vegans should absolutely feel obligated to support a vegan company with vegan products. The more vegan products, the increased possibility of less demand for slaughtered animals.
Well said! And great job putting the conversation back on track.


Apologies if the exchange strayed a bit from your original post. When one breaks apart lengthy posts and narrows it down to specific points, the conversation tends to derail.
carnap
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Re: Why vegans are holding back veganism

Post by carnap »

Roman0vmarisa wrote: Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:18 pm But then this is also an assumption^
Part of what I said is factual, namely, Daiya and similar products have no nutritional value (they are just solidified oil/starch with some flavoring and dye) so they are by no means a functional substitute for cheese. The second part is an implication, since the products have no nutritional value (other than empty calories) what possible value could they have in people's diet? It would seem the only value is for those that want a "cheese fix" but cannot or will not eat regular cheese.
Roman0vmarisa wrote: Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:18 pm Vegans should absolutely feel obligated to support a vegan company with vegan products. The more vegan products, the increased possibility of less demand for slaughtered animals.
Yes that is what you think, but why? Why should someone support "more vegan products" if the particular case violates what they think on some level?
Roman0vmarisa wrote: Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:18 pm If we want animals to stop being slaughtered, we need to support vegan products, vegan companies and anything that could possibly be a cruelty free option for someone who might’ve picked up the real thing instead.
I think there is a key ambiguity here, namely, what is meant by "vegan product". Is an apple a vegan product? Well...its vegan right? So technically yes but nobody would think of it as "vegan"....its just an apple. So when people talk about "vegan products" they typically have in mind various mock animal products and its by no means the case that you need "vegan products" in this sense for people to forgo meat, cheese, etc.

The underlying idea seems to be that people are more likely to "go vegan" if mock animal products exist, but that is a big assumption. So why should anybody vegan or otherwise be obligated to share your particular assumptions and intuitions about matters? Disagreement among vegans isn't going to be resolved by people calling each other out but instead some sort of dedication to figuring things out.
Roman0vmarisa wrote: Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:21 pm Because the animals’ lives should be more important than our ‘feelings.’
The people you're criticizing will say the same thing.

In any case, over the years I've interacted with various sects of the vegan community and they all tend to think the other guy is wrong but nobody seems very interested in trying to resolve anything and instead they all isolate themselves in their own communities. The problems with veganism go well beyond some extreme vegans giving moderate vegans a bad name.
I'm here to exploit you schmucks into demonstrating the blatant anti-intellectualism in the vegan community and the reality of veganism. But I can do that with any user name.
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PsYcHo
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Re: Why vegans are holding back veganism

Post by PsYcHo »

carnap wrote: Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:59 am The problems with veganism go well beyond some extreme vegans giving moderate vegans a bad name.
Could you elaborate on this?
Alcohol may have been a factor.

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Lay Vegan
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Re: Why vegans are holding back veganism

Post by Lay Vegan »

carnap wrote: Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:59 am Part of what I said is factual, namely, Daiya and similar products have no nutritional value (they are just solidified oil/starch with some flavoring and dye) so they are by no means a functional substitute for cheese.

It's function is to taste like cheese, not to be nutritionally equivalent to cheese. Vegan cheese can be a part of a healthy diet, but it is not to be mistaken as a health food.

If vegans are looking for a cheese substitute that is slightly healthier and less processed I'd suggest something like Treeline Treenut cheese. Take their Scallion French-Style Soft Cheese for example. The ingredients are quite simple; cashew nuts, filtered Water, lemon juice dried scallions etc. A 1 ounce serving contains 90 calories, 4 grams of protein, (some iron) and only 1.5 grams of saturated fat. It doesn't compare to dairy cheese in terms of vitamin A or calcium, but requirements can easily be met through carrots, sweet potatoes, spinach, fortified plant milks, and of course, vitamin supplements.

carnap wrote: Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:59 am The second part is an implication, since the products have no nutritional value (other than empty calories) what possible value could they have in people's diet?
What vegans want is a vegan alternative product to dairy cheese that doesn't directly increase demand for animal byproducts. This "cheese fix" is cow-free cheese.
carnap wrote: Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:59 am It would seem the only value is for those that want a "cheese fix" but cannot or will not eat regular cheese.
Correct!

But do you know why we, as vegans, avoid dairy products?

carnap wrote: Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:59 am Yes that is what you think, but why? Why should someone support "more vegan products" if the particular case violates what they think on some level?
Not sure what you mean here.

Let's try to remain on topic.

If you read the original post thoroughly, you'll see that much of the vegan sentiment against Daiya foods is irrational. This boycott was initiated after the Japanese pharmaceutical company bought out Daiya Foods. Rather than seeing the potential for a vegan product to reach a much broader audience, many scoffed ay the decision, accusing Daiya Foods of "selling out." Some vegans believe that by not purchasing Daiya cheese, this will somehow discourage Ostsuka from testing their medication on animals. The fact is, Otsuka will continue testing on animals regardless. So not only is boycotting Daiya Foods ineffective, it also hurts the spread and normalization of veganism, and hurts the potential for a vegan product to compete against dairy cheese.

carnap wrote: Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:59 am Disagreement among vegans isn't going to be resolved by people calling each other out but instead some sort of dedication to figuring things out.
Disagreement is fine, as long as it doesn't encourage vegans to cause harm to the movement or animals. Vegans disagree about a lot of things, the ethics clean/in vitro meat, antinatalism, sentience of bivalves, oysters, and insects etc. and it's through reasoned and honest debate/discussion that we can find a solution and reach our goals.
carnap wrote: Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:59 am
Roman0vmarisa wrote: Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:21 pm Because the animals’ lives should be more important than our ‘feelings.’
The people you're criticizing will say the same thing.
Deontological vegans may think they're helping animals by boycotting Daiya Foods or asking servers to changer their gloves at restaurants, but they're really just stifling the spread of veganism and alienating non vegans, which makes restaurant owners not want to cater to vegans. See my comments higher up in the thread on this.
carnap wrote: Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:59 am The problems with veganism go well beyond some extreme vegans giving moderate vegans a bad name.
Would you like to elaborate? Moreover, if you'd like to discuss other problems you find with veganism, you should start a new thread where we can continue this debate.
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