Daughter and I mended our relationship.

[brimstoneSalad]

Most people new to any group are non-confrontational. What you consider patronizing, others might consider politeness. They may in fact have an opinion, but don't wish to express it....yet. I use a similar technique in daily life- "dealing with people in everyday social situations/ how to stay out of jail."

There are definitely times for it, but if you can't have a reasonable discussion about differences of opinion with a close family member that (to me) indicates a kind of shallow relationship, or not much of a bond if you're worried disagreement will harm the relationship.

We're all different, of course. I wouldn't tell everybody they have to argue about these things.

But for people like me, inator, and to some extent it sounds like Lay Vegan as well, it's important.

Does that mean it's true of 50% of vegans based on the sample here? Probably not. There may be a sample bias here for people who don't mind arguing about things. But it's something to consider.

[PsYcHo]

If you can't have a reasonable discussion about differences of opinion with a close family member that (to me) indicates a kind of shallow relationship, or not much of a bond if you're worried disagreement will harm the relationship.

Having been "fortunate" enough to study multiple different families growing up, I've learned the dynamics of discussion can be quite different.. (And I agree with you overall, but devils advocate/personal experience with non-confrontational family, etc.)

You and I both have strong opinions on certain subjects, and we are comfortable pointing out what we see as the other's flawed arguments; additionally, we don't hold a grudge and appreciate being told a truthful opinion. Everyone doesn't think like us. Many families walk on eggshells around each other because they are raised to believe that all conflicts (even civil ones) are to be avoided to provide for a harmonious family.

It's not being shallow if you have a deeply ingrained belief that saying something that may upset someone else is wrong; you care so much you don't want to even think about hurting them. Not the best path (in my opinion), but it is a path many families walk.

[inator]

I know this kind of suger coating comments isn't really necessary on this forum in general, at least not between regulars when they debate, but maybe for newbies or any sensitive topic involving vegan vs non-vegan debate or family issues it might be worth taking extra care.

Text doesn't convey tone, so going the extra mile to explain more clearly what you wish to convey could turn an interaction from "appearing" hostile to being clearly challenging of a particular point.

You two are definitely right that we should be more sensitive towards new people and more focused on maintaining a good conversation. Reading my first post again, I can see how it could have come off as harsh, even though at the time I was under the impression that I was just talking about my experiences and inferring "ifs" from there.

Looking at the original questions in the first thread, it's hard to imagine how someone could answer them without trying to put themselves into the shoes of the two people involved or talking about similar personal experiences. Perhaps a more extensive and gentle explanation of the arguments could have helped, though.

Most people new to any group are non-confrontational. What you consider patronizing, others might consider politeness. They may in fact have an opinion, but don't wish to express it....yet. I use a similar technique in daily life- "dealing with people in everyday social situations/ how to stay out of jail."

That's very true, however in this case we were talking about expressing these thoughts in the context of very close relationships, not on this forum. I know that's not easy to do either, but in this particular case it may have been a possible solution. That's why we brought it up.

[inator]

I was making the argument you're making too (sounds like we've had very similar problems). But after it was... rejected... I simplified it.

I see, that was the second proposed solution after the first one was rejected.

Some people would prefer the intellectual respect of an honest argument (and disagreement if there was any).
Others might prefer the anti-confrontational method of not bothering to form or share an opinion, and just be superficially supportive (In my view, patronizing and intellectually insulting, but some people prefer that).

Good summary, I feel the same way and was trying to convey that. A neutral wiki article on vegan/non-vegan interactions in the context of close relationships is a good idea. May save us a lot of arguing and stepping on each other's toes in the future.

As a side note, I have to say that analogies (like the funding terrorism one) seem to have a 50% success rate at best, and definitely less for people who are clearly more prone to getting offended. I would perhaps leave the comparisons to other social issues, no matter how reasonable, for later in the argument after first having gotten a feel of the conversation partner.

[deadeye68]

brimstone- how is my lack of an opinion on veganism intellectually disrespectful? Again you made more assumptions about my relationship with my child. Upon some research you aren't much different from this ask yourself that want's to debate with you. Yes you aren't cursing but you seem to care more about coming off as being correct ( even if you aren't) than trying to convey your actual message. And they way you convey your message is just as important as the message itself. But like this ask yourself child you seem to just want to be right. Perhaps you will mature out of it. I imagine being so confrontational all the time must be exhausting. I'd rather not engage with you anymore. But it has come to my understanding this is your forum so you're going to do as you please. Manners be damned It seems.

[brimstoneSalad]

deadeye68, I'm not even talking to you. This is a broader problem which, amazingly enough, is not just about you and your daughter.

If you don't want to engage, then don't initiate conflict like this out of nowhere.

[deadeye68]

you were talking about me though. Yes of course you will shrug off any criticism about you. Maybe you should indulge that other child on youtube. You are two sides of the same coin. you were the one who first made gross assumptions about me, my parenting and my relationship with my child. I did not start whatever this is. I'm simply asking you to have some manners or at least pretend to have some.

[PsYcHo]

I'd rather not engage with you anymore.

While trying to maintain a fair balance between supporting you and brimstone, I have in this thread mostly been trying to defend your position. I understand your getting upset when you feel someone is making assumptions concerning the relationship between you and your child.

I've offered several suggestion to try and keep the peace, but you absolutely cannot call out someone by name, then in the same paragraph say you no longer wish to engage with them. Now YOU are the one engaging brimstoneSalad.

I'm a deep south country boy, and for someone to mention manners, how damn rude is it to specifically speak about another person, then say you don't want them to speak back?

Drop the feud. It's childish at this point. I'd like to talk about other topics with you, but if you insist on holding onto this grudge you are just as worried about being right as you claim brimstone is.

[deadeye68]

he was the one making claims about me so yes im going to address him. It seems my daughter was correct about this forum. Why do you all seem to defend such rudeness?

[PsYcHo]

Why do you all seem to defend such rudeness?

Please explain at what point I have been rude to you. I've been trying to defend you this entire time! Emotions are high, but damn, can you not see that I'm trying to extend an olive branch with both hands? But when I try to advise you that you are welcome on this forum (Even brimstoneSalad made it clear you are 100% welcome here), you keep bringing up your conflict with brim. And inator went out of his way to apologize to you because he saw how his arguments may have been seen as aggressive.

And YOU specifically started a post with a question directed towards brimstoneSalad. Why would he not respond to a question directed specifically at him?

I don't give two shits if you like brimstoneSalad. Look into some of my posts, I argue with him all the damn time! Don't keep arguing with him if you don't want to engage with him!

There is a difference between rudeness and uncomfortable honesty. Like right now, I'm being honest in a way that may make you feel uncomfortable, but I am not being rude.

If you don't want to engage with brim, don't engage with brim. But don't call him out, and expect him not to reply.

This is the last post I'm going to make in this thread.

Hold a grudge if you wish, but try to set an example of the politeness you say brimstoneSalad is lacking. Stay out of this thread and let it die, and maybe jump into another discussion. I really wanted to hear your thoughts on my "Mass Shootings" thread.

Drop the feud! If you switch to another topic, anything said in this thread is moot. I won't bring it up. But if you post another response here, that will only make me (the person who has been trying to defend your arguments this entire time) realize you don't want to debate, you just want to bitch and complain.