Daughter and I mended our relationship.

[EquALLity]

You see, when you have no opinion on an issue that a loved one finds extremely important, or even claim that it's a non-issue, it will probably alienate that person even more than telling them their belief is wrong. You are not even considering their argument. You are making the issue look so unimportant that you can't even spare a thought on it. My father does something like that - he gladly cooks me vegan dishes when I'm visiting, and he will nod when I talk about anything having to do with ethics, but he will never engage me in a conversation about it. I respect other people who ask me about it and actively try to counteract my arguments much more than this lack of intellectual curiosity from my dad. I love him, but yes, I have lost some respect for him because of it.

I disagree... I feel very strongly about veganism, but I don't think people who have no opinion on veganism are offensive. Being neutral isn't the same is brushing off veganism as unimportant, it just means you personally don't have an opinion one way or the other about it. Also, I prefer someone to have no opinion rather than to be against veganism. Someone who has no opinion is not working against you, they just don't agree with you.

Could it be that he doesn't engage with you about veganism because he doesn't want to start an argument?

Sure, I may not want to engage in philosophical debate with the baker down the street, and superficial politeness has a certain function in these minimal social interactions. But I'd find it impossible to maintain a deep personal relationship without having conversations of substance. Smiling and nodding instead of analyzing the pros and the cons of another person's arguments shows that you're not taking them seriously. Perhaps this will come up again in your life in some form, and I hope you will show enough interest in the outside world to at least engage your loved ones in meaningful conversation as equals.

How is not supporting veganism the same as not treating a vegan family member as an equal?

[deadeye68]

I think some people here seem take my lack of opinion on veganism as a personal offense. This has happened a few times already. They seem to have do drawn a line in the sand. It's not a good approach If I may say so. It just makes me not want to further engage those people. Again not a blanket statement about veganism..just those individuals.

[PsYcHo]

That's a fair point. The only time I would care about your opinion, or lack thereof, on Veganism is if we were debating something Vegan.

We have other topics.... I spend the majority of time in "Other Discussions" or "Fun".

[inator]

I think some people here seem take my lack of opinion on veganism as a personal offense. This has happened a few times already. They seem to have do drawn a line in the sand. It's not a good approach If I may say so. It just makes me not want to further engage those people. Again not a blanket statement about veganism..just those individuals.

Don't worry, I have no reason to be offended by you. If I didn't make that clear in my comment I'm sorry. It seems that it was also not clear that I'm not talking about veganism specifically, it was a generalization about anything that your loved one may be passionate about. I hope you were also not offended and didn't take a simple exchange of opinions on relationships too personally.

I disagree... I feel very strongly about veganism, but I don't think people who have no opinion on veganism are offensive. Being neutral isn't the same is brushing off veganism as unimportant, it just means you personally don't have an opinion one way or the other about it.

I'm not talking specifically about veganism, and also not about any person you may encounter on a forum or on the street. It's about a loved one not taking the time to formulate a thought on an issue that is of importance to you. They can be neutral in the sense that, after some consideration, they haven't made up their mind about which way is best. This is perfectly fine, I also withhold judgement on many issues I don't have enough information on. But this is not the same as claiming it is a "non-issue" or having "no opinion" and that's that. Not being willing to formulate the slightest thought in conversation with you is in fact very similar to brushing the issue off and blocking you out. Do you not see it that way?

Also, I prefer someone to have no opinion rather than to be against veganism. Someone who has no opinion is not working against you, they just don't agree with you.

For pragmatic reasons you may be right, but in close relationships I personally prefer honest in depth discussions. My family generally prefers this too, and we are tolerant of our different points of view. It's the refusal to even have a reciprocal conversation about something that one of us cares about that doesn't come off well.

Could it be that he doesn't engage with you about veganism because he doesn't want to start an argument?

That's unlikely since I don't really argue (as in fight) about veganism, and he has no problem debating other important stuff. But for whatever reason, he gives the impression that this issue isn't even worth his time and I and the other vegan family member are silly to even consider it. Or that he feels defensive and would rather not think about it.
Being able to debate honestly about anything and to leave the ego out of it is a good thing.

How is not supporting veganism the same as not treating a vegan family member as an equal?

I don't mean that my loved one must support my veganism or any other interest. I'm not making the same point that brimstone did. Talking about something with curiosity and honesty is not the same as validating.

[deadeye68]

inator-When you make gross assumptions about me and my childs relationship yes it comes off as if I did something that offended you. Just because she was vegan for a time does not mean she is going to have the same thought processes as you. This has happened already with someone else on this forum. I came here to hear from vegans experiences with non vegan family members. Not to be scoffed at and have assumptions made about me for my lack of an opinion on the subject of veganism. Me lacking an opinion doesn't mean I don't care about how she feels about the subject. But it's over we mended the tiny rift and everything is ok.

[inator]

inator-When you make gross assumptions about me and my childs relationship yes it comes off as if I did something that offended you. Just because she was vegan for a time does not mean she is going to have the same thought processes as you. This has happened already with someone else on this forum. I came here to hear from vegans experiences with non vegan family members. Not to be scoffed at and have assumptions made about me for my lack of an opinion on the subject of veganism. Me lacking an opinion doesn't mean I don't care about how she feels about the subject. But it's over we mended the tiny rift and everything is ok.

I understand now, you mean that you were not indifferent about a topic that your daughter was passionate about, even though it seems she did get that impression ("She took my stance on having no opinion on veganism as me somehow scoffing it off as stupid."), and I also suggested she may have gotten that impression based on what you said. I don't think I've made assumptions about that. Had I been wrong, you could have easily corrected me with a little goodwill.

I'm still open to being corrected when I've made a wrong argument, and invite you to do so. Equallity is already doing a good job at formulating sensible counter-arguments. However, it is of course within your right to refrain from discussing opinions you don't already agree with, if that's what you prefer.
I did feel for you and your daughter when I read your original post and it's hard to understand what was so offensive.

[Jamie in Chile]

I think we did as a group (including myself) tend to make too many assumptions about what his daughter was thinking or about the relationship, so I can understand why this was annoying.

Maybe instead of writing things like "your daugther is thinking x because she feels y" as if it's fact we should have put more things like "one possible explanation of your daughter's behaviour is x, however of course I don't know her personally so it could be something else, you probably know her best "

I know this kind of suger coating comments isn't really necessary on this forum in general, at least not between regulars when they debate, but maybe for newbies or any sensitive topic involving vegan vs non-vegan debate or family issues it might be worth taking extra care.

Anyway, I could be wrong so it is just purely a suggestion!

[PsYcHo]

I know this kind of suger coating comments isn't really necessary on this forum in general, at least not between regulars when they debate, but maybe for newbies or any sensitive topic involving vegan vs non-vegan debate or family issues it might be worth taking extra care.

There is a difference between every person, so for someone you've never debated, I'm agreed that being more...gentle..initially may lead to more productive debates. Not to say that you shouldn't express your points, but trying to explain why you are making your points can go a long way towards turning what seems like a shouting match into a discussion. Text doesn't convey tone, so going the extra mile to explain more clearly what you wish to convey could turn an interaction from "appearing" hostile to being clearly challenging of a particular point.

I hope deadeye68 takes your point into consideration. We're all flawed, but often times we try to amend our flaws and learn from our mistakes.

[brimstoneSalad]

I don't mean that my loved one must support my veganism or any other interest. I'm not making the same point that brimstone did. Talking about something with curiosity and honesty is not the same as validating.

I was making the argument you're making too (sounds like we've had very similar problems). But after it was... rejected... I simplified it.

The BEST thing is recognition and support, so agreement with veganism and considering it positive; pretty much nobody would object to that (provided it's honest).

After that, it depends on personality type:

Some people would prefer the intellectual respect of an honest argument (and disagreement if there was any).
Others might prefer the anti-confrontational method of not bothering to form or share an opinion, and just be superficially supportive (In my view, patronizing and intellectually insulting, but some people prefer that).

To each his or her own, I suppose, with respect to arguing about it. But you can never go wrong with ideological support (although they may feel frustrated that you agree but don't change your behavior, that's another issue).

I also agree that there's a big difference between considered neutrality (which IS an opinion) and not having an opinion. I'll let you argue with EquALLity on that one though.

I'm thinking I should start a Wiki article on this topic, because it may be pretty useful (then in the future we can link people to a more impartially written piece rather than risk offending them in a touchy situation).
http://philosophicalvegan.com/wiki/index.php/Disowning_Nonvegans

[PsYcHo]

Some people would prefer the intellectual respect of an honest argument (and disagreement if there was any).
Others might prefer the anti-confrontational method of not bothering to form or share an opinion, and just be superficially supportive (In my view, patronizing and intellectually insulting, but some people prefer that).

Most people new to any group are non-confrontational. What you consider patronizing, others might consider politeness. They may in fact have an opinion, but don't wish to express it....yet. I use a similar technique in daily life- "dealing with people in everyday social situations/ how to stay out of jail."